Why Did Jesus Come? Did He Actually Need To?

stuart lawrence said:

In I Peter 3:18-20 Peter tells us when Christ was put to death in the body he went and made proclamation of the message to those who had previously died.
Christ went to paradise, not heaven.
No one gets to heaven without Christ's death at Calvary. NO ONE

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This event in 1 Samuel is rather awsome concerning Samuel being disturbed.
I would bet he was surprised to see Jesus preaching to him.......

1Samuel 28:
11 Then the woman said, "Whom shall I bring up for you?" And he said, "Bring up Samuel for me."…
12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice; and the woman spoke to Saul, saying, "Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul."…
13 The king said to her, "Do not be afraid; but what do you see?" And the woman said to Saul, "I see a divine being coming up out of the earth."…
14 He said to her, "What is his form?" And she said, "An old man is coming up, and he is wrapped with a robe." And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground and did homage.…
15 Then Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?"

stuart lawrence said:

Jesus came to preach to sinners, not the righteous( he said)
I guess a lot of Christians today wouldn't have wanted to listen to him as that was the case.

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This is also what Jesus said.

Mat. 15:24
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Be Blessed

bling said:

Forgiveness of sin under the Old Testament for unintentional sins (Lev. 5 and other places) was given by God after correctly completing the atonement process with no mention of Christ.

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It's more than just being forgives sins, those under the Law continued to sin and needed an Atonement for their sins over and over.

Whereas, Jesus sacrifice and Atonement for our sins, Frees us from sin, we die to the Law which causes sin, we die to the flesh which sins, we die to sin.

All of this comes about through Baptism, we are dead with Christ.

We cannot sin because we are born of God.

Be Blessed

Hammster said:

Apparent God found it sufficient to let the statement stand. And I never said not implied that God took personal pleasure in torturing and murder. I quoted scripture. You are the one who drew the conclusion, erroneously I might add.

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This is like the pot calling the kettle black: the world is not the world, whosoever is not whosoever, everyone is not everyone, all is not all. We cannot just take one verse out of context and not interpret the meaning in light of all other verses (that is just good hermeneutics).

We can’t just ignore the other person’s explanation using other scripture and different translations of the verse and say “that is what the Bible said” without a logical explanation.

The translation you use says: “it pleased God to crush Him” so do you feel: God takes personal pleasure in torturing the innocent?

If you do not feel God is cruel and sadistic toward the innocent, then in light of other verses how do you interpret this partial verse?

JIMINZ said:

It's more than just being forgives sins, those under the Law continued to sin and needed an Atonement for their sins over and over.

Whereas, Jesus sacrifice and Atonement for our sins, Frees us from sin, we die to the Law which causes sin, we die to the flesh which sins, we die to sin.

All of this comes about through Baptism, we are dead with Christ.

We cannot sin because we are born of God.

Be Blessed

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I fully agree Christ did a lot more than the sacrifices did under the Old Law, but I was showing God had the Power and Love to forgive sins without Christ going to the cross and prior to Christ going to the cross, so if Christ is not required for God to forgive sins what did Christ provide is the question?

You seem to be suggesting: “We cannot sin because we are born of God.”, so do you feel Christians cannot quench the indwelling Holy Spirit and get involved in sinning?

Hammster said:

If it pleases God to crush Him, and we know that without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sin, then it's clear that the pleasure of crushing was because sin would be forgiven.

Don't forget that the Trinity is in union. For the joy set before Him, He endured the cross. And nobody took His life from Him. He laid it down willingly.

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These three verses taken alone do not explain what is meant by: “it pleases God to crush Him”.

You make it out again to be: God squeezing the blood out of Christ, so God can have the love and power to forgive, so is your God so weak and/or lacking in something, He has to have innocent blood to forgive?

Is Christ solving a problem God is having with forgiving or is Christ solving a problem humans are having and thus Christ is going to the cross for humans, which is pleasing to God?

What joy does Christ get in the end out of allowing Himself to be crucified?

bling said:

I fully agree Christ did a lot more than the sacrifices did under the Old Law, but I was showing God had the Power and Love to forgive sins without Christ going to the cross and prior to Christ going to the cross, so if Christ is not required for God to forgive sins what did Christ provide is the question?

You seem to be suggesting: “We cannot sin because we are born of God.”, so do you feel Christians cannot quench the indwelling Holy Spirit and get involved in sinning?

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It's not a suggestion, it's a Spiritual fact, we are dead to the Law, dead to the flesh, dead to sin.

This means there isn't any room for sinning, in other words, there is no place for sin.

Sin was condemned (Destroyed) in the flesh by Jesus.

Rom 8:3
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:


Gal. 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

1 John 3:all

Do you not know what it means to be Born of God?


Now you have suggested, by their quenching of the Holy Spirit, Christians get involved in sin.

