God's Sabbath rest is not a weekly seventh day rest

BobRyan · Jul 20, 2017

Doveaman said:
The entire old covenant that was based on the 10 commandments has been annulled. Hebrews 9 goes on to give us the details involved in the administration of the Levitical priesthood, which has been annulled:

“Now the first covenant had regulations for worship and also an earthly sanctuary…Behind the second curtain was a room called the Most Holy Place, which had the golden altar of incense and the gold-covered ark of the covenant. This ark contained the gold jar of manna, Aaron's staff that had budded, and the stone tablets of the covenant.” -- (Hebrews 9:1-4).
.

Nothing in that quote says it is no longer sin to worship false gods, or dishonor parents , or take God's name in vain.

And we all know it!!

No amount of spin-doctoring is going to change the fact - and we both know it to be true.

In fact even your own pro-sunday scholars admit to it.

We have Paul going out of his way to drag the TEN commandments into the discussion in Eph 6:2 - just to make it soooo obvious no Bible student can miss it.

Certainly your own pro-Sunday scholars did not miss that detail.

the same Law written on stone - is written on the tablets of the human heart - under the NEW Covenant.

BobRyan · Jul 20, 2017

Doveaman said:
Our understanding of the "commandments" of Christ must be established on the biblical premise that the 10 Commandments are the laws of the old covenant and the old covenant has been made obsolete. Therefore, Christ cannot be encouraging obedience to obsolete laws:

"He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone." -- (Deuteronomy 4:13).

"He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant — not of the letter...for the letter kills..the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone"-- (2 Corinthians 3:6-8)

"By calling this covenant 'new,' He has made the first one obsolete” -- (Hebrews 8:13).

That's the biblical premise (the 10 Commandment law in obsolete),

Christ in Matt 5 specifically refutes your bend and wrench of those texts at that point - saying that this was not the point of the Gospel of Christ. Not the Gospel He was preaching.

And as already noted even your own Pro-Sunday scholars refute that speculative doctoring in your interpretation above.

It just does not get any easier than this.

"What do we then make void the LAW by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31

listed · Jul 21, 2017

BobRyan said:
Nothing in that quote says it is no longer sin to worship false gods, or dishonor parents , or take God's name in vain.

We don't need to be told it's wrong to worship false gods or take God's name in vain.

listed · Jul 21, 2017

BobRyan said:
Christ in Matt 5 specifically refutes your bend and wrench of those texts at that point - saying that this was not the point of the Gospel of Christ. Not the Gospel He was preaching.

And as already noted even your own Pro-Sunday scholars refute that speculative doctoring in your interpretation above.

It just does not get any easier than this.

"What do we then make void the LAW by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31

doctoring?

Doveaman · Jul 21, 2017

1stcenturylady said:
Great post. I'm sorry if it lands on deaf ears.

Well, this thread has almost 1800 views so far, and I'm sure not all of them have deaf ears.

I'm not so much trying to persuade Bob, but to persuade others not to be persuaded by Bob.

The Sabbath was the sign of the Old Covenant in case you didn't know.

Yes, I'm aware.

"The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. It will be a sign between Me and the Israelites forever" -- (Exodus 31:16-17).

I use to be a Sabbath-day observer for many years, until I finally realize I'm not an Israelite.

By the way, do you know what the sign of our New Covenant is?

What I find interesting in the verses above is that the Jewish Sabbath was to be a lasting covenant and a sign that remained forever. I can see why the Jewish people today are still zealous for a Sabbath-day rest.

However, I think the Jewish Sabbath was fulfilled and transformed through faith in Christ, just as the Jewish sacrifices and circumcision were transformed.

So the Jewish sacrifices, circumcision, and Sabbath rest are all transformed and are no longer observed according to the letter, but according to the Spirit. Even the Jews themselves are no longer Jews:

"For a man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God." -- (Romans 2:28-29).

Since the Sabbath was to be a lasting covenant to the Jews, and a sign that remained forever, and since we are all now Jews through faith in Christ, I'm thinking that the sign of the new covenant is the eternal Sabbath-rest we now have in Christ.

