Friends of Opposite Sex staying the night

TLK Valentine · Jul 20, 2017

John 1720 said:
In some ways

Proverbs 21:9 Better to dwell in a corner of a housetop, than in a house shared with a contentious woman.

no, that's not the one. Hey, how about

Proverbs 21:19 Better to dwell in the wilderness, than with a contentious and angry woman.

okay so we're not talking contentious either - she might even be pretty sweet
So we may be talking about sacrifice?

Matthew 8:19-20 Then a certain scribe came and said to Him, "Teacher, I will follow You wherever You go. And Jesus said to him, "Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay His head."

Sacrifice for what purpose, though?

John 1720 · Jul 20, 2017

Hi Sir,
Your post goes far beyond the OP and reflects a general unhappiness with the American Church, without specifics but casting shadows without a net. I'd be happy to speak with you either privately or if you want to open a thread on what is bothering you about the Church and its direction. That said I will do my best to answer you although I sense this it off-topic from the discussion of this thread.

yeshuaslavejeff said:
When you tell the truth as revealed by the Father in heaven, in line with all of Scripture and while abiding and living in union in Jesus as written in the New Testament, all of the so-called "false witness" is from ungodly sources attacking the truth and defending the lies. This is normal and expected, as Jesus says plainly - we are treated no better than Jesus was treated, since Jesus is hated, we are hated, whenever we stand up for the truth.

Yes, I agree what we are after is the truth of God which He revealed through His Son Christ Jesus my Lord. I also believe in living in union with Christ in the unity of the Holy Spirit which abides in me and upon all who trust in Him and are called according to His purpose. The Church has survived false witnesses for millennia so I trust nothing done in this day and age can thwart God's plan; which is to bring the Gospel to the ends of the earth. There is no doubt that the Church belongs to Christ as his prayer in John 17 - the Prayer of Jesus really says it all "

John 17 - The prayer of Jesus the night before the cross said:
13 But now I (Jesus) come to You (Father), and these things I speak in the world, that they may have My joy fulfilled in themselves (Christ's disciples). 14 I have given them Your Word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 15 I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one (we are protected from Satan the gates of hell shall not prevail against His Church). 16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them by Your truth. Your Word is truth. 18 As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. (The church is on mission with Christ till He comes again) 19 And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.
Then Jesus Prays for All Believers throughout time
20 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; (This would be through the word of His Apostles captured in the New Testament as well as the Law and prophets, which speak to Him and then His prayer tells us what this will look like) 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. (We are then to be the arms, feet, hands and voice of Jesus and bring in all who will believe to the Golory of God the Father through His Son) 22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: (We are His because His Spirit is in us) 23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.
24 “Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me. 26 And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.”

Christ then is moving through the nations and the Church is on mission with Jesus to the ends of the earth, after which time it has been completed will be the end of the Gospel Age and His return for His elect - the Church - will occur. We do not know the day, nor the hour but we do know the mission. And so those that love the Lord press on!

- Matthew 24:14 “And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

What does the Work of the Holy Spirit look like in a healthy Church? In John 16 Jesus tells us

... sorrow has filled your heart. 7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper (the Holy Spirit) will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. 8 And when He has come, He will
1. convict the world of sin
2. and of righteousness
3. and of judgment:
9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

So the North American Church, The South American Church, The Austrailian Church, the European Church, the African Church, and the Asian Church is unified in the Holy Spirit. The Church at large all belongs to Christ and are called to be sent into this dying world to preach a message of life contained in the Gospel that includes speaking about sin, righteousness and judgment which is all contained in Christ.

yeshuaslavejeff said:
Notice He declared society is pernicious, and much more truth - avoided by most groups today (for whatever reason(s) ) ... Notice He declared that whatever the world holds up in honor and praise, God calls lower than poop. Thus what the world and the worldly exalts, God brings down.

