The Injustice of Arminianism

OrthodoxyUSA

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 6, 2004
25,285
2,868
59
Tupelo, MS
Visit site
✟142,274.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Many accuse God of being, "unfair" in His election of some, but not all, people; however, they don't seem to understand that the alternative view in which God simply provides a way for men to be saved, but leaves them to their own devices, i.e., "free will", makes God out to be truly unjust because not all people have had equal opportunity in which to make their "choice".

The Biblical doctrine of election teaches that God shows mercy to some, and justice to the rest. He would be completely just in condemning all mankind, would He not?

The alternate, and errant, view is that God gives everyone a choice, assuming that every person who has every lived has had access to good preachers, godly teachers, Bibles in their language, Christlike neighbors. . . The reality is that many many millions have lived and died without ever hearing the gospel. How "fair" is that? (according to the Arminian view)

Do you hold to a view of salvation which makes God out to be unjust? How do you defend your position?

That's the trap laid by The Roman Catholic Church that Protestants get caught up in... it's an invalid argument because it misunderstands salvation. It adds to the story that there must be some payment for the injustice done to God the Father. This was first proposed by Anselm of Canterbury and later wrongly expounded upon by Jonathan Edwards book "Sinners in the hands of an angry God".
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rick Otto
Upvote 0

Wordkeeper

Newbie
Oct 1, 2013
4,285
477
✟83,580.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
unless you reject the hypostatic union in that Jesus was fully God and fully man I don't see your point.

Why should the Son be the only Person of the Godhood to relinquish attributes of the Godhood?

John 5:19
Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.
 
Upvote 0

Rick Otto

The Dude Abides
Nov 19, 2002
34,112
7,406
On The Prairie
✟29,593.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
What do you think these passages are saying?

Ezekiel 18:27

Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life.


Ezekiel 33:14

But when I say to the wicked, ‘You will surely die,’ and he turns from his sin and practices justice and righteousness,


Ezekiel 33:16

None of his sins that he has committed will be remembered against him. He has practiced justice and righteousness; he shall surely live.


Ezekiel 33:19
But when the wicked turns from his wickedness and practices justice and righteousness, he will live by them.
I think what you think what they are saying is that salvation is by works.
I also think that anyone would think exactly that if they ignored the context of God's sovereignity and how & why it is greater than the limited freedom of man's will.
Thanks for asking and expecting an answer without bothering to address any of what I said directly because it actually really helps in my character development, as discouraging of my hopes for good conversation it may be.
 
Upvote 0

Wordkeeper

Newbie
Oct 1, 2013
4,285
477
✟83,580.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I think what you think what they are saying is that salvation is by works.
I also think that anyone would think exactly that if they ignored the context of God's sovereignity and how & why it is greater than the limited freedom of man's will.
Thanks for asking and expecting an answer without bothering to address any of what I said directly because it actually really helps in my character development, as discouraging of my hopes for good conversation it may be.


Salvation has always been by faith.

It helps to lay out what that involves.

Abraham was promised that the world would be blessed through being in his seed.

The Jews took it to mean that those who were followers of Abraham’s beliefs would be the seed, so all those who wanted to be blessed would have to do was to become Jews.

But Paul clarifies that the criteria of who would be considered by God to be a child of Abraham would be faith, not circumcision. God considered Abraham as family even before he accepted circumcision.

Why was law added? To guard Israel, until Christ came and gave the new way of faith, leading to grace. Else they would have gone the way of Sodom and Gomorrah, because of the weakness of the flesh.

How did the Covenant of Law/Works work, bless, serve?

A believer would try to follow the law, fail and beg for mercy. That's why the option of the sin offerings were provided.

However, to make sin offerings, would imply that a believer confessed to being a sinner.

So the Covenant of works would be of no benefit if a Jew substituted the commandments of God for the traditions of men, for evil purposes, to serve Baal:

Mark 7:9-13
9He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10“For Moses said, ‘HONOR YOUR FATHER AND YOUR MOTHER’; and, ‘HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER, IS TO BE PUT TO DEATH’; 11but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’ 12you no longer permit him to do anything for hisfather or his mother; 13thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”


So the Covenant of Works/Law, served, blessed, protected a believer if he was faithful, believed in the commandments of God in their original form and tried to follow them. As seen in the parable of the Publican and the Pharisee:

Luke 18:9-14
9And He also told this parable to some people who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and viewed others with contempt:10“Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11“The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12‘I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.’ 13“But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’ 14“I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

It would be a healthy exercise to see how the Covenant of Grace works, serves, blesses, because we are now under the Covenant of Grace and not Covenant of Law, what Paul meant when he said you are under Grace, not Law.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Rick Otto

The Dude Abides
Nov 19, 2002
34,112
7,406
On The Prairie
✟29,593.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
The verse means that God wills the salvation of all people, as Christ was given for all people.

