The Injustice of Arminianism

sdowney717 · Jul 23, 2017

The weeds-tares are sons of Satan planted by the devil in God's field, they are the reprobate and will NEVER be saved.
The wheat is sown by Christ in God's field and are His people who are saved.
The two types grow together till the harvest.
God endures with much longsuffering the sons of Satan, sons of disobedience for the sake of the wheat, sons of God, that none be hurt, none be damaged. God's destroying of all the wicked reprobate upon their emergence would somehow hurt the wheat crop, so He bears long with them both the tares and the wheat.

But their destruction is certain. The angels, the workers, in the field also immediately recognize one from the other. But the wheat does not know the difference until the harvest, and I suppose neither do the tares. Tares will never produce fruit, so if the wheat is observant they would see that. Bur young tares and young wheat are similar looking.

Matthew 13:24
[ The Parable of the Wheat and the Tares ] Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field;
Matthew 13:25
but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way.
Matthew 13:26
But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared.
Matthew 13:27
So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’
Matthew 13:29
But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them.
Matthew 13:30
Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”

jimmyjimmy · Jul 23, 2017

Adam rebeled. (Genesis 3)

All men have followed him. (Romans 3)

Therefore, all men are by nature objects wrath of God. (Ephesians 2:3)

Therefore, they are ALL deserving of God's just condemnation. (Romans 1)

However, if He wishes to show mercy to some of those who are guilty, He is not unjust in doing so, as mercy is not obligatory. Further, no creature may question His judgements in this. (Romans 9)

It's that simple.

Wordkeeper · Jul 23, 2017

jimmyjimmy said:
However, if He wishes to show mercy to some of those who are guilty, He is not unjust in doing so, as mercy is not obligatory. Further, no creature may question His judgements in this. (Romans 9)

Why would God go against His own teaching of the positive nature of loving one's enemies?

Matthew 5:43-45
43“You have heard that it was said, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.’ 44“But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on therighteous and the unrighteous.

He doesn't.

Romans 5:8
God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Besides, Romans 9 deals with corporate election, two nations in Rachel's womb, where which it pleased God, God using His prerogative, to arbitrarily, without reason, before they did good or bad, choose one to be a vessel of honour, only in the case of fleshly Israel, and not the Israel of God, to be bound to disobedience.

-V- · Jul 23, 2017

jimmyjimmy said:
Adam rebeled. (Genesis 3)

All men have followed him. (Romans 3)

Therefore, all men are by nature objects wrath of God. (Ephesians 2:3)

Therefore, they are ALL deserving of God's just condemnation. (Romans 1)

However, if He wishes to show mercy to some of those who are guilty, He is not unjust in doing so, as mercy is not obligatory. Further, no creature may question His judgements in this. (Romans 9)

Unless, of course, man never had any choice in the matter. Our sinful nature was forced upon us, we didn't choose it. Our sin, then, was thrust upon us with no choice. Those that are damned, then, are damned despite having no choice in the matter, and God simply decided, "so what, let them burn," and then also blames us for it, making God an unjust monster.

Those that are saved, it is because God COMPELLED them to become elect, again having no choice, having their regeneration FORCED upon them. They become the unwilling bride of Christ, essentially making God a spiritual rapist.

sdowney717 · Jul 23, 2017

-V- said:
Unless, of course, man never had any choice in the matter. Our sinful nature was forced upon us, we didn't choose it. Our sin, then, was thrust upon us with no choice. Those that are damned, then, are damned despite having no choice in the matter, and God simply decided, "so what, let them burn," and then also blames us for it, making God an unjust monster.

Those that are saved, it is because God COMPELLED them to become elect, again having no choice, having their regeneration FORCED upon them. They become the unwilling bride of Christ, essentially making God a spiritual rapist.

Some evil sounding words there , your maligning what God does?
It is God's choice to show mercy on some and harden others, your objecting is like Paul's response in Romans 9:18-21.

18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Wordkeeper · Jul 23, 2017

sdowney717 said:
Some evil sounding words there , your maligning what God does?
It is God's choice to show mercy on some and harden others, your objecting is like Paul's response in Romans 9:18-21.

18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Give it a rest. It's been repeated innumerable times that the arbitrary judgment is on Israel, not on individuals.

-V- · Jul 23, 2017

sdowney717 said:
Some evil sounding words there , your maligning what God does?

No, I'm maligning what some people's doctrines force God to be.

