The Injustice of Arminianism

jimmyjimmy · Jul 23, 2017

Thir7ySev3n said:
"To answer before listening— that is folly and shame."

This is not a lecture hall. It's a discussion forum. Keep your posts pithy, and I will read them. Otherwise, I won't.

jimmyjimmy · Jul 23, 2017

Thir7ySev3n said:
only on Calvinism could this complaint be made, since God condemns people having simply not chosen them

People are condemned for their sin, and yes, not believing in Christ is sin. See John 3:18

"Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God." (John 3:18 ESV)

Thir7ySev3n · Jul 23, 2017

jimmyjimmy said:
This is not a lecture hall. It's a discussion forum. Keep your posts pithy, and I will read them. Otherwise, I won't.

You didn't read it, which was clearly evident by your counter-remarks being answered in the post you responded to. So there's no otherwise, you mean to say you'll just continue on your course. Your counter-points, in addition to being answered before they were made, were also destructive to your own unscriptural position. That is not an insult, unless you have no concern for their errors in your reasoning, in which case you insult yourself.

jimmyjimmy · Jul 23, 2017

Thir7ySev3n said:
You didn't read it, which was clearly evident by your counter-remarks being answered in the post you responded to. So there's no otherwise, you mean to say you'll just continue on your course. Your counter-points, in addition to being answered before they were made, were also destructive to your own unscriptural position. That is not an insult, unless you have no concern for their errors in your reasoning, in which case you insult yourself.

OK

Thir7ySev3n · Jul 23, 2017

jimmyjimmy said:
People are condemned for their sin, and yes, not believing in Christ is sin. See John 3:18

"Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God." (John 3:18 ESV)

Except the Scripture actually teaches that God prepares all people and calls all people to Himself. Freedom of the will and God's providence are both clearly taught, hence the endless debate. The problem is not understanding what the Scripture says about God's knowledge and how He sets things in motion according to that knowledge of our choices.

So in this position, the Scriptures are agreed with that man rejects God despite His desire to save Him, whereas on Calvinism all men go to hell who are not chosen, which is why they don't believe according to Calvinism. So on Calvinism, God creates a world, also knowing that most people will be condemned, except the difference is He is knowing His own choices to condemn them as opposed to knowing the choices men make to remain in condemnation themselves.

jimmyjimmy · Jul 23, 2017

Thir7ySev3n said:
all men go to hell who are not chosen

Men are condemned for their sin, not because they weren't chosen. That not the CAUSE of the condemnation.

Thir7ySev3n said:
So on Calvinism, God creates a world, also knowing that most people will be condemned, except the difference is He is knowing His own choices to condemn that as opposed to the choices men make to remain in condemnation themselves.

Those are identical things. In both cases God created beings destined for destruction. In your view He was forced to do this because He valued "free will" above all else. In mine, He has mercy on some because He is free to do so.

sdowney717 · Jul 23, 2017

Thir7ySev3n said:
Three massive problems:

1. I'm not convinced you even read the entire thing or you would have noticed and not responded with something I answered in anticipation of it being asked. "To answer before listening— that is folly and shame." (Proverbs 18:13)

2. Yes, God knew all that (which the Scriptures declare: Acts 17:26-27, Psalms 139, Isaiah 46:9-10), and yes, the majority will be damned (as Christ declared). What is fascinating about this complaint is, again, I answered it (in great detail, no less), and two, it is hypocritical and ironic as only on Calvinism could this complaint be made, since God condemns people having simply not chosen them, rather than on account of their rejection of His most gracious efforts according to His foreknowledge of their individual lives and world history. Calvinism is unsustainable theologically as it contradicts much of what the Scripture declares about God's purposes in the Gospel and it's preparation, whereas middle-knowledge perfectly reconciles the Scriptural declarations of man's free will and God's providence.

3. More evidence you answered before listening, I never said that people are victims of the devil uncooperatively. If you exercised a few more than a couple minutes patience reading, you may have apprehended that the assailant in this analogy was EXPLICITLY sinful mankind as he is in rejection of God. Did you literally read only the first and last sentence of that post?