For orthodox Christians, you can draw a circle representing all the people God intended to save and all the people Christ was sent for. Part of that circle would have the saved and the rest the damned and there are no people outside of that circle. For Calvinists, God has one circle, those He willed to save and sent Christ for, which contains all the saved, and another circle, those God did not will to save and God did not send Christ for, which contains all the damned.

So God creates all people and divides them into two groups arbitrarily. God makes one group He will to save and have to go Heaven, and another group He wills not to save and goes to hell and someone calls this just?
Yes. I call it just. Who are we to question God's arbitration? Is the content of His creation up to Him or His creation? You posit the impossible. The lump of clay has no pre-existant self and no self created intent.
You violently twist the context when you ignore salvation was only for Israel when reading the contrasting "whole world" or "everyone", etc.
The ego cannot accept the fact it's very existence is not of it's own will.
 
Upvote 0

Rick Otto

The Dude Abides
Nov 19, 2002
34,112
7,406
On The Prairie
✟29,593.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Hee!Hee!If God meant it, it means God planned and executed it, including forcing Joseph's brothers!
How does that forcing work?

Hee,.... hee.

God does not need to force a man to sin. Simply withhold an amount of grace.


Ignorance of the difference between God being responsible for man's behavior and man being gulty of it. I am responsible for my child's behavior, not guilty of it.
 
Upvote 0

jimmyjimmy

Pardoned Rebel
Site Supporter
Jan 2, 2015
11,556
5,728
USA
✟234,973.00
Country
United States
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
That's the trap laid by The Roman Catholic Church that Protestants get caught up in... it's an invalid argument because it misunderstands salvation. It adds to the story that there must be some payment for the injustice done to God the Father. This was first proposed by Anselm of Canterbury and later wrongly expounded upon by Jonathan Edwards book "Sinners in the hands of an angry God".

If not for the mountain of biblical evidence proving otherwise, I might believe you.
 
Upvote 0

OrthodoxyUSA

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 6, 2004
25,285
2,868
59
Tupelo, MS
Visit site
✟142,274.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
If not for the mountain of biblical evidence proving otherwise, I might believe you.

It's very easy to get lost in all that... and the Christian teaching has been much simpler in the early centuries. Have you read any (1st two chapters) of the book I recommended?

I have been where you are now.

Forgive me...
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

OrthodoxyUSA

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 6, 2004
25,285
2,868
59
Tupelo, MS
Visit site
✟142,274.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
It exists in the Bible that the original churches passed down to us.

Find me an author between the 1st century and the 18th century that speaks of it that way.

Forgive me...
 
Upvote 0

S.O.J.I.A.

Dynamic UNO
Nov 6, 2016
4,280
2,641
Michigan
✟98,714.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Single
Why should the Son be the only Person of the Godhood to relinquish attributes of the Godhood?

John 5:19
Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.

his full power and glory was temporarily restrained for the purpose of the incarnation.

I don't see what this has to do with the topic at hand.
 
Upvote 0

OrthodoxyUSA

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 6, 2004
25,285
2,868
59
Tupelo, MS
Visit site
✟142,274.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
his full power and glory was temporarily restrained for the purpose of the incarnation.

I don't see what this has to do with the topic at hand.

Incorrect, and an ancient heretical teaching. Don't fall for that.

Forgive me...
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

OrthodoxyUSA

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 6, 2004
25,285
2,868
59
Tupelo, MS
Visit site
✟142,274.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
It exists in the Bible that the original churches passed down to us.

Please show me paying ransom to the Father in scripture.

Forgive me...
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

OrthodoxyUSA

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 6, 2004
25,285
2,868
59
Tupelo, MS
Visit site
✟142,274.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
if you want to debate the hypostatic union start another thread.[
Do you now find scripture authoritative? Interesting.

Sure I do, on a great many things. When there is a question though... Christ left us a Church, he did not write a book.

Forgive me...
 
Upvote 0