Regarding adultery

gadar perets

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If Christ spoke as you describe then why is it that something so simple as defining adultery isn't possible? There doesn't seem to be any consensus among Christ followers here.
Adultery can be defined using a few verses together.

Leviticus 20:10 And the man that commits adultery with another man's wife, even he that commits adultery with his neighbor's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.​

Here we learn that adultery is an act committed by a man with someone's wife. The reverse would also be true of a woman with someone's husband (Ezekiel 16:32).

Matthew 5:27 You have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looks on a woman to lust after her has committed adultery with her already in his heart.​

Here we learn that sexual lusting with the eyes commits adultery in the heart. By extension, when sexual lust is fulfilled through the act of sex with someone's spouse it is committing adultery with the body. Combine the verses and we learn that adultery is sexual relations with someone's spouse. It can be committed in the heart through lust of the eyes or literally in the body.
 
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janxharris

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then our ancestors wouldn't have begged Moses for a writ to try and separate something that is indivisible (under God.)

Could you explain exactly what you mean by this? Are you merely referring to Moses's words in Deuteronomy 24 or are you suggesting that Moses was judge and jury regarding divorce?

As I said, even thought Christ tried to be as simple and remedial as possible, our own ignorance prevents us from clearly grasping spiritual concepts that should be very simple.

You don't think the HS could have inspired just one of the 40 authors to explicitly define adultery and proscribe polygamy?

But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

2 Corinthians 11:3.​

A snake spoke to a woman and beguiled her? You think this encourages belief rather than scepticism?

Tell me - how would you describe Song of Songs? What, to you, are we to learn from it?
 
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janxharris

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Adultery can be defined using a few verses together.

Leviticus 20:10 And the man that commits adultery with another man's wife, even he that commits adultery with his neighbor's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.​

Here we learn that adultery is an act committed by a man with someone's wife. The reverse would also be true of a woman with someone's husband (Ezekiel 16:32).

Matthew 5:27 You have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looks on a woman to lust after her has committed adultery with her already in his heart.​

Here we learn that sexual lusting with the eyes commits adultery in the heart. By extension, when sexual lust is fulfilled through the act of sex with someone's spouse it is committing adultery with the body. Combine the verses and we learn that adultery is sexual relations with someone's spouse. It can be committed in the heart through lust of the eyes or literally in the body.

In Lev 20:10 the man's marital status isn't know but in Ezekiel 16:32 she is married - so they aren't quite comparable - especially when one considers the fact that an unmarried woman (according to you) would be permitted to marry an already married man.
 
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gadar perets

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In Lev 20:10 the man's marital status isn't know but in Ezekiel 16:32 she is married - so they aren't quite comparable - especially when one considers the fact that an unmarried woman (according to you) would be permitted to marry an already married man.
The man's marital status is irrelevant. Whether he was married or not, if he took another man's wife he was guilty of adultery. The same holds true for women.

"According to" me? Are you denying that the Almighty permitted it?
 
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janxharris

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The man's marital status is irrelevant. Whether he was married or not, if he took another man's wife he was guilty of adultery. The same holds true for women.

But, somehow, it's permitted if the woman marries the man? It also appears that 'marriage' is also difficult to define.

"According to" me? Are you denying that the Almighty permitted it?

It was allowed to occur. I remain unclear as to exactly why.
 
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gadar perets

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But, somehow, it's permitted if the woman marries the man? It also appears that 'marriage' is also difficult to define.
If she marries the man BEFORE having sex. If sex comes first, it is adultery. Marriage is when the Almighty joins a man and woman together in a covenant relationship. Sex is not necessary to consummate a marriage.

It was allowed to occur. I remain unclear as to exactly why.
You will need to ask Him if you get the opportunity. One thing is clear, you don't need to know that information in order to have faith in your Creator. It is not His will that we become omniscient before putting our faith and trust in Him.
 
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janxharris

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You will need to ask Him if you get the opportunity. One thing is clear, you don't need to know that information in order to have faith in your Creator. It is not His will that we become omniscient before putting our faith and trust in Him.

I'd say the lack of clarity on this issue is a good reason to doubt scripture.
 
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gadar perets

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I'd say the lack of clarity on this issue is a good reason to doubt scripture.
I'd say you are doing your best to find any reason to doubt Scripture. No problem. Your Creator gave you a free will to decide whether or not you want to be reconciled to Him. Should you choose not to, your loss will be more than you can bear on the day you find out what you turned down. I will lift you up in prayer.
 
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Ygrene Imref

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Could you explain exactly what you mean by this? Are you merely referring to Moses's words in Deuteronomy 24 or are you suggesting that Moses was judge and jury regarding divorce?

You asked why something so simple as defining adultery seems to be an impossible task. I answered with a question, pointing to the division in the philosophy of spirituality/religion that means unity - Christianity. There has never been a consensus between anyone of any religion - and we have evidence of this in Judaism/Christianity. There were certain remnant that "got it," or were tasked to be teachers, visionaries, prophets, and martyrs that also had the providence of God. This number was historically small, unassuming and ridiculous in quality and quantity - especially compared to the world.

This is part of what I meant when I said earlier that marriage has been institutionalized, and has become a morphology of something other than what it originally was.

I would go even further in that and say there is no premarital sex, as when you decide to unionize yourself to someone else with the act of sex, you are participating in the consummation of marriage under God.

Clearly, this has wide spread implications that conflict with any type of structure - because it is the raw definition of the act without anything attached. It just so happens to culturally conflict with most all Christian denominations.