So, in my opinion, our faith in Christ would be the sign of the new covenant.

“Come to Me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from Me…and you will find rest for your souls. ” -- (Matthew 11:28-29).

Doveaman · Jul 21, 2017

BobRyan said:
1. not in real life
2. Not in the Bible.
3. Your quote in that case "is of you" -- not the Bible.
4. Your own pro-Sunday scholars admit to this basic Bible fact.

Were we simply "not supposed to notice"???

I provided many scriptures to support my claims.

Let the viewers read and decide.

Thus it is "still a sin" to "take God's name in vain" - irrefutable.

I agree.

We respect God's name in obedience to the Spirit of the law, not the letter.

"He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant — not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills" -- (2 Corinthians 3:6-8).

Of course not "everyone" will point to these details as I just did - here is an example with someone agree with you.

Cool.

BobRyan said:
Another entirely false statement as Genesis 4 shows that the sin of murder - was in fact a "sin" long before the first Levitical priest set foot on the planet.

Again - this affirmation in the Bible of the TEN commandments is admitted to - even by your own pro-sunday scholars.

And even today - it is still " sin to take God's name in vain" just as it was sin to do that before the first Levitical priest and just as it remains a sin to do that -- to this very day.

The sin of murder existed in the world long before the 10 Commandment law was given: “Sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned — for before the law was given, sin was in the world.” -- (Romans 5:12-13).

The law was added to the world because of the sin that already existed in the world: “What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions” -- (Galatians 3:19).

The law was added so that the preexisting danger of sin might be revealed and exposed: “Through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners...The law was added so that the transgression might increase.” -- (Romans 5:19-20).

The law was added to empower the preexisting sin with the authority to convict us and condemn us: “Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died...For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death.” -- (Romans 7:9-11).

The law was made, not for the righteous, but for the sinners who existed in the world long before the law was given.: “We know that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and for sinners” -- (1 Timothy 1:9-10).

When scholars on BOTH sides admit to these incredibly obvious Bible details - well.. "it just does not GET any easier than that".

I will be sticking with the obvious on this one.

I don't pay too much attention to the so-called scholars. All Christians should be scholars to some extent: “Sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that is in you” -- (1 Peter 3:15).

BobRyan said:
Nothing in that quote says it is no longer sin to worship false gods, or dishonor parents , or take God's name in vain.

And we all know it!!

I agree.

But you are missing the point:

“Now the first covenant had regulations for worship...the gold-covered ark of the covenant, which contained the gold jar of manna, Aaron's staff that had budded, and the stone tablets of the covenant.” -- (Hebrews 9:1-4).

The point is this, the old covenant administration through the Levitical priesthood, which included the 10 Commandment law written on "stone tablets", has been changed since the old priesthood was changed:

“For when there is a change of the priesthood, there must also be a change of the law…For it is clear that our Lord descended from Judah…One who has become a priest, not according to the law of a fleshly commandment” -- (Hebrews 7:12-22).

This does not mean that we now worship false gods, or dishonor parents , or take God's name in vain. What it means is that the 10 Commandment law engraved on stone tablets is no long the standard by which our obedience is determined.

Our obedience is now based purely on God's love and God's love alone. We worship God only and respect His name and honor our parents, not in obedience to the letter of the law, but in obedience to the Spirit of God's love inspired in our hearts, because love is the fulfillment of the true intent of God's law:

“Whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself." Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.” -- (Romans 13:9-10).

No amount of spin-doctoring is going to change the fact - and we both know it to be true.

I agree.

In fact even your own pro-sunday scholars admit to it.

You keep repeating this to yourself.

We have Paul going out of his way to drag the TEN commandments into the discussion in Eph 6:2 - just to make it soooo obvious no Bible student can miss it.

Your response reminds me of what Peter said: "Our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him...His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort" -- (2 Peter 3:15-16).

Certainly your own pro-Sunday scholars did not miss that detail.

