The Injustice of Arminianism

jimmyjimmy said:

What choice? Did Adam choose to sin? Did you choose to sin?

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Adam chose to sin. I have chosen to sin. I have a free will, and I can make decisions about my path in life.

THE W said:

you came up with the analogy, not me.

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And it's just an analogy. Just because a comparison can be drawn doesn't make them identical in every way.

just as allowing your dog to roam free in the yard keeps you from going to your job, God giving his creatures autonomous free will keeps him from truly being omni-bonevelent(would be interested in scriptural evidence for this attribute).

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I don't see how that stops omnibenevolence at all. You're the one who is apparently claiming God has that attribute, I didn't. Find your own Scriptural evidence.

this would also take away from God's omniscience as well as his omnipotence as God cannot know what autonomous free will creatures are going to do and is powerless to stop them from doing evil.

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False. Omniscience doesn't preclude free will.
Foreknowledge and Free Will | Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy

Further, if God doesn't stop them from happening, it's because He CHOOSES to not stop them, not because He is "powerless" to stop them.

this 'apparent' contradiction comes from the assumption that those holding to the doctrines of grace believe that man doesn't have the ability to make choices. man in his fallen state absolutely can make choices. however, the one choice he is not able to make is the one to come to Christ in true repentance and faith. this is something that must be done by God to the creature(Ezekiel 11:19-20 john 6:43-44).

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If the only choice man has is to sin, then there is no choice. "Choice", by definition, means there has to be more than one option.

God preordained all actions and events in time(Isaiah 46:9-10) but man makes choices based on his own will and desires(james 1:13-15). if you believe God to have contradicted himself, that's up to you.

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Straw man fallacy. I never said God contradicted Himself. I said YOU did.

-V- said:

I don't see how that stops omnibenevolence at all. You're the one who is apparently claiming God has that attribute, I didn't. Find your own Scriptural evidence.

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I actually reject the notion of God's "Omni-benevolence". i'm just going along with the argument presented.

the necessity of autonomous free will creatures apparently keeps God from coming up with a world where all will be saved in that he has no control over what these creatures will do.

BTW, who gave God the options of worlds to choose from?

-V- said:

False. Omniscience doesn't preclude free will.

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how does God obtain knowledge?

-V- said:

Further, if God doesn't stop them from happening, it's because He CHOOSES to not stop them, not because He is "powerless" to stop them.

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how and when did God obtain knowledge of these events?

-V- said:

If the only choice man has is to sin, then there is no choice. "Choice", by definition, means there has to be more than one option.

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point being that when man commits sin, he does exactly what he wants to do. he is not forced nor coerced to do it by God, which is what james 1:13-15 says.

-V- said:

Straw man fallacy. I never said God contradicted Himself. I said YOU did.

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I made two statements and gave the scriptural proofs for them. if you believe the two statements I made which are substantiated in God's Word are contradictory. your grievance is with God and not me.

Light of the East said:

What exactly does this have to do with my post, in which I was showing that one does not have to "know Christ" or hear the Gospel in order to be saved. St. Paul made that clear in Romans 2.

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Paul made no such claim in Romans 2. Romans 2 is about accountability.

EmSw said:

Jesus told us who obtains mercy.

Matthew 5:7
Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy.

He doesn't just give mercy willy nilly because He chooses to do so. He gives mercy to the merciful. Of course, I expect some not to believe this...we'll see.



Salvation depends upon one's intent of his heart, and his life according to this intent.

Since God does not change, we can find this in several verses in Ezekiel.

Ezekiel 18:23

Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord God, “rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?


Ezekiel 33:11
Say to them, ‘As I live!’ declares the Lord God, ‘I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?’

This applies to every man, woman, and child. How will a man live except he turn from his wickedness? This is for those who've heard the Gospel and for those who haven't. And this is for the elect also!

I'm sure many will say this is not required to be saved, that is, live, but they would be rejecting God and His word. These two passages become foolishness to them.

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God is merciful to the unsaved who give mercy as well as the saved who do so. Rain falls also on the crops of the wicked.
But the mercy of saving grace is undeserved by everyone, except Jesus.

You said...
"This applies to every man, woman, and child. How will a man live except he turn from his wickedness? This is for those who've heard the Gospel and for those who haven't. And this is for the elect also!"
To which I reply, and how shall a man turn from his wickedness unless he be gifted with the undeserved mercy of irresistible grace which results in saving faith?
1Cor 2:14 verifies this, as I read it. The message of the gospel is foolishness to those who are still perishing, but it is the power of God to those who believe.

THE W said:

I actually reject the notion of God's "Omni-benevolence". i'm just going along with the argument presented.