It is God's choice to show mercy on some and harden others, your objecting is like Paul's response in Romans 9:18-21.

18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

And if you look at the verse just before what you quote, you see Pharaoh as the example. Exodus points out several times that Pharaoh hardened his own heart.
See this article: Who Hardened Pharaoh's Heart?
God "hardening" people's hearts is God allowing them to harden their own hearts, He doesn't make the choice for them. God may certainly hold them to that choice, but not without them still making that choice first.

redleghunter · Jul 23, 2017

Light of the East said:
Well, that's fun, but not what the Scriptures teach. Romans 2:13-16. Go look it up.

I believe Romans 3 makes it clear both categories mentioned in what you quote above cannot claim to be righteous. Paul makes it clear "none are righteous." None.

After saying this he continues with :

Romans 3: NKJV

21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

However, don't accept my excerpt from Romans above as I pointed out your own excerpt was later explained. Romans is a theological "dissertation" where Paul, like a lawyer is presenting a case to a jury. Romans must be read in its entirety.

Light of the East · Jul 23, 2017

jimmyjimmy said:
Do you believe salvation comes through obedience to the law?

No. Salvation has come to all mankind by the obedience of Christ to the Law. His perfect life and obedience unto the Father unto death has changed mankind's nature. All are now justified before God by the work of Christ. (Romans 5: 18-19)

Light of the East · Jul 23, 2017

redleghunter said:
I believe Romans 3 makes it clear both categories mentioned in what you quote above cannot claim to be righteous. Paul makes it clear "none are righteous." None.

After saying this he continues with :

Romans 3: NKJV

21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

However, don't accept my excerpt from Romans above as I pointed out your own excerpt was later explained. Romans is a theological "dissertation" where Paul, like a lawyer is presenting a case to a jury. Romans must be read in its entirety.

What exactly does this have to do with my post, in which I was showing that one does not have to "know Christ" or hear the Gospel in order to be saved. St. Paul made that clear in Romans 2.

Light of the East · Jul 23, 2017

jimmyjimmy said:
If I had a dollar for daytime someone ripped this verse out of context and perverted its meaning, I would be a rich man.

There is no context to this or to 1 Tim 2: 4, which states that it is the will of God that all men come to salvation.

What kind of monster God do you worship who would create sentient beings, capable of suffering, and knowing that they would fall, would not redeem them all? Is that a God of love in your eyes????

Strong in Him · Jul 23, 2017

jimmyjimmy said:
There aren't. They are judged for their sin.

Sin is rebellion against God. So if they don't know God, never mind his laws and standards ..........?

pshun2404 · Jul 23, 2017

True injustice is calling God the author of all evil and the cause of all sin that sinners sin.

jimmyjimmy · Jul 23, 2017

pshun2404 said:
True injustice is calling God the author of all evil and the cause of all sin that sinners sin.

Yes. That would be awful.

Light of the East · Jul 23, 2017

jimmyjimmy said:
In that case, it would be a waste of my time explaining it, right? I don't like wasting time. I can't make any more of it.

In other words, you don't have any proof.

aiki · Jul 23, 2017

"Apart from Calvinism or Arminianism, there surely is a separate option."

See Molinism.

AKAP · Jul 23, 2017

jimmyjimmy said:
Many accuse God of being, "unfair" in His election of some, but not all, people; however, they don't seem to understand that the alternative view in which God simply provides a way for men to be saved, but leaves them to their own devices, i.e., "free will", makes God out to be truly unjust because not all people have had equal opportunity in which to make their "choice".

The Biblical doctrine of election teaches that God shows mercy to some, and justice to the rest. He would be completely just in condemning all mankind, would He not?

The alternate, and errant, view is that God gives everyone a choice, assuming that every person who has every lived has had access to good preachers, godly teachers, Bibles in their language, Christlike neighbors. . . The reality is that many many millions have lived and died without ever hearing the gospel. How "fair" is that? (according to the Arminian view)

Do you hold to a view of salvation which makes God out to be unjust? How do you defend your position?

God is never unjust and frankly I'm not even worthy to entertain his thoughts and' judge' his ways. He created me and has a purpose for me as all mankind. If we really believe God created us and that God provided us with the Lord Jesus Christ to restore us from the curse of sin then we know he knew us before hand and knew we would use our free will to choose him over self and pride.

I believe that we have a limited free-will. We are free to either continue in our natural spiritual state of rebellion with self and pride at its core and even get deeper into ourselves, or to choose God when he calls us; and everyone get at least one call from those that can communicate with God via his spirit/heart.