You are repeating yourself again.

the same Law written on stone - is written on the tablets of the human heart - under the NEW Covenant.

The law written on stone is the letter of the law. The letter of the law written somewhere else is still the letter of the law. The letter of the law does not magically become the Spirit of the law simply by shifting it to a new location.

"He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant — not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life."..."By calling this covenant 'new,' He has made the first one obsolete" -- (2 Corinthians 3:6-8, Hebrews 8:13).

The first covenant of the letter was not shifted to a new location in the heart, instead it has been made obsolete. We now live by the new covenant of the Spirit in obedience to God's love from the heart:

"For the entire law is fulfilled in a single command: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself'...For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit...But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law...Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit." -- (Galatians 5:14-25).

1stcenturylady · Jul 21, 2017

Doveaman said:
Well, this thread has almost 1800 views so far, and I'm sure not all of them have deaf ears.

I'm not so much trying to persuade Bob, but to persuade others not to be persuaded by Bob.
Yes, I'm aware.

"The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. It will be a sign between Me and the Israelites forever" -- (Exodus 31:16-17).

I use to be a Sabbath-day observer for many years, until I finally realize I'm not an Israelite.
What I find interesting in the verses above is that the Jewish Sabbath was to be a lasting covenant and a sign that remained forever. I can see why the Jewish people today are still zealous for a Sabbath-day rest.

However, I think the Jewish Sabbath was fulfilled and transformed through faith in Christ, just as the Jewish sacrifices and circumcision were transformed.

So the Jewish sacrifices, circumcision, and Sabbath rest are all transformed and are no longer observed according to the letter, but according to the Spirit. Even the Jews themselves are no longer Jews:

"For a man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God." -- (Romans 2:28-29).

Since the Sabbath was to be a lasting covenant to the Jews, and a sign that remained forever, and since we are all now Jews through faith in Christ, I'm thinking that the sign of the new covenant is the eternal Sabbath-rest we now have in Christ.

So our faith in Christ would be the sign of the new covenant.

“Come to Me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from Me…and you will find rest for your souls. ” -- (Matthew 11:28-29).

While you have a good point on the sign of the New Covenant, the Bible tells us what it is. And it too is based on Christ - His blood He shed for us. It is the Cup of the New Covenant. 1 Corinthians 11:25.

But you are right about Jesus being our Sabbath Rest. Even the Millennium of 1000 years represents it too.

Doveaman · Jul 21, 2017

1stcenturylady said:
While you have a good point on the sign of the New Covenant, the Bible tells us what it is. And it too is based on Christ - His blood He shed for us. It is the Cup of the New Covenant. 1 Corinthians 11:25.

Okay, here is your scripture:

"In the same way, after supper He took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me." -- (1 Corinthians 11:25).

Exodus 24 is my objection to your conclusion:

"Then he took the Book of the Covenant and read it to the people. They responded, 'We will do everything the LORD has said; we will obey.' Moses then took the blood, sprinkled it on the people and said, "This is the blood of the covenant that the LORD has made with you in accordance with all these words." -- (Exodus 24:7-8).

The Old Covenant was ratified by the blood of bulls, but the blood of bulls was not the sign of the Old Covenant.

The blood of bulls which ratified the Old Covenant represented the blood of Christ which now ratifies the New Covenant, and symbolized by the "cup".

Since the blood of bulls (which represented the blood of Christ) was not the sign of the Old Covenant, I therefore conclude that the blood of Christ is not the sign of the New Covenant.

I then stand by my previous post, that just as the Sabbath-rest by the works of the law was the sign of the Old Covenant, our Sabbath-rest through faith in Christ is now the sign of the New Covenant.

"The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. It will be a sign between Me and the Israelites forever" -- (Exodus 31:16-17).

The Sabbath-rest is an everlasting sign between God and His people Israel, and the Church of God is the everlasting Israel of God who now have the true and everlasting Sabbath-rest through faith in Christ:

"It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, 'It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.' In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring." -- (Romans 9:6-8).

