STAGES OF DISCIPLESHIP

Arsenios · Jul 21, 2017

In this fallen life upon earth in this fallen creation:

Where and how does discipleship begin?
And where does it end?
And how does it proceed?

The matter arises in Romans 8:29-30

For whom He did foreknow,
He also did foreordain
to be conformed to the image of His Son,
that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Moreover whom he did foreordain,
them he also called:
and whom he called,
them he also justified:
and whom he justified,
them he also glorified.

This clearly shows the actions of God in the life of His disciples...
And it lists them sequentially...
So are they progressive stages of discipleship?
And if yes, what actions on the part of the disciple are appropriate for each?
And what are the features of each of them?
eg What do they look like?

The first two, God's fore-knowledge, and His fore-ordaining, are perhaps more theological than practical, for they have to do with God's inner workings, and not with anything of which we can know...

But the last three are the impact of the first two on those to whom the Call of God falls, and then after that call, the Justification by God, and then finally, the Glorification of the disciple by God...

And perhaps we can then add the sending forth by God of those who have been Glorified by God to disciple nations... eg The "Apostle-izing" of the Disciples...

I remember Paul's near lament for "Those Called to be Apostles..."

1 Corinthians 4:9-16

Since Paul commands all his followers to become as he is and describes in this passage, can we find stages of discipleship here as well?

eg Is this evidence of attainment or is its practice a means of attainment in discipleship?

Is this what discipleship looks like?

Arsenios

friend of · Jul 21, 2017

Arsenios said:
Is this what discipleship looks like?

I don't think the quality of one's ministry should be weighted by the physical subjugation one endures, nor should enduring such necessarily be the goal, but that the heart of a true disciple should be prepared to endure it if by doing so the gospel is preached to greater effect as a direct result.

I'm reminded of Hebrews 12:1-2 where Paul says to cast off anything and everything that will hinder our walk with Christ. Disciples should be pruning themselves of worldly things in a progressive way that comes by yielding to the leading of the Holy Spirit.

Arsenios · Jul 21, 2017

friend of said:
I don't think the quality of one's ministry should be weighted by the physical subjugation one endures,

Is discipleship a ministry?

I understand discipleship to be the proving of the Faith of Christ IN one's own flesh...

eg In the subjugation of the flesh under the Spirit led soul...
eg the siezing of self control from the control of the flesh
Where the self controls the flesh...
And the flesh does not control the self...

Arsenios

friend of · Jul 21, 2017

I believe one's discipleship should be heavily invested in the Great Commission, yes. All Christians have this charge, regardless of whether their designation within the body of Christ is that of a minister or not.

1 Corinthians 9:27

Paul mentions subjugation of his flesh so that he may fulfill his purpose of preaching the Gospel and so that this mission not be hindered by the demands of his flesh (i.e. desiring to rest, eat, heal)

yeshuaslavejeff · Jul 21, 2017

Arsenios said:
Since Paul commands all his followers to become as he is and describes in this passage, can we find stages of discipleship here as well?

no.

Arsenios said:
Is this evidence of attainment or is its practice a means of attainment in discipleship?

no.

Arsenios said:
Is this what discipleship looks like?

no.

Arsenios said:
Is discipleship a ministry?

no.

Arsenios said:
I understand discipleship to be the proving of the Faith of Christ IN one's own flesh...

no.

In the early centuries, true discipleship 'disappeared' along with completely selfless voluntary poverty.
"they held all things in common, no one considered anything their own" ACTS.

Since then, it has 'appeared' only where this was lived again, in line with Jesus directions and leadership.

Citizen of the Kingdom · Jul 21, 2017

Arsenios said:
In this fallen life upon earth in this fallen creation:

Where and how does discipleship begin?
And where does it end?
And how does it proceed?

The matter arises in Romans 8:29-30

For whom He did foreknow,
He also did foreordain
to be conformed to the image of His Son,
that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Moreover whom he did foreordain,
them he also called:
and whom he called,
them he also justified:
and whom he justified,
them he also glorified.

This clearly shows the actions of God in the life of His disciples...
And it lists them sequentially...
So are they progressive stages of discipleship?
And if yes, what actions on the part of the disciple are appropriate for each?
And what are the features of each of them?
eg What do they look like?

The first two, God's fore-knowledge, and His fore-ordaining, are perhaps more theological than practical, for they have to do with God's inner workings, and not with anything of which we can know...

But the last three are the impact of the first two on those to whom the Call of God falls, and then after that call, the Justification by God, and then finally, the Glorification of the disciple by God...