Yes, this world is already judged but grace and truth has come through Jesus Christ our Lord and all honor and glory forever is in Him who loved us and gave Himself for us to the Glory of God our Father.
He is the reason we are and any righteous deeds done in the Spirit for His cause really all belong to Him. This is why all crowns shall be cast before Him.

yeshuaslavejeff said:
This is and has been true always, and very evident in the usa since before 1950.
When anyone stands up for the truth, as Jesus says, most of the groups they were in will kick them out - it stands written and has not changed.
Finally, as Jesus says "Woe to you when all men speak well of you.... " in conjunction / in harmony/ with all just posted and with all Scripture. "That which is broadcast as the truth, is lies;
that which is called a lie (throughout society), is the truth."

Test everything. Even if a so-called "Apostle" or "angel of light" shows up with a message supposedly from God. Many in the limelight the last 75 years have been totally exposed as frauds, Scripturally, Truthfully, for the heresies they taught (that were popular and still are) .....

The Church will always have its tares and wheat until Christ comes again but He told us not to worry because when both are full grown it will be easy to tell. Keep looking at the progress and inroads the Gospel is making and just trust and obey and you will still have His joy in your heart. Yes, blessed are they who mourn for the sins of this world and the casualities of the fight, the deceit and the lies about our beloved Jesus, His cross, His resurrection and how the world devalues His love. Mourn and pray like Daniel did for his people and all the prophets before and after. But know God and the song of the Bride shall prevail in due time and that Jesus will bid us to arise when the work is done at the end of the Day.

In Christ,
John 17:20

Dave-W · Jul 21, 2017

ExodusMe said:
You just did this out of convenience not out of biblical wisdom.

So basically you are saying to disregard this COMMAND:

John 7:24
Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.

John 1720 · Jul 21, 2017

TLK Valentine said:
Sacrifice for what purpose, though?

Perhaps sacrificing some creature comforts for the great Name of the lovingly pure Name of Jesus; for Christians are called by that Name. Christians might do well to remember that their actions can reflect upon the Lord. I for one am pretty tired of hearing about pastors and priests who make a mockery of the Name of Jesus. I know we are not speaking specifically about sin on this occasion but I must ask, why risk anything that might cast a shadow of doubt of who we are in Christ? Why provide the world with yet another excuse to mock Christianity and say we are no different than the rest of the world though we name Christ as Lord.

Romans 2:21-24 You, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that a man should not steal, do you steal? You who say, “Do not commit adultery,” do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? You who make your boast in the law, do you dishonor God through breaking the law? For “the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you,” as it is written.

It's like the modern day parable of the dad, a man of means, saying goodbye as he drops his son off to College. The dad, seeing the opportunity to give a parting word of advice to the boy said, "Son please be sure to take good care of the most precious gift I ever gave you," The boy responded, "Do you mean paying for my tuition or the car you just bought me?" The father responded, "No son, while I'm glad I was able to provide you with those things you need to know the most precious gift I gave you is the same one my dad gave me and his dad before him. That gift, so far, has stood the test of time, in hardships, in war, in marriages, with children, friends and business. That would be the gift of our family name, which has been kept it with both integrity and honor son. Even if you should lose everything else in life know this: They can't ever take your integrity from you. You have to give that away."

The Bible tells us: A name, that is a good name, is rather to be chosen over great wealth; too often we take risks that might cast the shadow of doubt and dispersion on our walk with the Lord. Jesus said, "Whatever you have done to the least of my servants I assure you have done it unto Me." There's little doubt that we who are called by His Name also reflect upon the Name of Christ. It's always a good idea to think any situation through.

dayhiker · Jul 21, 2017

I have read a lot of posts on the web over the last 20+ years and I've talked to quite a few people in person. I've yet to have anyone say of even hint that they have turned away from God because an unmarried couple stayed in a hotel room together or that they would turn from God if they knew some Christians did that.
So this issue isn't a sin and doesn't even meet the test that Paul gives us when talking about disputable things of differences between a weak and strong brother. That doing something would cause a weak brother to forsake Jesus.

John 1720 · Jul 21, 2017

dayhiker said:
I have read a lot of posts on the web over the last 20+ years and I've talked to quite a few people in person. I've yet to have anyone say of even hint that they have turned away from God because an unmarried couple stayed in a hotel room together or that they would turn from God if they knew some Christians did that.
So this issue isn't a sin and doesn't even meet the test that Paul gives us when talking about disputable things of differences between a weak and strong brother. That doing something would cause a weak brother to forsake Jesus.