The Church of God (the body of Christ) are the children of the promise through faith in Christ:

"Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: 'All nations will be blessed through you.' So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith." -- (Galatians 3:7-8).

BobRyan · Jul 21, 2017

Doveaman said:
Yes it does.
The laws regarding the Levitical priesthood includes the 10 commandments.

1. not in real life
2. Not in the Bible.
3. Your quote in that case "is of you" -- not the Bible.
4. Your own pro-Sunday scholars admit to this basic Bible fact.

Were we simply "not supposed to notice"???

Thus it is "still a sin" to "take God's name in vain" - irrefutable. and we all know it.

Doveaman said:
I provided many scriptures to support my claims.

Let the viewers read and decide.
I agree.

Sounds good to me.

Doveaman said:
We respect God's name in obedience to the Spirit of the law, not the letter.

Turns out - "God Spoke" and "Wrote" -- "do not take God's name in vain" ..

Decide how much of it you wish to ignore - you have free will.

But if your argument is that the Spirit of the Law demands obedience to the letter and MORE so as we see Christ saying in Matt 5. Then fine. What is all this anti-Ten Commandments about in that case?

BobRyan · Jul 21, 2017

Doveaman said:
The Sabbath-rest is an everlasting sign between God and His people Israel,

The "NEW Covenant" is made with "The House of Israel and the House of Judah"... Jer 31:31-33

You can choose to be under that - or not. I choose to accept it.

And yes "Israel was not supposed to be taking God's name in vain" --

Essentially Bible details so obvious in support of God's TEN Commandments that even the majority of your own pro-Sunday scholars admit to it.

When BOTH sides admit to a Bible detail -- well it is truly certifiably "obvious" at that point.

and the Church of God is the everlasting Israel who now have the everlasting Sabbath-rest through faith in Christ:

Moses and Elijah stand WITH CHRIST in Matt 17 - before the cross. Keeping God's Sabbath commandment never did argue for war against Christ or the Gospel.

In the OT "They all drank from the same Spiritual Rock - and that Rock was CHRIST" 1 Cor 10.

There is no war between Christ and His Ten Commandments.

Doveaman · Jul 21, 2017

BobRyan said:
But if your argument is that the Spirit of the Law demands obedience to the letter and MORE so as we see Christ saying in Matt 5. Then fine.

Nope, that is not my argument at all.

My argument is that God's eternal law is the law that God Himself lived by from eternity and continues to live by in us today: “And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love, and whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him...because in this world we are like Him.” -- (1 John 4:16-17).

God is love, and in this world we live just as God lives; we rely on God's love and we live by God's love, period.

What is all this anti-Ten Commandments about in that case?

Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are the 10 Commandments God’s eternal law?
Did the 10 Commandments exists from eternity before the universe was created?
Are the 10 Commandments the laws that God Himself lived by when only the Father and Son existed?
What purpose was there for a seventh-day law in an eternity where days did not exists?
What purpose was there for a law against adultery in an eternity where adultery was impossible?
What purpose was there for a law against stealing in an eternity where everything belonged to God?
Did God need a law against stealing to prevent Himself from stealing from Himself?
Explain to me your understanding of these things.

And while you’re at it, don’t forget this question which you keep avoiding:

“For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts” -- (Romans 2:14-15).

If, as Paul said, the Gentiles never had the letter of the law, then how are they able to fulfill the requirements of the law?

And please don’t tell me Paul is talking about scripture, because he is clearly not.
The rest of Romans 2 clearly shows that Paul is talking about the letter of the law:

"If you call yourself a Jew; if you rely on the law and brag about your relationship to God...You who preach against stealing, do you steal? You who say that people should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery?…The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you who, even though you have the written letter and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law.” -- (Romans 2:21-29).

Again, Paul is showing that the requirements of the law can be obeyed even though we do not have the written letter of the law.

So the question above still remains unanswered by you.

How are Gentiles able to obey the requirements of the law, if, as Paul said, they never had the letter of the law?