And perhaps we can then add the sending forth by God of those who have been Glorified by God to disciple nations... eg The "Apostle-izing" of the Disciples...

I remember Paul's near lament for "Those Called to be Apostles..."

1 Corinthians 4:9-16

Since Paul commands all his followers to become as he is and describes in this passage, can we find stages of discipleship here as well?

eg Is this evidence of attainment or is its practice a means of attainment in discipleship?

Is this what discipleship looks like?

Arsenios

2 Peter 1:4-8 seems to outline the steps of partakering of the Divine Nature
add to your faith virtue;
and to virtue, knowledge;
and to knowledge, self-control;
and to self-control, perseverance;
and to perseverance, godliness;
and to godliness, brotherly kindness;
and to brotherly kindness, love.…
Because if you possess these qualities and continue to grow in them, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.…

Apostleship = sent out. I would think that to be the office of a church planter. Paul's apostleship (as well as Barnabas) was from that appointment. Acts 13:2 ... the Holy Spirit told them, “Appoint Barnabas and Saul to do the work for which I have chosen them.”

Arsenios · Jul 22, 2017

yeshuaslavejeff said:
no. no. no. no. no.
In the early centuries, true discipleship 'disappeared' along with completely selfless voluntary poverty.
"they held all things in common, no one considered anything their own" ACTS.
Since then, it has 'appeared' only where this was lived again, in line with Jesus directions and leadership.

When Constantine 'legalized' Christianity in the Roman Empire, the persecuted Churches were flooded with converts from the countries of the Empire, and the praxis of the Faith in the Churches suffered greatly compared to that which had prevailed when Christians were simply persecuted and despised. They are persecuted and despised by most of militant Islam today, fwiw...

In response to this 'watering down' of the Faith, many Christians fled from civilization into the deserts to live the praxis of the faith in Orthodox Monasteries throughout the Middle East and elsewhere... These communities still exist, and have always existed, and without them the Churches do not sustain themselves apart from persecutions... These monastic communities, and their holy prayers, sustain the Churches and the very world itself... They are, when healthy, straight our of Acts...

Arsenios

Arsenios · Jul 22, 2017

~Cassia~ said:
2 Peter 1:4-8 seems to outline the steps of partakering of the Divine Nature

Thank-you for this lovely post...

add to your faith virtue;

So that to believe must be added the actions which constitute doing what you believe in the face of resistance, which is the meaning of virtue: 'Doing right when you do not want to do right.'
And if your steps here are seen as progressive, then you do so in order that you should attain knowledge FROM the DOING of the Faith, yes? To wit:

and to virtue, knowledge;

So that you now have the knowlege, which means "union with", the Faith which previously you did not know until it had been lived and practiced willingly against you own will...

and to knowledge, self-control;

And once you have by force modified your behavior to the standards of the Faith, you are then in a position to begin to exercise control of self so as to make virtue more innate, rather than self-imposed, yes? And this means to begin to "catch", through vigilence, the incursions of demonic forces into the now virtue-subdued passions still being demonically perpetrated...

and to self-control, perseverance;

And once we acquires the skills of self control in vigilance, we learn how to make it a habit of soul, and in all this, you can see, the growth of the New Man in Christ, and the diminution of the old man in charge prior to rebirth in the Baptismal waters of Regeneration...

and to perseverance, godliness;

Once the virtues have been established through self-control and perseverence, THEN is able to come Godliness, and in this stage, we turn our whole existence toward God in all that we do in our walk on earth, and seek only to do what God would have us to do, and in this we become God-centered in our thinking, rather than merely vigilant... We ADD to our vigilance, you see, the active seeking of God's will in all things...

and to godliness, brotherly kindness;

And ass God gives us Godliness, we find the lovingkindness of God for all men, even those who bring harm to us and falsely accuse us and do all manner of evil against us falsely as we seek to do only the will of God, and we find ourselves blessing those who curse us, and on and on, in this great Love God IS for all mankind...

and to brotherly kindness, love...

And finally, we come to God Himself, to Love, and to the Love of God for ALL creation, and that means for the Kosmos itself, the earth and all who dwell therein, the sun and the moon and the stars and the heavens... John 3:16 begins with: "For in this manner did God love the Kosmos..." This is the end, the goal, the perfection, of the Christian's Discipleship...

Because if you possess these qualities and continue to grow in them, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.…

And here we have the transition point, from discipleship to aposttleship, and it entails not mere possession, but continued growth in the things we now possess - And the Orthodox Faith teaches that there really is no upper limit to this, because God is Himself without limit, and His Love knows no bounds, and is itself the Power of the Creation of all that is created, which God loves without measure...