God feels no compunction to show His mercy and love to all people.
God speaking to Moses, whom God had chosen,

Exodus 33:19New King James Version (NKJV)
19 Then He said, “I will make all My goodness pass before you, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before you. I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.”

Paul exposes the truth that some God hardens in their sins and does not show to them mercy, love or compasson. read Romans 9. God gives them over...people die in their sins, if God does not show them mercy to enter into a relationship with them by adopting them. Read Ephesians 1, the child being adopted is immature, and is not responsible for this adoption, it is solely the parent decision. In the same way, the covenant God established with Abraham, (the father of us all), when establishing His covenant, God put Abraham to sleep and He himself walked between the carcasses, showing that it was all on God to fulfill His obligations and not on Abraham. The covenant God established with Israel by Moses, was flawed because the people broke their covenant, God found fault with them.
.
So in the NC, which God establishes, God writes His laws to hearts and minds, as a reprogramming of them, they are new creatures, the old things have passed away. Christ is the mediator, not man.
This New Covenant is perfect, God no longer finds fault with them who are in it..

Hebrews 8
6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.

A New Covenant
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Thir7ySev3n · Jul 23, 2017

jimmyjimmy said:
Men are condemned for their sin, not because they weren't chosen. That not the CAUSE of the condemnation.

Those are identical things. In both cases God created beings destined for destruction. In your view He was forced to do this because He valued "free will" above all else. In mine, He has mercy on some because He is free to do so.

The key there is to make sure you keep emphasizing the choice of God's chosen mercy, because on the other hand we have Calvinists in a rather odd position talking about the cruelty of God for allowing some people as He foreknew to go to hell, as opposed to God sending some people to hell simply because He didn't choose them. This is unscriptural, as I'll repeat in my response to sdowney below.

sdowney717 said:
God feels no compunction to show His mercy and love to all people.
God speaking to Moses, whom God had chosen,

Exodus 33:19New King James Version (NKJV)
19 Then He said, “I will make all My goodness pass before you, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before you. I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.”

Paul exposes the truth that some God hardens in their sins and does not show to them mercy, love or compasson. read Romans 9. God gives them over...people die in their sins, if God does not show them mercy to enter into a relationship with them by adopting them. Read Ephesians 1, the child being adopted is immature, and is not responsible for this adoption, it is solely the parent decision. In the same way, the covenant God established with Abraham, (the father of us all), when establishing His covenant, God put Abraham to sleep and He himself walked between the carcasses, showing that it was all on God to fulfill His obligations and not on Abraham. The covenant God established with Israel by Moses, was flawed because the people broke their covenant, God found fault with them.
.
So in the NC, which God establishes, God writes His laws to hearts and minds, as a reprogramming of them, they are new creatures, the old things have passed away. Christ is the mediator, not man.
This New Covenant is perfect, God no longer finds fault with them who are in it..

Hebrews 8
6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.

A New Covenant
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

"From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us (Acts 17:26-27)."

"...He has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of Himself (Hebrews 9:26)."

And again: "...when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons (Galatians 4:4-5)."

That salvation is intended for all is also multiply attested: "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life (John 3:16, emphasis mine)." The Scripture continues:

"The death He died, He died to sin once for all (Romans 6:10..." And He died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for Him who died for them and was raised again (2 Corinthians 5:15)." "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9)." Jesus said: "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself (John 12:32)."

sdowney717 · Jul 23, 2017

Thir7ySev3n said:
The key there is to make sure you keep emphasizing the choice of God's chosen mercy, because on the other hand we have Calvinists in a rather odd position talking about the cruelty of God for allowing some people as He foreknew to go to hell, as opposed to God sending some people to hell simply because He didn't choose them. This is unscriptural, as I'll repeat in my response to sdowney below.

"From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us (Acts 17:26-27)."

"...He has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of Himself (Hebrews 9:26)."

And again: "...when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons (Galatians 4:4-5)."