1stcenturylady · Jul 21, 2017

Doveaman said:
Okay, here is your scripture:

"In the same way, after supper He took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me." -- (1 Corinthians 11:25).

Exodus 24 is my objection to your conclusion:

"Then he took the Book of the Covenant and read it to the people. They responded, 'We will do everything the LORD has said; we will obey.' Moses then took the blood, sprinkled it on the people and said, "This is the blood of the covenant that the LORD has made with you in accordance with all these words." -- (Exodus 24:7-8).

The Old Covenant was ratified by the blood of bulls, but the blood of bulls was not the sign of the Old Covenant.

The blood of bulls which ratified the Old Covenant represented the blood of Christ which now ratifies the New Covenant, and symbolized by the "cup".

Since the blood of bulls (which represented the blood of Christ) was not the sign of the Old Covenant, I therefore conclude that the blood of Christ is not the sign of the New Covenant.

I then stand by my previous post, that just as the Sabbath-rest by the works of the law was the sign of the Old Covenant, our Sabbath-rest through faith in Christ is now the sign of the New Covenant.

"The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. It will be a sign between Me and the Israelites forever" -- (Exodus 31:16-17).

The Sabbath-rest is an everlasting sign between God and His people Israel, and the Church of God is the everlasting Israel of God, who now have the true and everlasting Sabbath-rest through faith in Christ:

"It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, 'It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.' In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring." -- (Romans 9:6-8).

The Church of God (the body of Christ) are the children of the promise through faith in Christ:

"Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: 'All nations will be blessed through you.' So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith." -- (Galatians 3:7-8).

The cup of the New Covenant represents the blood of Jesus, not of bulls and goats. They were just a foreshadow, but Jesus blood is what cleansed us. I didn't make up the phrase, Cup of the New Covenant. Why didn't he also say the bread of the New Covenant? The blood of Jesus is what our Covenant is based on.

BobRyan · Jul 21, 2017

Doveaman said:
We respect God's name in obedience to the Spirit of the law, not the letter.

Turns out - "God Spoke" and "Wrote" -- "do not take God's name in vain" ..

Decide how much of it you wish to ignore - you have free will.

But if your argument is that the Spirit of the Law demands obedience to the letter and MORE so as we see Christ saying in Matt 5. Then fine. What is all this anti-Ten Commandments about in that case?

Doveaman said:
Nope, that is not my argument at all.

Ok - well I wanted to be sure to try and give you the benefit of the doubt "just in case" you were trying to join in harmony with Christ's teaching Matt 5.

But since you clearly say "no" ... well... you have free will.

Doveaman said:
My argument is that God's eternal law is the law that God Himself lived by from eternity and continues to live by in us today:

And do you find that God's Word is at war with 'Himself'?? Spoken Word? Written Word??

As you may well know - the majority of even pro-Sunday scholars don't go down that road.

Doveaman said:
“And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love, and whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him...because in this world we are like Him.”

Doveaman said:
-- (1 John 4:16-17).

"THIS IS the LOVE of God - that we KEEP His Commandments" 1 John 5:2-3

are the 10 Commandments God’s eternal law?

Yes. As even your own pro-Sunday scholars admit.

And it is in the TEN Commandents that the 5th Commandent "is the FIRST commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2

It is from the TEN Commandments that James quotes ... James 2.

It is from the TEN Commandments that Paul quotes in Romans 7.

Is is from the TEN Commandments that Christ quotes in Matt 19 when He says "KEEP the Commandments" and when asked "WHICH ones.." His answer is from the TEN Commandments.

When BOTH sides see the same glaringly obvious Bible detail... as in the case of your own pro-Sunday scholars... well ... "it just does not GET any easier than that".

in Christ,

Bob

1stcenturylady · Jul 22, 2017

BobRyan said:
"THIS IS the LOVE of God - that we KEEP His Commandments" 1 John 5:2-3

And what ARE His Commandments? John has already told us previously in the same epistle. Why quote a scripture that doesn't mean what you think it means? Why not find out what the author meant, and don't lean on Old Covenant understanding?

