Missing the Point

dreadnought

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Thanks for clarifying. We don't know each other so I didn't catch the tone properly, my apologies. I agree although until we have been perfected, "not sinning" is a challenge... one that can be met, but one that is often fallen short of. Not making excuses for anything, just being real... if we haven't been perfected, by definition we are imperfect until that day comes.

Blessings.
Ken
I keep thinking we can, with the Lord's help, achieve perfection in this life. Thank you.
 
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Ken Rank

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I keep thinking we can, with the Lord's help, achieve perfection in this life. Thank you.
How about I meet you half way... :) .... I think we strive for perfection, and I think if we fully submit to Him as Lord and allow His Spirit to guide and lead that we can even walk without sinning. But... if we fail, and we might, we have an advocate in Yeshua.
 
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dreadnought

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How about I meet you half way... :) .... I think we strive for perfection, and I think if we fully submit to Him as Lord and allow His Spirit to guide and lead that we can even walk without sinning. But... if we fail, and we might, we have an advocate in Yeshua.
Well, if we fail, we repent and the Lord forgives us. Maybe we are saying the same thing in different ways.
 
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Ken Rank

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Well, if we fail, we repent and the Lord forgives us. Maybe we are saying the same thing in different ways.
We are... if he acts as an advocate for us, then when we fail there is forgiveness.

After having slept on this though, I think we will agree to disagree in that, I am going to back off my last post. I do believe we can keep from sinning (breaking the law - 1 John 3:4) in the flesh... but the heart is another matter. Meaning, Yeshua taught us that God seeks a pure heart and that the law is really about the heart condition of man. For example... the commandment says "do not murder" and we certainly can refrain from that. But Yeshua revealed the depth of the letter, the spirit or intent behind the letter by saying, "he that hates his brother has killed him already." Now he did the same teaching with adultery. Surely we can refrain from engaging in adultery but the intent or spirit of the letter reveals that to even lust in the heart for another is adultery. So, have we not ever hated? Have we taken to long a look at a member of the opposite sex? Have we thought, "man I really want a ____ like my neighbor has!"? We can do all things through Christ who strengthens us but there is a reason why the Law is being taken from stone and to the heart by God. We can't keep it there in our own and as part of the new covenant He is going to make that a permanent thing. Until then... we can probably keep from bearing false witness... but it is unlikely we will NEVER think of another in a manner contrary to their true character which would be the spirit of or intent of not bearing false witness.
 
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Aseyesee

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From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." Matt 4:17 RSV

I think most people miss the point of what Jesus is saying here. I believe he’s telling us that heaven comes to us the moment we repent of our sin.

The kingdom that is at hand is much like being born again, and seeing; (in its season), you may turn from something, but never enter into what you turn to.
 
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dreadnought

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We are... if he acts as an advocate for us, then when we fail there is forgiveness.

After having slept on this though, I think we will agree to disagree in that, I am going to back off my last post. I do believe we can keep from sinning (breaking the law - 1 John 3:4) in the flesh... but the heart is another matter. Meaning, Yeshua taught us that God seeks a pure heart and that the law is really about the heart condition of man. For example... the commandment says "do not murder" and we certainly can refrain from that. But Yeshua revealed the depth of the letter, the spirit or intent behind the letter by saying, "he that hates his brother has killed him already." Now he did the same teaching with adultery. Surely we can refrain from engaging in adultery but the intent or spirit of the letter reveals that to even lust in the heart for another is adultery. So, have we not ever hated? Have we taken to long a look at a member of the opposite sex? Have we thought, "man I really want a ____ like my neighbor has!"? We can do all things through Christ who strengthens us but there is a reason why the Law is being taken from stone and to the heart by God. We can't keep it there in our own and as part of the new covenant He is going to make that a permanent thing. Until then... we can probably keep from bearing false witness... but it is unlikely we will NEVER think of another in a manner contrary to their true character which would be the spirit of or intent of not bearing false witness.
If we can stop sinning, and with the Lord's help we can, we can stop thinking evil thoughts.
 
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dreadnought

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The kingdom that is at hand is much like being born again, and seeing; (in its season), you may turn from something, but never enter into what you turn to.
If we repent of our sin and find the gate to heaven open to us, we really have no choice but to enter. Where else would we go?
 
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Aseyesee

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If we repent of our sin and find the gate to heaven open to us, we really have no choice but to enter. Where else would we go?

Born again only affords you to see, not to enter into what you see; but you are right we have no choice.
 
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Ken Rank

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If we can stop sinning, and with the Lord's help we can, we can stop thinking evil thoughts.
I don't necessarily agree. We tend to view messiah's work as being just for sin but there are many facets to his work. One of things his work does is allow for God to circumcise our hearts... a prophecy first mentioned in Deut. 30:1-6. I know it is a popular teaching that has this as an event that has happened, but it hasn't. When we go to Jer. 31:31-34 (and Heb. 8:8-11) we find that when the law is written on the mind and heart we will no longer have to teach our neighbor because all will know the Lord. Well, all do not know the Lord and we still need to teach... therefore, the work isn't done.