Apostleship = sent out. I would think that to be the office of a church planter. Paul's apostleship (as well as Barnabas) was from that appointment. Acts 13:2 ... the Holy Spirit told them, “Appoint Barnabas and Saul to do the work for which I have chosen them.”

Yes, the Apostles planted Churches, yet there are Apostles who live such angelic lives that they travel the world without leaving their cells of prayer and poverty, and bring the Grace of God to those who are far, far from any other consolation... You just never know when one of these is going to be showing up!

Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day...

Thank-you for bringing Peter's Scripture to this thread...

Arsenios

Arsenios · Jul 22, 2017

friend of said:
I believe one's discipleship should be heavily invested in the Great Commission, yes. All Christians have this charge, regardless of whether their designation within the body of Christ is that of a minister or not.

The quality of a life lived is, no question, a great witness to the Faith...

Yet the Great Commission was not given to ALL, but only to the Apostles, yes?

For it was the task of the Apostles to disciple all the peoples [ethnoi]...

But not all are called to be Apostles are they? But all ARE called to be disciples...

1 Corinthians 9:27

Paul mentions subjugation of his flesh so that he may fulfill his purpose of preaching the Gospel and so that this mission not be hindered by the demands of his flesh (i.e. desiring to rest, eat, heal)

But I subjugate my body,
and bring it into servitude:
lest to others having preached,
I myself should become unproven.

"Proven", you see, is ontological, not meerely verbal...

This would seem to be saying that preaching the Gospel is not enough...
He ALSO needs to enslave his body by physical subjugation...
And this because, I should think, because the Faith is PROVEN in one's own flesh, yes?

This, at any rate, is the underestanding of the Church for 2000 years - Paul discipled askesis, even in his own flesh so as to subjugate it as a slave to Righteousness...

Arsenios

Arsenios · Jul 22, 2017

~Cassia~ said:
2 Peter 1:4-8 seems to outline the steps of partakering of the Divine Nature
add to your faith virtue;
and to virtue, knowledge;
and to knowledge, self-control;
and to self-control, perseverance;
and to perseverance, godliness;
and to godliness, brotherly kindness;
and to brotherly kindness, love.…
Because if you possess these qualities and continue to grow in them, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.…

Apostleship = sent out. I would think that to be the office of a church planter. Paul's apostleship (as well as Barnabas) was from that appointment. Acts 13:2 ... the Holy Spirit told them, “Appoint Barnabas and Saul to do the work for which I have chosen them.”

So Cassia, have you ever smelled the lovely aroma of the resin of Cassia as its holy smoke arises as incense in the Great Censing of the Church?

One of my favorite names for a woman or a daughter would be Cassianna...

Arsenios

Arsenios · Jul 22, 2017

Would the beattitudes fit into a schema of stages in discipleship?

And if yes, then how?

Blessed are the poor in spirit:
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are they that mourn:
for they shall be comforted.
Blessed are the meek:
for they shall inherit the earth.
Blessed are the merciful:
for they shall obtain mercy.
Blessed are the pure in heart:
for they shall see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers:
for they shall be called the children of God.
Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake:
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you,
and persecute you,
and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely,
for my sake.
Rejoice, and be exceeding glad:
for great is your reward in heaven:
for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

Arsenios

Citizen of the Kingdom · Jul 22, 2017

Arsenios said:
So Cassia, have you ever smelled the lovely aroma of the resin of Cassia as its holy smoke arises as incense in the Great Censing of the Church?

One of my favorite names for a woman or a daughter would be Cassianna...

Arsenios

I have cassia oil that I use in the diffuser. Smells very much like cinnamon. It's also great for puffing lips

so sometimes I'll put some on my chapstick.

Citizen of the Kingdom · Jul 22, 2017

Arsenios said:
Thank-you for this lovely post...
So that to believe must be added the actions which constitute doing what you believe in the face of resistance, which is the meaning of virtue: 'Doing right when you do not want to do right.'

It couldn't really be a belief unless it was put into practise I would think. Otherwise it's just an ideology.

And if your steps here are seen as progressive, then you do so in order that you should attain knowledge FROM the DOING of the Faith, yes? To wit:
So that you now have the knowlege, which means "union with", the Faith which previously you did not know until it had been lived and practiced willingly against you own will...

knowledge is of the mind/soul/tree of life while wisdom in action is completely different. I don't know what you mean 'union with'

And once you have by force modified your behavior to the standards of the Faith, you are then in a position to begin to exercise control of self so as to make virtue more innate, rather than self-imposed, yes?