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I never presented that God was "omnibenevolent". I will say He loves all people.

the necessity of autonomous free will creatures apparently keeps God from coming up with a world where all will be saved in that he has no control over what these creatures will do.

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Why do you have to jump from one extreme to the other? God allowing people to make free will choices does not mean God "has no control". And yes, apparently God's choice to allow man some free will means there can not be a world where everyone is saved.

BTW, who gave God the options of worlds to choose from?

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I don't believe I ever suggested the choice of how to create was anyone's choice other than God's.

how does God obtain knowledge?

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Being omniscient, God doesn't obtain knowledge. You can't obtain what you already have.

how and when did God obtain knowledge of these events?

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How? By being omniscient. When? From eternity.

point being that when man commits sin, he does exactly what he wants to do. he is not forced nor coerced to do it by God, which is what james 1:13-15 says.

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I have never disputed that. But some will argue that man can only make sinful decisions, the only choice man can make is to sin. If that's true, then man can't have free will. In order to have a choice, sin can't be the only option.

I made two statements and gave the scriptural proofs for them. if you believe the two statements I made which are substantiated in God's Word are contradictory. your grievance is with God and not me.

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Again, false. It's not an issue of God's Word contradicting itself. It's an issue of your interpretation of Scripture apparently contradicting itself.

jimmyjimmy said:

Adam rebeled. (Genesis 3)

All men have followed him. (Romans 3)

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And this means that they fell of their own free will-by directly opposing God's will. Otherwise there'd be nothing blameworthy in their actions, no culpability. God's will isn't necessarily done, which is the very reason we're told to ask that it be done in the Lord's prayer.

jimmyjimmy said:

Many accuse God of being, "unfair" in His election of some, but not all, people; however, they don't seem to understand that the alternative view in which God simply provides a way for men to be saved, but leaves them to their own devices, i.e., "free will", makes God out to be truly unjust because not all people have had equal opportunity in which to make their "choice".

The Biblical doctrine of election teaches that God shows mercy to some, and justice to the rest. He would be completely just in condemning all mankind, would He not?

The alternate, and errant, view is that God gives everyone a choice, assuming that every person who has every lived has had access to good preachers, godly teachers, Bibles in their language, Christlike neighbors. . . The reality is that many many millions have lived and died without ever hearing the gospel. How "fair" is that? (according to the Arminian view)

Do you hold to a view of salvation which makes God out to be unjust? How do you defend your position?

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I can only address Calvinism in comparison to the orthodox Christian view, not the opposing view within the Reformist movement.

God created human beings who live and interact with each other on a single planet with the power of free will. We are not like the angels in living as separate unrelated individuals, each essentially a species of their own. We are not like the animals who without reason, lack the ability to sin.

We live in a changing world, with others with the power of free will and even if Adam and Eve did not sin during their lives, at some point, some human being would choose to reject God and that rejection would have consequences for the rest of us. In the east, sin is not something you 'inherit' like a genetic disease. Individuals are born into a world tainted by sin and we are affected by that. In the west, sin is understood as being 'inherited' as if they decisions of Adam and Eve were passed on down by the flesh. In the Reformist view, this is take to a stricter sense, in believing that human beings are born totally depraved and oriented to sin, rather than being born affected by it, or inheriting some defect.

Either way, by the very nature of humanity, we were destined to have sin enter the world and to affect us all. That's not a defect of God. God created in a spectrum, of the smallest things, to the greatest angels. God created many kinds of animals, but gave one the immortal soul and the power of reason. One species had a place in both Heaven and the Earth.

Calvinism teaches that God creates people, who were created without a choice and then arbitrarily decides to save some of them. Meaning, God creates people who have no choice but to suffer for all eternity for something they were born as. God creates some people to go to Heaven and some people to go to Hell and this has everything to do with His choice. I don't know how this doesn't make God cruel, but passes off as just by being arbitrary.

In the orthodox Christian view, humans are not totally depraved. Every person is not orientated towards evil, but in fact the good. It is our limited understanding and the effects of sin that diminish our capacity to understand what is truly good. Thomas Aquinas noted that every action of every person and any point is motivated by the good, even the most depraved and selfish acts, because they believe it will bring about some good, even if only to themselves.

Human beings affected by sin, but still inclined to good, have at every moment the grace of God which supernaturally calls us to reject sin and enter into a deeper relationship, or reject God and further their separation. Thus, God judges us, balancing with mercy for what we did not receive, and justice for what we did.

jimmyjimmy said:

Christ IS God. Know not Him, and know not God. One cannot place faith in One they have never heard of or else the Church would not evangelize.