You must realize that experiences differ cross culturally and even inter culturally. I can tell you a case of a Muslim man who at first was at first very interested in hearing more about Isa Mesih (Jesus Christ). He was invited over to hear more by a friend of ours. All was going well as the team and our host shared the Scriptures with him. Everyone was sitting cross legged on the floor in a circle speaking about prophesies concerning Christ when he asked, does your Scripture truly say this? One of the party opened his Arabic Bible to the text and then slid it across the floor to him, "See for yourself!" This offended the man and he arose and said, "We honor the Quran in my house by putting that book in the highest place. Why would I ever desire to believe in a book you have such little regard for by sliding it across the floor." He then abruptly left. An American Christian had put a cross cultural stumbling block in front of him because he neglected to weigh cultural perceptions. I can also tell you that among Muslims, who happen to be the largest sector of the unreached people for the Gospel of Christ, how you live your life speaks volumes to them. It would be the height of folly to ever put an obstacle to their faith like a team member sleeping over a single woman's house. When I am overseas we guys don't even visit a single woman's house to have chai for the same reason. Certainly I do not think the OP topic amounted to sin but I do think it is simply unwise to put a stumbling block in front of anyone who does not think culturally or inter-culturally the same way you do.

In Christ,
John 17:20

Dave-W · Jul 21, 2017

So now putting the bible on the floor is a sin??

John 1720 · Jul 21, 2017

Dave-W said:
So now putting the bible on the floor is a sin??

Stumbling blocks do not always equal sin. How we treat something shows how much we value it so in that case it was perceived as a matter of disrespect for God's Holy Word. His action would have been okay for the most part in our culture but the point is that was not okay in his and sent the wrong message and an opportunity was lost for the Gospel. It also upset the host who had 4 years earlier converted to Christianity. Remember Paul saying

1 Corinthians 9:22
to the weak I became as weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

For the sake of Christ we ate things we would not eat and to be good hosts we followed the customs of the locale populace. A small sacrifice to be sure to win some to Christ. The Great commission is on our mind first and foremost and trumps our own agenda.

Romans 14:11-12
For it is written: “As I live, says the LORD, every knee shall bow to Me, and every tongue shall confess to God.” So then each of us shall give account of himself to God. 13 Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother’s way.

TLK Valentine · Jul 21, 2017

John 1720 said:
Perhaps sacrificing some creature comforts for the great Name of the lovingly pure Name of Jesus; for Christians are called by that Name.

Sacrifice for the sake of sacrifice doesn't seem to accomplish much except score brownie points with The Man Upstairs...

Christians might do well to remember that their actions can reflect upon the Lord. I for one am pretty tired of hearing about pastors and priests who make a mockery of the Name of Jesus. I know we are not speaking specifically about sin on this occasion but I must ask, why risk anything that might cast a shadow of doubt of who we are in Christ?

And does turning away a friend in need protect one from such a shadow?

Why provide the world with yet another excuse to mock Christianity and say we are no different than the rest of the world though we name Christ as Lord.

I couldn't agree more -- the difference is, I see turning away a friend in order to protect one's own sanctimony to be just such an excuse.

It's like the modern day parable of the dad, a man of means, saying goodbye as he drops his son off to College. The dad, seeing the opportunity to give a parting word of advice to the boy said, "Son please be sure to take good care of the most precious gift I ever gave you," The boy responded, "Do you mean paying for my tuition or the car you just bought me?" The father responded, "No son, while I'm glad I was able to provide you with those things you need to know the most precious gift I gave you is the same one my dad gave me and his dad before him. That gift, so far, has stood the test of time, in hardships, in war, in marriages, with children, friends and business. That would be the gift of our family name, which has been kept it with both integrity and honor son. Even if you should lose everything else in life know this: They can't ever take your integrity from you. You have to give that away."

The Bible tells us: A name, that is a good name, is rather to be chosen over great wealth; too often we take risks that might cast the shadow of doubt and dispersion on our walk with the Lord. Jesus said, "Whatever you have done to the least of my servants I assure you have done it unto Me." There's little doubt that we who are called by His Name also reflect upon the Name of Christ. It's always a good idea to think any situation through.