No. Submerging yourself in the word purges the old nature. Forced modification would not be a product of wisdom rather of knowledge fained.

And this means to begin to "catch", through vigilence, the incursions of demonic forces into the now virtue-subdued passions still being demonically perpetrated...

would that be the same as bringing every thought captive to Christ?

And once we acquires the skills of self control in vigilance, we learn how to make it a habit of soul, and in all this, you can see, the growth of the New Man in Christ, and the diminution of the old man in charge prior to rebirth in the Baptismal waters of Regeneration...

Regeneration happens within the seed at rebirth. Helping to grow that seed by putting oneself according to Romans 12:1-3 would be the way, I would think. Your way sounds a bit backward to me.

Once the virtues have been established through self-control and perseverence, THEN is able to come Godliness, and in this stage, we turn our whole existence toward God in all that we do in our walk on earth, and seek only to do what God would have us to do, and in this we become God-centered in our thinking, rather than merely vigilant... We ADD to our vigilance, you see, the active seeking of God's will in all things...

Constant vigilence perhaps as stepping stones of the virtues one by one may help, yes.

And as God gives us Godliness, we find the lovingkindness of God for all men, even those who bring harm to us and falsely accuse us and do all manner of evil against us falsely as we seek to do only the will of God, and we find ourselves blessing those who curse us, and on and on, in this great Love God IS for all mankind...

Whatever fraternal-love would entail. I think Jesus was less inclined to call enemies brothers altho He did say to love them nontheless.

And finally, we come to God Himself, to Love, and to the Love of God for ALL creation, and that means for the Kosmos itself, the earth and all who dwell therein, the sun and the moon and the stars and the heavens... John 3:16 begins with: "For in this manner did God love the Kosmos..." This is the end, the goal, the perfection, of the Christian's Discipleship...

Agape love presumably follows filial love.

And here we have the transition point, from discipleship to aposttleship, and it entails not mere possession, but continued growth in the things we now possess - And the Orthodox Faith teaches that there really is no upper limit to this, because God is Himself without limit, and His Love knows no bounds, and is itself the Power of the Creation of all that is created, which God loves without measure...

Yes, the Apostles planted Churches, yet there are Apostles who live such angelic lives that they travel the world without leaving their cells of prayer and poverty, and bring the Grace of God to those who are far, far from any other consolation... You just never know when one of these is going to be showing up!

Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day...

Thank-you for bringing Peter's Scripture to this thread...

Arsenios

God bless

Arsenios · Jul 22, 2017

~Cassia~ said:
I have cassia oil that I use in the diffuser. Smells very much like cinnamon. It's also great for puffing lips so sometimes I'll put some on my chapstick.

What in Canada does it mean to "puff lips"??

A.

Arsenios · Jul 22, 2017

~Cassia~ said:
It couldn't really be a belief unless it was put into practise I would think. Otherwise it's just an ideology.

Agreed, which means that when belief is put into action, only then can it be called faith... But this is the beginnings... Where Christ said: "Let anyone desiring to follow Me first deny himself..."

knowledge is of the mind/soul/tree of life while wisdom in action is completely different. I don't know what you mean 'union with'

'Union with' means 'real knowledge'. As in Adam knew Eve... Salvation in Christ is parallel to that union, but immeasurably more so... To know knowledge of the mind is to know ABOUT something - Say to know about hockey - But you do not KNOW hockey until you are a full participant in it... Likewise with Christ - John wrote that eternal Life is to KNOW the One True God and His Son, Jesus Christ... This KNOWING is ontological union witht God, and is not merely acquiring all the things taught in God's Word... It is called the Mystery of the Marriage of the Bridegroom with His Bride... The Bridegroom, of course, is Christ...

Outside this union, we can only know about it - We cannot know it... To know is to do, and through the doing, to be... Discipleship is the Way to this BEing... And in order to have God, we must first deny self...

No. Submerging yourself in the word purges the old nature. Forced modification would not be a product of wisdom rather of knowledge fained.

It has to be forced...

From the time of John the Baptist until now
The Kingdom of Heaven is permitting violence
And the violent are siezing it by force...

Repentance is the forced expulsion from one's soul of all evils therein... It is a cathartic purging of evil from the heart, resulting in a good conscience...

would that be the same as bringing every thought captive to Christ?

When successfully practiced it is... But that is not something someone can just decide to do and then do it... It takes years of a lot of effort... And much more is involved...