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That's obviously wrong unless you believe the people before Christ are in hell too. But I am sure you'll find some mental gymnastics to excuse that one.

jimmyjimmy said:

Does it say, "want"?

If you aren't a Universalist, then you should understand that the verse doesn't mean that God saves all people.

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The verse means that God wills the salvation of all people, as Christ was given for all people.

For orthodox Christians, you can draw a circle representing all the people God intended to save and all the people Christ was sent for. Part of that circle would have the saved and the rest the damned and there are no people outside of that circle. For Calvinists, God has one circle, those He willed to save and sent Christ for, which contains all the saved, and another circle, those God did not will to save and God did not send Christ for, which contains all the damned.

So God creates all people and divides them into two groups arbitrarily. God makes one group He will to save and have to go Heaven, and another group He wills not to save and goes to hell and someone calls this just?

THE W said:

it would seem that this omni-benevolent god does not have the power to create a world where his desire to save everyone can be fulfilled. it also seems like this omnipotent god is subject to the will of his creation.

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It seems the desire to save everyone has been lifted out of the context of salvation being only for the Jews.

THE W said:

if it's stops you from being able to go to work...

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Haven't figured out to toss a milkbone into the far corner of the yard on your way out?

Wordkeeper said:

Give it a rest. It's been repeated innumerable times that the arbitrary judgment is on Israel, not on individuals.

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I agree and really get so disgusted with the way Calvinists twist and take Romans 9 out of context disregarding passages in the Bible which clearly show Paul is not addressing about individual salvation at all.

sdowney717 said:

Not true at all. Talk about trying to nullify the word of God.

What does it says about the gentiles here in v24?

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

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Doh! Gentiles are a group. Jews are a group.

God decided arbitrarily to bind the Jews over to disobedience, hardening ALL Jews, so that they cannot accept Christianity. This is temporary, the hardening will be lifted. But this is how it pleases God to show mercy to what group He wishes.

jimmyjimmy said:

God is in charge (sovereign) and working in history, yet man is responsible for his actions. No one forced Joesph's brothers to do what they did, and God didn't wait around to see what they would do, and then work His plan in where He could.

Genesis 50:20: "As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good. . ." (ESV)

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Hee!Hee!If God meant it, it means God planned and executed it, including forcing Joseph's brothers!

Rick Otto said:

God is merciful to the unsaved who give mercy as well as the saved who do so. Rain falls also on the crops of the wicked.
But the mercy of saving grace is undeserved by everyone, except Jesus.

You said...
"This applies to every man, woman, and child. How will a man live except he turn from his wickedness? This is for those who've heard the Gospel and for those who haven't. And this is for the elect also!"
To which I reply, and how shall a man turn from his wickedness unless he be gifted with the undeserved mercy of irresistible grace which results in saving faith?
1Cor 2:14 verifies this, as I read it. The message of the gospel is foolishness to those who are still perishing, but it is the power of God to those who believe.

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What do you think these passages are saying?

Ezekiel 18:27

Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life.


Ezekiel 33:14

But when I say to the wicked, ‘You will surely die,’ and he turns from his sin and practices justice and righteousness,


Ezekiel 33:16

None of his sins that he has committed will be remembered against him. He has practiced justice and righteousness; he shall surely live.


Ezekiel 33:19
But when the wicked turns from his wickedness and practices justice and righteousness, he will live by them.

-V- said:

I don't believe I ever suggested the choice of how to create was anyone's choice other than God's.

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doesn't answer my question. who gave God the options of worlds he had to choose from to create?

-V- said:

Being omniscient, God doesn't obtain knowledge. You can't obtain what you already have.

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If God always had knowledge of events that happened, and did nothing to stop them from happening, when he knew these things would occur and had no decretive desire for them to occur, how does this not make him powerless?

again, I simply accurately interpreted what God's Word said. unless you want to argue these interpretations to be inaccurate(you have to prove it), my point stands.

THE W said:

doesn't answer my question. who gave God the options of worlds he had to choose from to create?



If God always had knowledge of events that happened, and did nothing to stop them from happening, when he knew these things would occur and had no decretive desire for them to occur, how does this not make him powerless?

again, I simply accurately interpreted what God's Word said. unless you want to argue these interpretations to be inaccurate(you have to prove it), my point stands.

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Ahem. Relinquishing an attribute isn't unheard of amongst the Godhood:

Phillipians 2:5-11
5Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.8Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Wordkeeper said:

Ahem. Relinquishing an attribute isn't unheard of amongst the Godhood:

Phillipians 2:5-11
5Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.8Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

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unless you reject the hypostatic union in that Jesus was fully God and fully man I don't see your point.