You don't think the HS could have inspired just one of the 40 authors to explicitly define adultery and proscribe polygamy?

Absolutely. And, He has.

Remember, He sent His entire Logos to earth to tell us all the secrets of the universe freely. It is said there isn't a way to contain all of His teaching in "books."

But, "we" killed Him. Similarly, "we" either severely persecuted, or killed the prophets before Him that God sent. So, maybe we don't actually want the truth: and, like the Gentleman that God is, He is letting us see the confusion that arises when we go back to ancient systems that caused enmity between Him and us in antiquity.

He kept sending people. We kept killing them, or ignoring them. Then He sent His Son thinking we wouldn't dare kill this Representatative of Him. Not only did we kill Him, we still remain ignorant of His simplicity.

The good news is that this isn't atypical: His own disciples didn't recognize Him even if He actually rode a donkey into Jerusalem. They were in His presence for months. So, we have a significant amount of "grace" to get it together. But, part of that comes down to getting to the root of everything.


A snake spoke to a woman and beguiled her? You think this encourages belief rather than scepticism?

In the apocryphal books, it was the Watcher angel Azazel who used his avatar - a serpent - to deceive Eve, and then Adam. If you are of the group who takes books of the apocrypha as something to be of profit, then the "talking snake" is well understood. In fact, Genesis 1-7 especially is considered commonplace, and issues like God telling Israel to commit apparent genocide become fully justified - considering what, for example, the Philistines were.

We have marginalized the magnanimity of antiquity - its wonders and terrors - in exchange for the basal philosophy of scientific enlightenment. The amount of contradicting paradigms we entertain is staggering. So, we wouldn't even be able to grasp the allegory of the fantastic things in the bible, because we believe the fantastic things are fantastic only.

Tell me - how would you describe Song of Songs? What, to you, are we to learn from it?

This is the relationship between you and the HS. When you come to an understanding, you converse with others and discuss things. When you all gather together, even if you disagree, if you are in Christ He will oversee the conversation so that it is mutually profitable.
 
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RDKirk

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Genesis 2:25 says she was his wife. Genesis 4:1 then says, "And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from YHWH." Was Cain conceived before the fall?

Scripture doesn't tell us one way or the other. But don't presume that Cain was instantly conceived the first time (or second or third) that they had sexual intercourse.

Or are you presuming they were only betrothed and had not had sexual intercourse before the fall?
 
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RDKirk

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The point is that sex did NOT make them married. This verse alone destroys your doctrine that sex makes a marriage.

Sex did make them married. That's why completing the social aspects was a command imperative rather that merely optional. Neither the seducer, nor the father of the girl, nor the girl had any say in the matter.
 
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gadar perets

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Scripture doesn't tell us one way or the other. But don't presume that Cain was instantly conceived the first time (or second or third) that they had sexual intercourse.
I agree.

Or are you presuming they were only betrothed and had not had sexual intercourse before the fall?
No, they were married.

What about the example of Joseph and Miriam (Mary) in Matthew 1:24-25?
 
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gadar perets

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Sex did make them married. That's why completing the social aspects was a command imperative rather that merely optional. Neither the seducer, nor the father of the girl, nor the girl had any say in the matter.
If the father refused to give his daughter to him (Exodus 22:17), there was no marriage.
 
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janxharris

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I'd say you are doing your best to find any reason to doubt Scripture. No problem. Your Creator gave you a free will to decide whether or not you want to be reconciled to Him. Should you choose not to, your loss will be more than you can bear on the day you find out what you turned down. I will lift you up in prayer.

I appreciate your concern but I can't imagine much hinges on what I believe or put my faith in...I'm merely guessing anyway.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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To anyone interested - it is not my intention to disprove scripture (even though this might seem to be the case upon reading my posts); rather, I wish to examine and test to see if what is written is true.
Have you or anyone ever found anything of God's Word not true !?

Doubting His Word, any part of His Word, is lack of faith, too.
 
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janxharris

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In the apocryphal books, it was the Watcher angel Azazel who used his avatar - a serpent - to deceive Eve, and then Adam. If you are of the group who takes books of the apocrypha as something to be of profit, then the "talking snake" is well understood. In fact, Genesis 1-7 especially is considered commonplace, and issues like God telling Israel to commit apparent genocide become fully justified - considering what, for example, the Philistines were.

We have marginalized the magnanimity of antiquity - its wonders and terrors - in exchange for the basal philosophy of scientific enlightenment. The amount of contradicting paradigms we entertain is staggering. So, we wouldn't even be able to grasp the allegory of the fantastic things in the bible, because we believe the fantastic things are fantastic only.

I have no idea what you are trying to say here.
 
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janxharris

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This is the relationship between you and the HS. When you come to an understanding, you converse with others and discuss things. When you all gather together, even if you disagree, if you are in Christ He will oversee the conversation so that it is mutually profitable.

???
 
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janxharris

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Have you or anyone ever found anything of God's Word not true !?

Doubting His Word, any part of His Word, is lack of faith, too.

Matthew 24:34 is a strong candidate...but beyond the scope of this thread.
 
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janxharris

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Becoming one flesh refers to sexual relations, not marriage. A couple is already married before they have relations as seen in Matthew 1:24-25. God does not join us in marriage to harlots through sex.

It seems, in fact, that they were considered husband and wife at betrothal:

Mat. 1:18-19
This is how the birth of Jesus the Messiah came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be pregnant through the Holy Spirit. Because Joseph her husband was faithful to the law, and yet did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly.
 
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