Regeneration happens within the seed at rebirth. Helping to grow that seed by putting oneself according to Romans 12:1-3 would be the way, I would think. Your way sounds a bit backward to me.

Presenting your body as a living sacrifice is the essence of self-denial, and subduing it in order to do so entails forcing yourself to do what you would not, and to not do what you would, and as Paul reported, that does not happen outside of Christ...

Constant vigilence perhaps as stepping stones of the virtues one by one may help, yes.

Constant vigilance over one's soul means setting ones intellect as the guard-dog of the gate of one's soul, and permitting no entry into the heart of the soul of any kind of evil thought or image or action... That guard cannot be set apart from the acquisition of the virtue which then dictates its parameters according to actual experience...

Whatever fraternal-love would entail. I think Jesus was less inclined to call enemies brothers altho He did say to love them nontheless.

Loving enemies whole-heartedly is not exactly a beginning point, eh?

Agape love presumably follows filial love.

John 3:16 does not say that God so loved mankind that He sent His Son...
But that He so loved the Kosmos....
So for us to become one with God, which IS the union of the Mystery of the Marriage of the Lamb, then we too must come to love all creation as God loves all of it...

God bless

Your blessing is my treasury...

And back at ya!

Arsenios

Citizen of the Kingdom · Jul 22, 2017

Arsenios said:
....
It hs to be forced... Repentance is the forced expulsion from one's soul of all evils therein... It is a cathartic purging of evil from the heart, resulting in a good conscience...
Arsenios

Quitting is not the same as surrender. jm2c While a good conscience cann only be found at the throne of grace to purge self of conscious sins. The blood of Christ is the only covering.

Arsenios · Jul 22, 2017

~Cassia~ said:
Quitting is not the same as surrender. jm2c While a good conscience can only be found at the throne of grace to purge self of conscious sins. The blood of Christ is the only covering.

What is 'jm2c' ?

We are speaking of discipleship, because ALL are called to discipleship:
"After you (Apostles) depart, DISCIPLE ALL the peoples (of the earth)..."
The very first word of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is REPENT!
"Repent (and be baptized), for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand(here and now)..."
For from the time of John the Baptist until now
The Kingdom of Heaven is permitting violence
And the violent are siezing it by force."

Denial of self is a forceful action...
Pitting self against self...
The God-Quest!

Arsenios

tturt · Jul 23, 2017

Wondering what your definition of justification is? Thanks.

Arsenios · Jul 23, 2017

tturt said:
Wondering what your definition of justification is? Thanks.

In your understanding, and in its many usages, could you substitute the more literal term "rectify"?

It is part of a family of terms in the Greek that all begin with the "DIK-" root, which means "RIGHT-"
If something is 'right', it is by derivation 'just'...

So that justification means 'the making right' of something or someone...
In a legalistic sense, then, (another derivative), it then means "the judging right" of something or someone.

It is this latter meaning that has arisen in the west and carries the further derivative "declaring right"...

In historical Christian usage, a righteous person is one who IS righhteous, and that means is righteous before God. Paul was righteous AFTER encountering Christ on the road to Damascus... Prior to that, he was DECLARED righteous by the Jews, but as he later confessed, the Jews had a great zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For Paul, that lack of knowledge, you see, was RECTIFIED in that encounter, and was further rectified across the rest of his life... And apart from an encounter with God, one cannot know God, but can only know ABOUT God... eg One can only hear reports from those who have encountered God, or else SPECULATE according to fallen human standards of knowledge...

So that for a Christian, righteousness is right relationship with God, and justification is the making of that right relationship with God within a person...

And this is why the first step in that making of one's self right with God is one's response to the first commandment of the Gospel, which is: "BE YE REPENTING" (for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand). One must commit one's self to the turning away from worldly things and embrace those things that are heavenly. And the process of doing so is a process of justification, or "right"-ification, or making right... And this is done in response to the CALL of God at the HANDS of the servants of God, and the simply fact is that we CANNOT make ourselves RIGHT with God - Only God can do so... But we CAN live ongoing lives of repentance, and if we do so, God will justify us - He will make us right with Him, will forgive our sins, and will heal the infirmities we have that give rise to our sins... And as we continue along a lifetime of this way of living repentantly, He will perfect His Power in our weakness, but not in our sins...

That was a sneaky little question, you rotten child!

Hope the above is helpful!

Time for Services...

Arsenios

Citizen of the Kingdom · Jul 23, 2017

Wondering what your definition of sanctification is? Thanks.

STAGES OF DISCIPLESHIP

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