Are there any verses in Scripture, which express this belief of yours, which one of the Apostles taught, Christians had the ability to sin, by their quenching of the Holy Spirit?

Be Blessed

jimmyjimmy said:

God had laid out the law to His people. He gave them prophets, priests, and kings. He gave them a sacrificial system to cover their sins. . . . The entire system was in place, if only one chose to obey it.

If men have the ability to choose God, and choose to follow His ways, why Christ? The old covenant fit the bill in every way that most people speak of the new one, right? Many say, "Follow the rules, and you are good with God. Don't and you are cut off".

If "Choose this day whom you will serve. . ." is all that's needed, again, why Christ? Why did mankind need something more that what God had already provided?

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The law brought physical death. Jesus brought grace.
1: Breaking many of the laws set forth in the ten commandments often resulted in death by stoning e.t.c.
2: Jesus and His grace.:The woman taken in adultery was about to be stoned *thus saith the law* but Jesus pardoned her.Had He not have been there on that day she *would have* been stoned .
Homosexuals, adulterers e.t.c were *killed* outright *thus saith the law*.
However Jesus didn't come to condemn but to save,set free,heal e.t.c.
He came to offer *law breakers* a second chance.
That's why we needed more. We are *all* condemned under the law.
We have a second chance,a chance to repent and get right with the Lord through His son the *Mediator* and High Priest.Jesus Christ the Messiah.

JIMINZ said:

It's not a suggestion, it's a Spiritual fact, we are dead to the Law, dead to the flesh, dead to sin.

This means there isn't any room for sinning, in other words, there is no place for sin.

Sin was condemned (Destroyed) in the flesh by Jesus.

Rom 8:3
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:


Gal. 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

1 John 3:all

Do you not know what it means to be Born of God?


Now you have suggested, by their quenching of the Holy Spirit, Christians get involved in sin.

Are there any verses in Scripture, which express this belief of yours, which one of the Apostles taught, Christians had the ability to sin, by their quenching of the Holy Spirit?

Be Blessed

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Please help me here: Are you saying once you become a Christian it is not possible for you to “sin” (do stuff displeasing to God)?

Why did Paul warn Christians about sinning if it was not possible for them to sin?

When Paul confronted Peter did Peter sin: Gal. 2: 11 But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. 12 For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision. 13 And the rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy. 14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, “If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?”

Paul warns us against quenching the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19-22), so does that mean it is impossible to quench the Spirit or quenching the Spirit is not a sin to do?

Are Christians not sinning when they do bad stuff?

jimmyjimmy said:

God had laid out the law to His people. He gave them prophets, priests, and kings. He gave them a sacrificial system to cover their sins. . . . The entire system was in place, if only one chose to obey it.

If men have the ability to choose God, and choose to follow His ways, why Christ? The old covenant fit the bill in every way that most people speak of the new one, right? Many say, "Follow the rules, and you are good with God. Don't and you are cut off".

If "Choose this day whom you will serve. . ." is all that's needed, again, why Christ? Why did mankind need something more that what God had already provided?

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The very best answer comes from a book all Christians should read.
On the Incarnation of the Word
by St. Athanasius
On the Incarnation of the Word - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

bling said:

Please help me here: Are you saying once you become a Christian it is not possible for you to “sin” (do stuff displeasing to God)?

Why did Paul warn Christians about sinning if it was not possible for them to sin?

When Paul confronted Peter did Peter sin: Gal. 2: 11 But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. 12 For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision. 13 And the rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy. 14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, “If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?”

Paul warns us against quenching the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19-22), so does that mean it is impossible to quench the Spirit or quenching the Spirit is not a sin to do?

Are Christians not sinning when they do bad stuff?

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You said, by their quenching of the Holy Spirit, Christians get involved in sin.

Are there any verses in Scripture, which express this belief of yours, which one of the Apostles taught, that Christians had the ability to sin, by their quenching of the Holy Spirit?

It takes more than just the one verse which says.

1Th 5:19
Quench not the Spirit.

Without anything to back it up, that particular verse could come to mean just about anything you wanted it to mean, as you are attempting to do right now.

Can you prove that verse says what you are saying it says?


The word quench as it is used in that verse means.

G4570
σβέννυμι
sbennumi
sben'-noo-mee
A prolonged form of an apparently primary verb; to extinguish (literally or figuratively): - go out, quench.


Be Blessed

Mary, for one, is prophesied as far back as the stories in Genesis.
Most Christians look only so far back as Isaiah in the 8th Century BC, but Christ is laced throughout the entirety of the Old Testament.

The Book of Job is the oldest book in the Bible, and Jesus is everywhere within it. The Apostles drew from Job just as they did Isaiah.

jimmyjimmy said:

You've missed the point of this thread, as well.

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It's like meeting in a crowded room and trying to have a conversation. You've just come from another conversation... and so have I... you're trying to say something and I'm not getting it. Such is life.

Forgive me...