1 John 3:
18 My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth. 19 And by this we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him. 20 For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things. 21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave use commandment.

24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

Those who have all of the fruit of the Spirit and walk in the Spirit are not under the law of sin and death. They are under the law of the Spirit of life in Christ, which has freed me from the law of sin and death.

A Christian who has the Holy Spirit indwelling them and abides in Jesus and has developed all the fruit of the Spirit DOES NOT SIN. The law of sin and death is for those who believe in God but are still slaves to their flesh and need laws to live by because they do not have the Holy Spirit. To them sin is the transgression of the law. But to a mature Christian we walk in the newness of life.

I was 23 when I learned about grace, unmerited favor, even though the teaching wasn't perfect, and left the SDA church who only taught law. Never had one prayer answered, and began to even wonder if God existed. I was almost 30 when I was filled with the Spirit, heard God's voice, knew for certain that God did indeed exist, and every prayer after that was granted. I'll be 70 on 7/24/17 (on Monday), and have grown out of the flesh and disobedience through suffering. That period of my life is past, and God is my faithful husband. Now I know the true meaning of grace. It is the power of God indwelling me to walk in His perfect will. I rest in my trust in Him, the true Sabbath rest. I have entered His rest and will live forever. I'm ready to go home, but I think He still has work for me to do. I finished one book, and am writing two more. I want to finish them soon. But in the meantime, I'll teach my students to continue the work.

Bob, even though you do teach law, in my opinion it is better than perverted grace that many churches teach. To them it is still unmerited favor which is only that Jesus died for them while they were still sinners. That is unmerited favor. But the power of the Holy Spirit has turned grace into it's other meaning- POWER to walk in righteousness. That's what would really love for you to experience.

I want you to see how walking in the Spirit and having the fruit of the Spirit is better than the same laws with no power to keep them:

Thou shalt not kill? Love prevents that in your new nature. Thou shalt not steal? Self-control prevents that in your new nature. Thou shalt not commit adultery? Faithfulness prevents that in your new nature. Thou shalt not covet? Peace and contentment prevents that in your new nature. Thou shalt not lie? Kindness prevents that in your new nature. Honor your parents? Longsuffering and gentleness takes care of them for as long as they live. Believing in the name of Jesus Christ? Joy unspeakable!

Same laws, but now with the power to walk in the true righteousness before God. Not of the letter, but of the Spirit.

BobRyan · Jul 22, 2017

1stcenturylady said:
And what ARE His Commandments? John has already told us previously in the same epistle. Why quote a scripture that doesn't mean what you think it means? Why not find out what the author meant, and don't lean on Old Covenant understanding?

1 John 3:
18 My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth. 19 And by this we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him. 20 For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things. 21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave use commandment.

24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

Jesus lists a few of them in Matt 19 - many of which not in your quote.

Still -- as we all know... it is a sin to take God's name in vain.. even though this too is not in your quote.

Doveaman · Jul 22, 2017

BobRyan said:
And do you find that God's Word is at war with 'Himself'??

Nope, but you do.

You are the one who is suggesting that the law against stealing existed from eternity, as if God needed a law against stealing to prevent Himself from stealing from Himself.

Yes. As even your own pro-Sunday scholars admit.

And it is in the TEN Commandents that the 5th Commandent "is the FIRST commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2

It is from the TEN Commandments that James quotes ... James 2.

It is from the TEN Commandments that Paul quotes in Romans 7.

Is is from the TEN Commandments that Christ quotes in Matt 19 when He says "KEEP the Commandments" and when asked "WHICH ones.." His answer is from the TEN Commandments.

When BOTH sides see the same glaringly obvious Bible detail... as in the case of your own pro-Sunday scholars... well ... "it just does not GET any easier than that".

in Christ,

Bob

You clearly don't know what God's eternal law is.

God's eternal law is the law that existed from eternity, the law that existed before time began, the law the Father and Son lived by before the universe was formed.