God knows when the heart has continued in pride to the point that he will stop calling him/her. This is the mercy and justice he gives to everyone. He is completely fair.
Unfortunately MOST people will not heed God's call(s) and will die in the same state they were born in.

Now once a person hears and applies the calling of God into their hearts, that person then reaches out to God and God will compel him to himself in conjunction with hearing the gospel. They shall receive salvation.

There are many people that prematurely hear the gospel first without hearing the call of God before or shortly afterwards, and they mentally believe in it and become false believers. They never received salvation that comes from the heart. They kept their pride and selfish ways, even though they outwardly walk and appear to acknowledge God's ways.

And I also believe that the older one gets the harder it is to genuinely become a believer destined for life. The pride tends to get thicker and the heart becomes more hardened from hearing the call of God and the gospel.

In Christ, always

Light of the East · Jul 23, 2017

AKAP said:
God is never unjust and frankly I'm not even worthy to entertain his thoughts and' judge' his ways. He created me and has a purpose for me as all mankind. If we really believe God created us and that God provided us with the Lord Jesus Christ to restore us from the curse of sin then we know he knew us before hand and knew we would use our free will to choose him over self and pride.

I believe that we have a limited free-will. We are free to either continue in our natural spiritual state of rebellion with self and pride at its core and even get deeper into ourselves, or to choose God when he calls us; and everyone get at least one call from those that can communicate with God via his spirit/heart.

God knows when the heart has continued in pride to the point that he will stop calling him/her. This is the mercy and justice he gives to everyone. He is completely fair.
Unfortunately MOST people will not heed God's call(s) and will die in the same state they were born in.

Now once a person hears and applies the calling of God into their hearts, that person then reaches out to God and God will compel him to himself in conjunction with hearing the gospel. They shall receive salvation.

There are many people that prematurely hear the gospel first without hearing the call of God before or shortly afterwards, and they mentally believe in it and become false believers. They never received salvation that comes from the heart. They kept their pride and selfish ways, even though they outwardly walk and appear to acknowledge God's ways.

And I also believe that the older one gets the harder it is to genuinely become a believer destined for life. The pride tends to get thicker and the heart becomes more hardened from hearing the call of God and the gospel.

In Christ, always

God’s Hand & Our Free Will

Bible Highlighter · Jul 23, 2017

jimmyjimmy said:
One of the first things I learned when I began discussing God's sovereignty in election is that many people pay no attention to contact or language. Creating a view by ripping a single verses from their context (Fortune cookie theology, as I like to call it) is the norm, it seems.

Secondly, people aren't careful with God's word. They don't handle it with care and thoughtfulness, trying to get at its intended meaning.

Thirdly, it seems that many also imagine the Bible was originally written in English to Christians. There seems no understanding that the original languages have ben translated into English, and there are at times difficulties which arise because of this.

Lastly, there tends to be a literalistic approach to the texts by some which ignores how we use language. For example, the largest hook that Arminians hang their hats on is that the word, "all" always means everyone, without exception. It clearing doesn't:

Mark 1:5 "And there went out to him ALL the land of Judea, and they of Jerusalem and were ALL baptized in the river Jordan"

John 8:2 "And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and ALL the people came unto him; and he sat down and taught them."

Acts 22:15 "For thou (Paul) shalt be a witness unto ALL men of what thou hast seen or heard."

Matthew 10:22 "And ye shall be hated of ALL men for my name's sake."

Luke 23:18-19 And they all cried out at once, saying, "Away with this [Man], and release to us Barabbas" (19) who had been thrown into prison for a certain rebellion made in the city, and for murder.

Then why are there tons of verses in Scripture on free will in the BIble?
Is God out to deceive us?
Also, I am troubled at the idea of how you define morality.
Can you please explain to us how God is good when He forces some to be saved and others to be damned against their own free will choice?

God told Cain that he had a choice between good and evil (Genesis 4:7).

God says in Deuteronomy 30:19, "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:"

Jesus says, ""O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me." (Matthew 23:37) (NLT).

...

sdowney717 · Jul 23, 2017

Wordkeeper said:
Give it a rest. It's been repeated innumerable times that the arbitrary judgment is on Israel, not on individuals.

Not true at all. Talk about trying to nullify the word of God.

What does it says about the gentiles here in v24?

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

The Injustice of Arminianism

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