When the law is written on our hearts... probably coded in our DNA, we will be incapable of sinning, we will be perfected. But we are not perfected yet. And if you think that no sinful thought can pass through your mind than I think, respectfully, you are setting yourself up for failure. When the next car cuts you off, or when something else very negative happens... do you really think you are currently unable to respond in a manner that does not reflect the Lord we serve? That is why He is going to write the law on our hearts, so we can't think or do it... the whole temptation will be gone.
 
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dreadnought

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Born again only affords you to see, not to enter into what you see; but you are right we have no choice.
You are where you are. If you repent and find yourself in heaven, I doubt you'll complain.
 
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dreadnought

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I don't necessarily agree. We tend to view messiah's work as being just for sin but there are many facets to his work. One of things his work does is allow for God to circumcise our hearts... a prophecy first mentioned in Deut. 30:1-6. I know it is a popular teaching that has this as an event that has happened, but it hasn't. When we go to Jer. 31:31-34 (and Heb. 8:8-11) we find that when the law is written on the mind and heart we will no longer have to teach our neighbor because all will know the Lord. Well, all do not know the Lord and we still need to teach... therefore, the work isn't done.

When the law is written on our hearts... probably coded in our DNA, we will be incapable of sinning, we will be perfected. But we are not perfected yet. And if you think that no sinful thought can pass through your mind than I think, respectfully, you are setting yourself up for failure. When the next car cuts you off, or when something else very negative happens... do you really think you are currently unable to respond in a manner that does not reflect the Lord we serve? That is why He is going to write the law on our hearts, so we can't think or do it... the whole temptation will be gone.
? Of course we can stop thinking evil thoughts.
 
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Ken Rank said in post #89:

When we go to Jer. 31:31-34 (and Heb. 8:8-11) we find that when the law is written on the mind and heart we will no longer have to teach our neighbor because all will know the Lord. Well, all do not know the Lord and we still need to teach... therefore, the work isn't done.

It is, and it isn't.

Regarding "it is", note that the New Covenant of Jeremiah 31:31-34 is already fulfilled, even though the prior, Millennial prophecy of Jeremiah 31:1-14,16-25 (Jeremiah 31:15 was fulfilled in the 1st century AD: Matthew 2:17-18) and the other Millennial prophecies haven't yet been fulfilled. For the making of the New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31,33) was fulfilled at Jesus Christ's crucifixion (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 9:15-17), just as the New Covenant being made with the houses of Israel and Judah (Jeremiah 31:31,33) has been fulfilled (Acts 2:5,36-41, Romans 11:1,17,24). And the New Covenant being not according to the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Jeremiah 31:32) has been fulfilled (Hebrews 7:18-19, Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17). And the New Covenant law of Jesus being written on the hearts of Jewish and Gentile Christians (Jeremiah 31:33) has been fulfilled (Romans 6:17, Ephesians 6:6, Galatians 6:2). And "they shall teach no more every man his neighbour" (Jeremiah 31:34) has been fulfilled. For:

1 John 2:27 . . . the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Also, "they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them" (Jeremiah 31:34) has been fulfilled. For:

1 John 2:13 I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.

Also, "I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jeremiah 31:34) has been fulfilled (1 John 2:12).

Ken Rank said in post #89:

When the law is written on our hearts... probably coded in our DNA, we will be incapable of sinning, we will be perfected. But we are not perfected yet.

We are, and we aren't:

Philippians 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect [teleioo: G5048]: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15 ¶Let us therefore, as many as be perfect [teleios: G5046], be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
 
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dreadnought said in post #91:

? Of course we can stop thinking evil thoughts.

That's right, by God's miraculous help:

2 Corinthians 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ . . .

Someone once asked if this refers to lies which Satan feeds into our minds. The answer is our spiritual warfare against Satan and his fallen angels and demons (2 Corinthians 10:5, Ephesians 6:12) can indeed involve our thoughts.

For regarding Satan feeding lies into our minds, he certainly does that. But he usually feeds just images into our minds rather than lies expressed in words. For example, if he wants to tempt us to commit a sinful act, instead of whispering into our minds the words: "Do that act; won't it feel good to do that act", he will usually just place an image of the sinful act in our minds and then sit back and see how we react to it. If we hold onto the sinful image, which is an idol (1 John 5:21), and have desire for it, and let it begin to inspire our own lust within us, then Satan doesn't have to do anything else: Our own lust will then entice us into committing the sinful act (James 1:14-15).

But if we immediately cast down the sinful image, the idol, in our imagination, and bring into captivity every thought to the obedience of Jesus Christ (2 Corinthians 10:5), then we immediately cut off Satan's power of temptation at its root, which is images, idolatry. We mustn't give ourselves any time to gaze on his images, his idols, and then desire them, until we become driven by our own lust to act on them.