I am fully convinced that God did not live by the law of 10 Commandment in eternity, before time began, when only the Father and Son existed.

If you were able to answer the question I posted, which you keep avoiding, perhaps then you will know what God's eternal law is:

“For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts...The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you who, even though you have the written letter and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law.” -- (Romans 2:14-29).

If, as Paul said, the Gentiles never had the letter of the law, then how are they able to fulfill the requirements of the law?

Doveaman · Jul 22, 2017

1stcenturylady said:
The cup of the New Covenant represents the blood of Jesus, not of bulls and goats.

But the blood of bulls and goats represented the blood of Christ.

They were just a foreshadow

That’s correct, and a shadow is a reflection that mimics the reality.

but Jesus blood is what cleansed us. I didn't make up the phrase, Cup of the New Covenant. Why didn't he also say the bread of the New Covenant?

Because the New Covenant was not ratified by bread

, it was ratified by blood represented by the “cup”.

The blood of Jesus is what our Covenant is based on.

I agree the New Covenant is established on the blood of Christ. But its Old Covenant shadow was established on the blood of bulls.

What I mean is this:

"Moses then took the blood, sprinkled it on the people and said, "This is the blood of the covenant that the LORD has made with you in accordance with all these words." -- (Exodus 24:7-8).

The Old Covenant, with its rituals and laws, and even its people, was a physical pattern of the New Covenant established in Christ:

“For Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; He entered heaven itself…For the law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming — not the realities themselves.” -- (Hebrews 8, 9, 10).

The Old Covenant with its physical rituals and laws was a copy and shadow of the realities fulfilled in the New Covenant through Christ. It’s called a shadow because it’s a reflection that mimics the realities found in Christ, just as our human shadow is a reflection that mimics the reality of our bodily movements.

This takes us back to 1 Corinthians 11:

"In the same way, after supper He took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me." -- (1 Corinthians 11:25).

The blood of bulls which ratified the Old Covenant was a copy and shadow that mimicked the blood of Christ which now ratifies the New Covenant. The blood of bulls was a reflecting shadow that mimicked the blood of Christ, just as animal sacrifice was a reflecting shadow that mimicked the sacrifice of Christ.

This means that if the blood of Christ is the sign of the New Covenant, the blood of bulls would, therefore, have been the sign of the Old Covenant, because the blood of bulls was the reflecting shadow that mimicked the blood of Christ. But we know that the blood of bulls was not the sign of the Old Covenant.

The shadow will always mimic the realty that it reflects, just as our human shadow will always mimic the reality of our bodily movements. I therefore conclude that the blood of Christ is not the sign of the New Covenant, because its reflecting shadow (the blood of bulls) was not the sign of the Old Covenant.

This is the sign of the Old Covenant:

"The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. It will be a sign between Me and the Israelites forever" -- (Exodus 31:16-17).

The Sabbath-rest was the sign of the Old Covenant and was also a shadow reflecting the reality now fulfilled in Christ. Therefore our Sabbath-rest in Christ is the sign of the New Covenant, just as its reflecting shadow was the sign of the Old Covenant.

God said the Sabbath was to be a sign between Him and Israel “forever”. So either God’s word has failed or the Sabbath still remains a sign “forever”.

The scriptures tell us that God’s word did not fail, and they tell us why God’s word did not fail:

"It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children….In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children…Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham…So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith " -- (Romans 9:6-8, Galatians 3:7-18).

God’s word did not fail because the Sabbath as a sign under the Old Covenant still remains forever through its fulfillment in Christ. The Sabbath still remains forever as a sign between God and the descendants of Abraham, who are now the spiritual Israel of God (the Church).

“There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own works, just as God did from His.” -- (Hebrews 4:1-10).

The sign of the New Covenant is our Sabbath-rest in Christ from our fleshly works of human nature, just as God’s Sabbath-rest was from His physical works of creation.

“Come to Me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from Me…and you will find rest for your souls. ” -- (Matthew 11:28-29).