That salvation is intended for all is also multiply attested: "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life (John 3:16, emphasis mine)." The Scripture continues:

"The death He died, He died to sin once for all (Romans 6:10..." And He died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for Him who died for them and was raised again (2 Corinthians 5:15)." "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9)." Jesus said: "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself (John 12:32)."

'That salvation is intended for all is also multiply attested: "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life (John 3:16, emphasis mine)." The Scripture continues:'

No, salvation is only intended for the lost sheep of Christ, not the unbelieving world of the goats.
Christ dies for the sheep, read John 10.
Christ dies so that believers will have eternal life..
The whole point of His coming is not that potentially He would save just anyone. Christ died for believers to have eternal life.

Christ tells us His death was for those in the world, but not those OF the world, the world being extended beyond the jews to include gentile believers alsong with jewish believers, but NO unbelievers.

Thir7ySev3n · Jul 23, 2017

sdowney717 said:
'That salvation is intended for all is also multiply attested: "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life (John 3:16, emphasis mine)." The Scripture continues:'

No, salvation is only intended for the lost sheep of Christ, not the unbelieving world of the goats.
Christ dies for the sheep, read John 10.
Christ dies so that believers will have eternal life..
The whole point of His coming is not that potentially He would save just anyone. Christ died for believers to have eternal life.

Christ tells us His death was for those in the world, but not those OF the world, the world being extended beyond the jews to include gentile believers alsong with jewish believers, but NO unbelievers.

Of course it will not apply to those who remain unbelievers.; However, that makes it no less clear that salvation was intended for all, despite that fact that, in effect, it will not apply to all. In addition to all of the other verse I just presented, Paul declares:

"This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth." (1 Timothy 2:3-4)

jimmyjimmy · Jul 23, 2017

Thir7ySev3n said:
"This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth." (1 Timothy 2:3-4)

If I had a dollar for daytime someone ripped this verse out of context and perverted its meaning, I would be a rich man.

Thir7ySev3n · Jul 23, 2017

jimmyjimmy said:
If I had a dollar for daytime someone ripped this verse out of context and perverted its meaning, I would be a rich man.

I suppose as long as you can say it..The Scripture says otherwise, however.

sdowney717 · Jul 23, 2017

Thir7ySev3n said:
Of course it will not apply to those who remain unbelievers.; However, that makes it no less clear that salvation was intended for all, despite that fact that, in effect, it will not apply to all. In addition to all of the other verse I just presented, Paul declares:

"This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth." (1 Timothy 2:3-4)

Perhaps you will understand better reading this.
You know Election according to Grace is truth. And grace means the elect obtain mercy to be begotten again, an actual salvation.

1 Peter 1:1-4New King James Version (NKJV)
Greeting to the Elect Pilgrims
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:

Grace to you and peace be multiplied.

A Heavenly Inheritance
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,

Romans 9:11
(for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),

Romans 11:5
Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

People are begotten again-born again prior to their believing in Christ.

Being sealed occurs after belief in Christ as a guarantee of eternal life.
Ephesians 1:13
In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

fhansen · Jul 23, 2017

jimmyjimmy said:
Many accuse God of being, "unfair" in His election of some, but not all, people; however, they don't seem to understand that the alternative view in which God simply provides a way for men to be saved, but leaves them to their own devices, i.e., "free will", makes God out to be truly unjust because not all people have had equal opportunity in which to make their "choice".

The Biblical doctrine of election teaches that God gives mercy on some, and justice to the rest. He would be completely just in condemning all mankind, would He not?

The alternate, and errant, view is that God gives everyone a choice, assuming that every person who has every lived has had access to good preachers, godly teachers, Bibles in their language, Christlike neighbors. . . The reality is that many many millions have lived and died without ever hearing the gospel. How "fair" is that?

Do you hold to a view of salvation which makes God out to be unjust? How do you defend your position?

Neither view that you mentioned quite fits the bill. It's very, very simple; God judges based on what we've done with what we're given- as per the Parable of the Talents for example. Knowledge, experience, background, age, grace all come into play and affect our choices. "From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked." Luke 12:48
Obviously not everyone will even hear the gospel, nor is that an absolute necessity. And justice does not demand that all deserve eternal torment BTW.

jimmyjimmy · Jul 23, 2017

Thir7ySev3n said:
I suppose as long as you can say it..The Scripture says otherwise, however.