But of course... except in the case of your parable, it would help to differentiate between integrity (which is what Jesus was teaching us to value) and reputation (not a trivial thing, but not nearly as important). I'll see your college story and raise you a Good Samaritan -- he had evert reason to leave the man to die by the side of the road just as the priest and the Levite did; he certainty had every reason to think he'd get blamed if he brought the wounded man into town. Bit he still did the right thing -- precisely because it was the right thing.

You are called up to give your life for Christ -- not to shy away because such and such an action might make you look bad in the eyes of those who don't know better.

Remember, the authorities thought Jesus was a revolutionary and a troublemaker, hostile audiences thought he was a sanctimonious heretic, and his own family at one point thought he had cracked up. None of that stopped him from doing what, in his heart, he knew was right.

John 1720 · Jul 21, 2017

TLK Valentine said:
Sacrifice for the sake of sacrifice doesn't seem to accomplish much except score brownie points with The Man Upstairs...

Living your life for Christ beyond reproach isn't to score brownie points - its actually quite the opposite.

TLK Valentine said:
And does turning away a friend in need protect one from such a shadow?
I couldn't agree more -- the difference is, I see turning away a friend in order to protect one's own sanctimony to be just such an excuse.

Think you need to read the OP again - no one was turning away a friend. She just wanted to crash at her male friends house because it was convenient.

TLK Valentine said:
But of course... except in the case of your parable, it would help to differentiate between integrity (which is what Jesus was teaching us to value) and reputation (not a trivial thing, but not nearly as important). I'll see your college story and raise you a Good Samaritan -- he had evert reason to leave the man to die by the side of the road just as the priest and the Levite did; he certainty had every reason to think he'd get blamed if he brought the wounded man into town. Bit he still did the right thing -- precisely because it was the right thing.

Except you missed the mark there is no Good Samaritan component to the OP. Sounds like you wish there was but your answering a strawman question nobody asked.

TLK Valentine said:
You are called up to give your life for Christ -- not to shy away because such and such an action might make you look bad in the eyes of those who don't know better.

Hmm this is very interesting; an Agnostic advising a Christian on how to be a Christian?

Still I think I'll have to pass on your Sunday school lesson, as well as dismiss your lack of knowledge of who I am in Christ as a product of sheer speculative fantasy. It's disingenuous, since you have no clue who I am or how I live my life, that you are privy to my motivations. One can only conclude therefore that the above statement has its genesis in sheer ignorance.

TLK Valentine said:
Remember, the authorities thought Jesus was a revolutionary and a troublemaker, hostile audiences thought he was a sanctimonious heretic, and his own family at one point thought he had cracked up. None of that stopped him from doing what, in his heart, he knew was right.

While I do not entirely agree with you at least you're getting somewhat warmer. The Sanhedrin painted him as a revolutionary and troublemaker because they wanted the Romans to bring charges against Him. Unfortunately Pilate found no fault in Him and wanted to release Him which infuriated the Jewish leaders. Historically it can be shown that it was Pilate's own fears about stirring up the Jerusalem again as the real reason he acquiesced and had Him executed. Yes, I too admire Jesus for always doing what was right despite cultural pressures but as I said in an earlier post there is no canonical record of Jesus crashing at a single woman's house and staying alone with her. Jesus didn't just randomly break traditions and cultural norms either but in many cases followed them except where they hindered God's work. And when He did so He provided in depth explanations why He didn't follow cultural norms.
In Christ, John 17:20

TLK Valentine · Jul 21, 2017

John 1720 said:
Living your life for Christ beyond reproach isn't to score brownie points - its actually quite the opposite.

Then the sacrifice does indeed have a purpose... what was it again?

Think you need to read the OP again - no one was turning away a friend. She just wanted to crash at her male friends house because it was convenient.

And she needed advice as to whether or not this was a problem -- what do you think those who are saying that it is expect her male friend to do?

Except you missed the mark there is no Good Samaritan component to the OP. Sounds like you wish there was but your answering a strawman question nobody asked.

You know what they say about a friend in need....

I'm looking at this from the male friend's POV -- he's helping her, she's accepting it. If she thinks accepting his assistance is a problem because people will talk, well, that's her choice. But the people around here who are talking about these two as if there shouldn't be any contact at all is stunning.