But someone could say, "Yeah, right. Easier said then done. You have no idea of the power of the sinful images which Satan and his demons feed into my mind. It's a constant, continual barrage until I give in. If I try to fight it, I can't do anything else: It takes all my mental power just trying to beat down the sinful images in my mind, and the constant craving for the sinful act which they engender within me. My trying to fight back against the temptation just wears me out. I eventually become totally helpless before it. It always wins in the end. I am like its slave. It cracks the whip and I obey. Every. Single. Time".

If this is the case with someone, then they truly are a slave to their sin. They must remember these words of our Lord Jesus Christ:

John 8:34 . . . Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

When we're barraged with temptation, we need to think: "Free. I am free. Jesus has made me free". And we need to pray: "Lord Jesus, free me from this sin, this idolatry, this temptation, this lust, these sinful images in my mind, that I may no longer be a slave to sin". And Jesus can then free us from them. They can cease. The struggle can melt away. And we can then serve Him by performing some righteous act instead of the sin (Romans 6:18).

So we can only win against Satan and his demons if we take constant control of our sinful thoughts and bring them all immediately to Jesus (2 Corinthians 10:5), and bring Jesus into all our thoughts (Psalms 10:4, KJV). He can then set us free from our sinful thoughts (John 8:34-36) and strengthen our righteous thoughts (Romans 6:18). He is the only one who can save us from our sins (1 John 3:5-10).
 
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Ken Rank

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? Of course we can stop thinking evil thoughts.
You have not been perfected yet which means by definition you are currently imperfect. Yes we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us but there is also a reason that God HAS TO write the Law on our mind and hearts Himself... we are not able to. At Sinai God commanded Israel to keep the Law on their hearts and they couldn't... so, as part of the new covenant, He will do it for us. The reason is... we can't control our thoughts all the time.

This is why Yeshua revealed the depth of the spirit of the commandments. He said if you hate your brother you have already committed murder. He said if you look in lust at a woman you have already committed adultery in your heart. The spirit of the law is HARDER then just the letter alone because it takes into consideration the INTENT of the heart which is IMPERFECT. When He writes the law in FULL on the mind and heart, there will never be an evil thought, but until then... we are capable.
 
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Ken Rank

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It is, and it isn't.

Regarding "it is", note that the New Covenant of Jeremiah 31:31-34 is already fulfilled, even though the prior, Millennial prophecy of Jeremiah 31:1-14,16-25 (Jeremiah 31:15 was fulfilled in the 1st century AD: Matthew 2:17-18) and the other Millennial prophecies haven't yet been fulfilled. For the making of the New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31,33) was fulfilled at Jesus Christ's crucifixion (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 9:15-17), just as the New Covenant being made with the houses of Israel and Judah (Jeremiah 31:31,33) has been fulfilled (Acts 2:5,36-41, Romans 11:1,17,24). And the New Covenant being not according to the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Jeremiah 31:32) has been fulfilled (Hebrews 7:18-19, Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17). And the New Covenant law of Jesus being written on the hearts of Jewish and Gentile Christians (Jeremiah 31:33) has been fulfilled (Romans 6:17, Ephesians 6:6, Galatians 6:2). And "they shall teach no more every man his neighbour" (Jeremiah 31:34) has been fulfilled. For:

1 John 2:27 . . . the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Also, "they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them" (Jeremiah 31:34) has been fulfilled. For:

1 John 2:13 I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.

Also, "I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jeremiah 31:34) has been fulfilled (1 John 2:12).



We are, and we aren't:

Philippians 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect [teleioo: G5048]: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15 ¶Let us therefore, as many as be perfect [teleios: G5046], be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
I agree and don't agree. :) The mark of the NC is the law on the mind and heart... that is part of the perfecting process and brother, we have not been perfected yet. We still die, decay, get disease and are exposed to all manner of unrighteousness all around us. The work is not done... but I would agree that it has begun. When we come in faith believing I think God does begin that work but it isn't completed yet and won't be until he "comes in the clouds " and "we are changed."

Shalom.
 
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dreadnought

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You have not been perfected yet which means by definition you are currently imperfect. Yes we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us but there is also a reason that God HAS TO write the Law on our mind and hearts Himself... we are not able to. At Sinai God commanded Israel to keep the Law on their hearts and they couldn't... so, as part of the new covenant, He will do it for us. The reason is... we can't control our thoughts all the time.

This is why Yeshua revealed the depth of the spirit of the commandments. He said if you hate your brother you have already committed murder. He said if you look in lust at a woman you have already committed adultery in your heart. The spirit of the law is HARDER then just the letter alone because it takes into consideration the INTENT of the heart which is IMPERFECT. When He writes the law in FULL on the mind and heart, there will never be an evil thought, but until then... we are capable.
True, the Lord has to show us the way, but once he's done that, I think we are capable of doing his will, which includes resisting the temptation to think evil thoughts. I'm not suggesting it's easy but I certainly don't think it's impossible.
 
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