If you consider yourself a serious student of God's word, read the context, and then get back to me.

Thir7ySev3n · Jul 23, 2017

jimmyjimmy said:
If you consider yourself a serious student of God's word, read the context, and then get back to me.

The context argument does not work here as I gave you an abundance of Scriptures in context that declare salvation was intended for the whole world and that Christ would draw all men to Himself (though not all would answer).

sdowney717 said:
Perhaps you will understand better reading this.
You know Election according to Grace is truth. And grace means the elect obtain mercy to be begotten again, an actual salvation.

1 Peter 1:1-4New King James Version (NKJV)
Greeting to the Elect Pilgrims
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:

Grace to you and peace be multiplied.

A Heavenly Inheritance
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,

Romans 9:11
(for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),

Romans 11:5
Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

People are begotten again-born again prior to their believing in Christ.

Being sealed occurs after belief in Christ as a guarantee of eternal life.
Ephesians 1:13
In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

This is why I mentioned in my first post in this topic that this issue will continue to go in circles because on both sides of the debate (free will vs. sovereignty) a premise is being used which is grounded genuinely in Scripture, but is incomplete without reconciling the two according to what the Scripture says about God's knowledge, desire, and planning. I answered all this in that first post, confirming it with Scripture throughout.

sdowney717 · Jul 23, 2017

jimmyjimmy said:
If you consider yourself a serious student of God's word, read the context, and then get back to me.

We are most definitely God's workmanship

Ecclesiastes 7:13
Consider the work of God; For who can make straight what He has made crooked?
Ecclesiastes 8:17
then I saw all the work of God, that a man cannot find out the work that is done under the sun. For though a man labors to discover it, yet he will not find it;moreover, though a wise man attempts to know it, he will not be able to find it.

Ecclesiastes 9:1
For I considered all this in my heart, so that I could declare it all: that the righteous and the wise and their works are in the hand of God. People know neither love nor hatred by anything they see before them.

Ecclesiastes 11:5
As you do not know what is the way of the wind, Orhow the bones grow in the womb of her who is with child, So you do not know the works of God who makes everything.

Isaiah 29:23
But when he sees his children, The work of My hands, in his midst, They will hallow My name, And hallow the Holy One of Jacob, And fear the God of Israel.

Jeremiah 51:10
The Lord has revealed our righteousness. Come and let us declare in Zion the work of the Lord our God.

John 6:28
Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”

John 6:29
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

John 9:3
Jesus answered, “Neither this man nor his parents sinned, but that the works of God should be revealed in him.

This here 'all' is not God working in all people OF the world, but is only for those who believe and are not OF the world , but of Christ.
1 Corinthians 12:6
And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all.

Ephesians 2:10 [Full Chapter]
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

jimmyjimmy · Jul 23, 2017

Thir7ySev3n said:
The context argument does not work here

It's not an argument, but an appeal to you to understand a biblical text properly by using the first rule of exegesis: context, context, context.

Thir7ySev3n · Jul 23, 2017

jimmyjimmy said:
It's not an argument, but an appeal to you to understand a biblical text properly by using the first rule of exegesis: context, context, context.

Context, context context is why you lost. I gave you an abundance of Scriptures in context that disprove your position.

jimmyjimmy · Jul 23, 2017

Thir7ySev3n said:
Context, context context is why you lost. I gave you an abundance of Scriptures in context that disprove your position.

Be well.

The Injustice of Arminianism

Pardoned Rebel

Pardoned Rebel

Psalm 139

Pardoned Rebel

Psalm 139

Pardoned Rebel

Newbie

Psalm 139

Newbie

Psalm 139

Pardoned Rebel

Psalm 139

Newbie

Oldbie

Pardoned Rebel

Psalm 139

Newbie

Pardoned Rebel

Psalm 139

Pardoned Rebel

Similar threads