Granted, I probably should've reversed the Good Samaritan parable to look at it from the injured man's POV --- if he lets a hated Samaritan help him, whatever will people think?

Hmm this is very interesting; an Agnostic advising a Christian on how to be a Christian?

Couldn't hurt...

Still I think I'll have to pass on your Sunday school lesson, as well as dismiss your lack of knowledge of who I am in Christ as a product of sheer speculative fantasy. It's disingenuous, since you have no clue who I am or how I live my life, that you are privy to my motivations. One can only conclude therefore that the above statement has its genesis in sheer ignorance.

Your contempt does more to "cast a shadow of doubt of who you are in Christ" than any response thus far. Be proud of what you've accomplished.

While I do not entirely agree with you at least you're getting somewhat warmer.

It was bount to happen for one of us eventually.

The Sanhedrin painted him as a revolutionary and troublemaker because they wanted the Romans to bring charges against Him. Unfortunately Pilate found no fault in Him and wanted to release Him which infuriated the Jewish leaders.

Most likely it was specifically to infuriate the Jewish leaders -- Pilate never missed an opportunity to show the Jewish "leaders" that he, not they, were in charge.

Historically it can be shown that it was Pilate's own fears about stirring up the Jerusalem again as the real reason he acquiesced and had Him executed.

I would very much like to see that -- so long as you mean the historical Pontius Pilate, not the milquetoast portrayed in the Bible.

The same Pilate who, shortly after arriving in Judea, raided the Temple's treasury to fix Jerusalem's aqueducts, and when the people protested in the streets, sent out the soldiers to slaughter them....

The same Pilate who, in AD 36, when a wannabe Messiah who claimed to be Moses reincarnated led his followers to the top of Mt. Gerizim to receive a sign, sent one, in the form of a thousand soldiers who scattered the crowd and executed the ringleaders on the spot....

The same Pilate who had so many hundreds, if not thousands, of Jews put to death without even bothering with trials, that the Jewish people finally made an official complaint to the Roman government to have him removed (that Mt. Gerizim fiasco turned out to be the proverbial last straw)...

You really think a guy like that is going to be gun-shy about nailing one itinerant street preacher from the Galilean boondocks to a cross? I'm not seeing the fear...

Yes, I too admire Jesus for always doing what was right despite cultural pressures but as I said in an earlier post there is no canonical record of Jesus crashing at a single woman's house and staying alone with her.

There's no canonical record of Jesus smiling, laughing, doing his laundry or using an outhouse... but I think we can safely assume that he did all these thing at least once.

What there is a canonical record of Jesus doing is taking money from women and allowing them to bankroll his ministry (Luke 8:1-3) -- which, in such a deeply patriarchal society as the Jews had at the time, would've been far more scandalous than if he had crashed.

Besides, there are far lower people on the ancient Jewish social ladder than women --not too many, but lepers, to be sure -- and Jesus had no objection to crashing with Simon when he was in Bethany (Mark 14:3 and Matthew 26:6)

What message are we to take away from that? "Hang with the lepers all you want, but not women -- people will talk!"

Jesus didn't just randomly break traditions and cultural norms either but in many cases followed them except where they hindered God's work. And when He did so He provided in depth explanations why He didn't follow cultural norms.

In Christ, John 17:20

Sometimes he did, and other times, such an explanation wasn't necessary. Remember, those "cultural norms" as you call them were, in fact, religious rules... In Israel at the time, all but impossible to separate the two.

The Gospel writers went out of their way to show Jesus going out of his way to break those religious rules (sometimes literally; Jesus was in no hurry to resurrect Lazarus, do you know why?), and for a simple reason -- Jesus is the Lord, after all -- and the rules only apply to the followers of a religion, not the deity.

John 1720 · Jul 22, 2017

TLK Valentine said:
Then the sacrifice does indeed have a purpose... what was it again?

Hi Sir,
Did you not read the rest of the post? Next I said:

Think you need to read the OP again - no one was turning away a friend. She just wanted to crash at her male friends house because it was convenient.

to which you replied:

TLK Valentine said:
And she needed advice as to whether or not this was a problem

-- what do you think those who are saying that it is expect her male friend to do?