1stcenturylady · Jul 22, 2017

BobRyan said:
Jesus lists a few of them in Matt 19 - many of which not in your quote.

Still -- as we all know... it is a sin to take God's name in vain.. even though this too is not in your quote.

What is the main commandment Jesus focused on?

1stcenturylady · Jul 22, 2017

Doveaman said:
But the blood of bulls and goats represented the blood of Christ.
That’s correct, and a shadow is a reflection that mimics the reality.
Because the New Covenant was not ratified by bread , it was ratified by blood represented by the “cup”.
I agree the New Covenant is established on the blood of Christ. But its Old Covenant shadow was established on the blood of bulls.

What I mean is this:

"Moses then took the blood, sprinkled it on the people and said, "This is the blood of the covenant that the LORD has made with you in accordance with all these words." -- (Exodus 24:7-8).

The Old Covenant, with its rituals and laws, and even its people, was a physical pattern of the New Covenant established in Christ:

“For Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; He entered heaven itself…For the law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming — not the realities themselves.” -- (Hebrews 8, 9, 10).

The Old Covenant with its physical rituals and laws was a copy and shadow of the realities fulfilled in the New Covenant through Christ. It’s called a shadow because it’s a reflection that mimics the realities found in Christ, just as our human shadow is a reflection that mimics the reality of our bodily movements.

This takes us back to 1 Corinthians 11:

"In the same way, after supper He took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me." -- (1 Corinthians 11:25).

The blood of bulls which ratified the Old Covenant was a copy and shadow that mimicked the blood of Christ which now ratifies the New Covenant. The blood of bulls was a reflecting shadow that mimicked the blood of Christ, just as animal sacrifice was a reflecting shadow that mimicked the sacrifice of Christ.

This means that if the blood of Christ is the sign of the New Covenant, the blood of bulls would, therefore, have been the sign of the Old Covenant, because the blood of bulls was the reflecting shadow that mimicked the blood of Christ. But we know that the blood of bulls was not the sign of the Old Covenant.

The shadow will always mimic the realty that it reflects, just as our human shadow will always mimic the reality of our bodily movements. I therefore conclude that the blood of Christ is not the sign of the New Covenant, because its reflecting shadow (the blood of bulls) was not the sign of the Old Covenant.

This is the sign of the Old Covenant:

"The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. It will be a sign between Me and the Israelites forever" -- (Exodus 31:16-17).

The Sabbath-rest was the sign of the Old Covenant and was also a shadow reflecting the reality now fulfilled in Christ. Therefore our Sabbath-rest in Christ is the sign of the New Covenant, just as its reflecting shadow was the sign of the Old Covenant.

God said the Sabbath was to be a sign between Him and Israel “forever”. So either God’s word has failed or the Sabbath still remains a sign “forever”.

The scriptures tell us that God’s word did not fail, and they tell us why God’s word did not fail:

"It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children….In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children…Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham…So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith " -- (Romans 9:6-8, Galatians 3:7-18).

God’s word did not fail because the Sabbath as a sign under the Old Covenant still remains forever through its fulfillment in Christ. The Sabbath still remains forever as a sign between God and the descendants of Abraham, who are now the spiritual Israel of God (the Church).

“There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own works, just as God did from His.” -- (Hebrews 4:1-10).

The sign of the New Covenant is our Sabbath-rest in Christ from our fleshly works of human nature, just as God’s Sabbath-rest was from His physical works of creation.

“Come to Me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from Me…and you will find rest for your souls. ” -- (Matthew 11:28-29).

I don't know why you are arguing with me. We are both saying the same thing, that the New Covenant is based on the blood of Jesus. It's symbol and sign is the "cup."

Doveaman · Jul 22, 2017

1stcenturylady said:
I don't know why you are arguing with me. We are both saying the same thing, that the New Covenant is based on the blood of Jesus. It's symbol and sign is the "cup."

I'm not arguing. I'm explaining.

God's Sabbath rest is not a weekly seventh day rest

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