No, she asked us if this was a sin. I said no but stated the practice was unwise and may misconstrue the perception of others towards her Christian walk.
Sorry, I don't understand the context of what you are asking.

TLK Valentine said:
You know what they say about a friend in need....

What was her friend in need of?

TLK Valentine said:
I'm looking at this from the male friend's POV -- he's helping her, she's accepting it. If she thinks accepting his assistance is a problem because people will talk, well, that's her choice.

But the people around here who are talking about these two as if there shouldn't be any contact at all is stunning.

She said nothing of whether she asked him to say over or he did, so I'm not quite clear of what you are implying was lost; honor, valiance? Discretion is the better part of valor.
I don't know who "the people around here" are but I never stated she should break off contact with him. I only said she shouldn't sleep alone with him at his house.

Next: you missed the mark there is no Good Samaritan component to the OP. Sounds like you wish there was but your answering a strawman question nobody asked.

TLK Valentine said:
Granted, I probably should've reversed the Good Samaritan parable to look at it from the injured man's POV --- if he lets a hated Samaritan help him, whatever will people think?

Who exactly would have been injured in this case? Let me guess, the male ego of the host? Really, have males become that oversensitive these days? Even if he did make the suggestion for her to stay over so what? If it were me I'd applaud her response of "thanks but no thanks" because she more deeply considered the ramifications of her Christian witness even if I didn't. I respect women with personal integrity just as I do men.

Next: Hmm this is very interesting; an Agnostic advising a Christian on how to be a Christian?

TLK Valentine said:
Couldn't hurt...

And here I too will say "thanks but no thanks". I think I'll stick to the Good Book and the Holy Spirit
Next:
You said:

TLK Valentine said:
You are called up to give your life for Christ --

not to shy away because such and such an action might make you look bad in the eyes of those who don't know better.

I was of course responding in kind to the personalized pronoun of "you" as being "me" by order of the King's English. While I agree I am called to give up my life the "you" infers and presupposes flaws in my walk with Christ but obviously that is subjective since you really don't even know me, what my walk looks like, or what I do for others. I responded:

I think I'll have to pass on your Sunday school lesson, as well as dismiss your lack of knowledge of who I am in Christ as a product of sheer speculative fantasy.
It's disingenuous, since you have no clue who I am or how I live my life, that you are privy to my motivations.

One can only conclude therefore that your statement have their genesis in sheer ignorance.

You then responded with

TLK Valentine said:
Your contempt does more to "cast a shadow of doubt of who you are in Christ" than any response thus far. Be proud of what you've accomplished.

Ignorance literally means "without knowledge". So I was basically stating your thoughts and advice for me had their genesis or beginning without any true knowledge of who I really am, thus making them subjective. Yet here you go again now accusing me of contempt for you. Contempt for you means: "that I am arrogantly considering you to be a person beneath consideration, worthless, or deserving scorn". I did no such thing in my statement and I do not possess any contempt for you How am I to conclude anything other than your statement being an overreaction to my correction; the correction being that you simply do not know me well enough to make any judgments on my Christian walk. BTW "Ignorance" does not have to be a pejorative word, if so "agnostic" would be one as well, since it too means without knowledge.

Next up I said
While I do not entirely agree with you at least you're getting somewhat warmer.

to which you responded:

TLK Valentine said:
It was bount to happen for one of us eventually.

Yep, if two people talk to one another long enough they're bound to agree on something

Maybe that's why we're all here. While sharing viewpoints might be opposing there is something to learn from one another. Hopefully rational discussion make us more objective than stewing in our own worldview with no one to oppose us. That is true even if we don't entirely close the gap between our independent rationale.
All I have time for right now since the Gym calls.

TLK Valentine · Jul 22, 2017

John 1720 said:
Hi Sir,
Did you not read the rest of the post? Next I said:

Think you need to read the OP again - no one was turning away a friend. She just wanted to crash at her male friends house because it was convenient.

to which you replied:

No, she asked us if this was a sin. I said no but stated the practice was unwise and may misconstrue the perception of others towards her Christian walk.

Most people would consider "Problem" to be the equivalent of "sin" in the aforementioned context.

Sorry, I don't understand the context of what you are asking.

So noted.

What was her friend in need of?

Here's where you got confused, and I must admit, I should have explained this better. She is the friend in need. I was looking at this from the point of view of her male friend. Obviously if she thinks staying over is a sin/problem, she shouldn't do it. I just think it's a good thing that he doesn't seem to believe there is so, otherwise he would obviously never allow it...

She said nothing of whether she asked him to say over or he did, so I'm not quite clear of what you are implying was lost; honor, valiance? Discretion is the better part of valor.

Again, I'm looking at it from his POV. he's the host, so it would seem that he gets the last word.... clearly, the last word(s) were "no problem."

I don't know who "the people around here" are but I never stated she should break off contact with him. I only said she shouldn't sleep alone with him at his house.

Then clearly the remark wasn't directed towards you... although being in separate rooms hardly qualifies as "sleeping alone with him," IMO.

Who exactly would have been injured in this case? Let me guess, the male ego of the host? Really, have males become that oversensitive these days? Even if he did make the suggestion for her to stay over so what? If it were me I'd applaud her response of "thanks but no thanks" because she more deeply considered the ramifications of her Christian witness even if I didn't. I respect women with personal integrity just as I do men.

Are you suggesting that by saying yes, her reputation is in danger but his somehow is not?

And here I too will say "thanks but no thanks". I think I'll stick to the Good Book and the Holy Spirit

As you wish, but the Holy Spirit has used more unlikely people than me in the past. You might want to consider the message more than the messenger in the future.

Ignorance literally means "without knowledge". So I was basically stating your thoughts and advice for me had their genesis or beginning without any true knowledge of who I really am, thus making them subjective.

if you mistakenly used a word with an unintended negative connotation, I apologize. And yet...

Yet here you go again now accusing me of contempt for you. Contempt for you means: "that I am arrogantly considering you to be a person beneath consideration, worthless, or deserving scorn". I did no such thing in my statement and I do not possess any contempt for you

"Hmm this is very interesting; an Agnostic advising a Christian on how to be a Christian?"

Just fyi -- you came off as quite dismissive; as you have demonstrated yourself to be quite knowledgeable and adept in the King's English, I assumed that this was no accident.

I shall assume better in the future, knowing that in turn, you will consider your words a little more carefully.

Introverted1293 · Jul 23, 2017

I don't see any problem with this myself. Of course, I'm moving in with a girl that I'm not married to because I see her as a sister, even though where we are not biologically related. And my mom a devout Christian has a problem with it.

Sammy-San · Jul 23, 2017

Introverted2017 said:
I don't see any problem with this myself. Of course, I'm moving in with a girl that I'm not married to because I see her as a sister, even though where we are not biologically related. And my mom a devout Christian has a problem with it.

Why We Make Love at Night

Most people make love when they go to bed, which is usually at night.1 "Sleeping with" someone has thus become a synonym for having sex.

dayhiker · Jul 24, 2017

John 1720 said:
You must realize that experiences differ cross culturally and even inter culturally. I can tell you a case of a Muslim man who at first was at first very interested in hearing more about Isa Mesih (Jesus Christ). He was invited over to hear more by a friend of ours. All was going well as the team and our host shared the Scriptures with him. Everyone was sitting cross legged on the floor in a circle speaking about prophesies concerning Christ when he asked, does your Scripture truly say this? One of the party opened his Arabic Bible to the text and then slid it across the floor to him, "See for yourself!" This offended the man and he arose and said, "We honor the Quran in my house by putting that book in the highest place. Why would I ever desire to believe in a book you have such little regard for by sliding it across the floor." He then abruptly left. An American Christian had put a cross cultural stumbling block in front of him because he neglected to weigh cultural perceptions. I can also tell you that among Muslims, who happen to be the largest sector of the unreached people for the Gospel of Christ, how you live your life speaks volumes to them. It would be the height of folly to ever put an obstacle to their faith like a team member sleeping over a single woman's house. When I am overseas we guys don't even visit a single woman's house to have chai for the same reason. Certainly I do not think the OP topic amounted to sin but I do think it is simply unwise to put a stumbling block in front of anyone who does not think culturally or inter-culturally the same way you do.

In Christ,
John 17:20

John, I feel you make my point. Yes there are cultures were nudity is offensive and I'd think Muslims might very well be one of those cultures. Indeed I'd advise anyone who were there to respect their culture. Here i American I've heard of Muslims being offended and thinking our women much be prostitutes because they are wearing shorts.
But so far I've not heard of any American being offended to the point that they were going to forsake their faith.
I would further wonder how real their relationship with Jesus was if seeing someone nude was enough for them to turn from Jesus. I'd love to understand what that person would be thinking.

I actually ran into a woman this weekend who was offended that growing up her family made her clutch the top of her robe to her neck to cross the 2 feet from the bathroom to her bedroom. Once getting grounded for some dress infraction. I wish now I'd thought ask her more, but sounded like she had some understanding that God was concern with her heart and not petty rules.

Dave-W · Jul 24, 2017

dayhiker said:
I would further wonder how real their relationship with Jesus was if seeing someone nude was enough for them to turn from Jesus. I'd love to understand what that person would be thinking.

Not turn from following the Lord, but falling into lust which is defined as a grave sin and to some, that means you have lost your salvation.

And that is just the "strong desire" part. If you do something to alleviate those intense feelings, you sin again.

John 1720 · Jul 24, 2017

dayhiker said:
John, I feel you make my point. Yes there are cultures were nudity is offensive and I'd think Muslims might very well be one of those cultures. Indeed I'd advise anyone who were there to respect their culture. Here i American I've heard of Muslims being offended and thinking our women much be prostitutes because they are wearing shorts.
But so far I've not heard of any American being offended to the point that they were going to forsake their faith.
I would further wonder how real their relationship with Jesus was if seeing someone nude was enough for them to turn from Jesus. I'd love to understand what that person would be thinking.

I actually ran into a woman this weekend who was offended that growing up her family made her clutch the top of her robe to her neck to cross the 2 feet from the bathroom to her bedroom. Once getting grounded for some dress infraction. I wish now I'd thought ask her more, but sounded like she had some understanding that God was concern with her heart and not petty rules.

While I don't believe in forced modesty I do hope we can all be cognizant that modesty is a favorable attribute for both women and men. Of course God is more concerned with our heart than petty rules and rules can be good or bad. That said what are the dynamics under which family create household rules. Having raised 4 daughters of our own I know we tried to create an environment of freedom while at the same time being cognizant of the fact that young daughters are not always aware of how a young man's thoughts can fly astray. I for one was the kind of father that made a point of getting to know the young men who dated them, letting them know how much I valued each of my daughters. I know they didn't always like that but that was my rule. I think we deceive ourselves if we are not aware of the battle of thoughts that permeate the world in which we live in. So up front integrity and clarity of communication will always be a big deal in my book with regard to inter-personal relationships.

If we as American Christians are only concerned with American values then I believe we have lost sight of the prize for which Christ died; for He died for every tribe, tongue and nation. I think we need to take Paul's advice and realize that in bearing the Name of Christ we are indeed ambassadors to all peoples. The admonishment is not designed so we become "people-pleasers" but that we can maximize the effect of the Gospel. We need to foster a reputation as wall breakers not wall makers and we can only do that by maintaining our integrity with as many people as we can.

If I know my intentions are godly but there are choices with regard to how I manifestly execute my actions, with respect to how they may be perceived, then, if I am wise, I will choose to do the most positive thing I can in the Name of Christ. I will always be willing to give up some the great freedom I have in Christ in order to remove barriers for a weaker brother or sister or stumbling blocks to belief for those not in Christ. Our prize and focus always has to be the love of God for all people. Just satisfying my own convenience because I have great freedom in Christ is a distant thought and small sacrifice for the love of God. Paul puts it more succinctly than I can:
1 Corinthians 8:19-23

For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win the more; and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law; to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ), that I might win those who are without law; to the weak I became as weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. Now this I do for the gospel’s sake, that I may be partaker of it with you.

In Christ, John 17:20

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Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner!

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I've already read the books you want burned.

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I've already read the books you want burned.

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