Praying to the saints/Asking them to pray for us?

Major1 said:

You are welcome to do as you wish. That is not what is in view here.

What I am saying is that there are no Bible verses contained in the 66 books of the canon of Scriptures which direct the living to ask the dead to pray for them or vice averse.

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You did not answer my question... it's a pretty straightforward question. I'll ask it again:
Is praying for one another a Biblical requirement essential to the faith?
Yes or no.

My position is that Scripture instructs the church, the Body of Christ, to pray for one another. Hopefully you agree.
The question then becomes, where in scripture can you point to that teaches physical death separates the members of Christ's Body, the Church, from one another?

Praying for the dead is not a biblical concept. Our prayers have no bearing on someone once he or she has died. The reality is that, at the point of death, one’s eternal destiny is confirmed. Either he is saved through faith in Christ and is in heaven where he is experiencing rest and joy in God’s presence, or he is in torment in hell.

No one should ever believe that someone may be able to pray for him, thereby effecting some kind of favorable outcome, after he has died. The Bible teaches that the eternal state of mankind is determined by our actions during our lives on earth.

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The rest of your post is mostly a Straw Man, and Not pertinent to this discussion, but I will ask you to address a one point:

Either he is saved through faith in Christ and is in heaven where he is experiencing rest and joy in God’s presence, or he is in torment in hell.

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Only AFTER the GWT Judgement would this be true.
Are you asserting the GWT Judgment is past?

There is really no need to debate or argue this with me. You are welcome to do as you choose to do but all you have to do to convince me of YOUR opinion and YOUR choice is to post the Bible Scriptures from any of the 66 canonized Scriptures which tell us to pray for the dead.

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Again, I have demonstrated that Scripture indeed exhorts the members of the Church to pray for one another.
Your task is now to post the Bible Scriptures from any of the 66 canonized Scriptures which tell us that physical death separates the Members of Christ's Body, the Church, from one another, especially in light of this comment of yours:

Jesus and Luke believed both in a conscious life immediately after death (cf. 16:19-31; 23:39-43)

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JoeP222w said:

Asking living saints to pray for us is a good thing. Asking dead saints to pray for us is necromancy and an abomination.

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DEAD Saints is an oxymoron:

Matthew 22:32
32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Mark 12:27
27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. You are therefore greatly mistaken.”

Luke 20:38
38 For He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him.”

John 11:26
26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

To ask our living brothers and sisters in Christ to pray for us, yes, that is biblical.

Asking dead saints to pray for us, no that is completely unbiblical.

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DEAD Saints is an oxymoron:

Matthew 22:32
32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Mark 12:27
27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. You are therefore greatly mistaken.”

Luke 20:38
38 For He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him.”

John 11:26
26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

The church is not the sole infallible authority for the Christian, the Bible is.

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Odd that scripture teaches the opposite of this:

1 Timothy 3:15 but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

While Paul indeed says that ALL scripture is profitable, there is only one entity that scripture testifies is "the pillar and ground of truth", and that entity is the Church.
I suppose You are free to Disagree with what 1 Timothy 3:15 teaches if it doesn't fit your paradigm, but my recommendation would be to adjust your paradigm to fit the scripture, and not vis versa.

Again, asking living saints to pray for us, nothing wrong with that. Asking dead saints to pray us would be sin.

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AGAIN,

"DEAD Saints" is an oxymoron:

Matthew 22:32
32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Mark 12:27
27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. You are therefore greatly mistaken.”

Luke 20:38
38 For He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him.”

John 11:26
26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

Maybe you don't believe this?

parousia70 said:

Scripture instructs the church, the Body of Christ, to pray for one another.
The question then becomes, where in scripture can you point to that teaches physical death separates the members of Christ's Body, the Church, from one another?



The rest of your post is mostly a Straw Man, and Not pertinent to this discussion, but I will ask you to address a one point:



Only AFTER the GWT Judgement would this be true.
Are you asserting the GWT Judgment is past?


Again, I have demonstrated that Scripture indeed exhorts the members of the Church to pray for one another.
Your task is now to post the Bible Scriptures from any of the 66 canonized Scriptures which tell us that physical death separates the Members of Christ's Body, the Church, from one another, especially in light of this comment of yours:

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Also scripture consists of 73 books and yes, in the book of maccabes the subject is treated.

parousia70 said:

Scripture instructs the church, the Body of Christ, to pray for one another.
The question then becomes, where in scripture can you point to that teaches physical death separates the members of Christ's Body, the Church, from one another?



The rest of your post is mostly a Straw Man, and Not pertinent to this discussion, but I will ask you to address a one point:



Only AFTER the GWT Judgement would this be true.
Are you asserting the GWT Judgment is past?


Again, I have demonstrated that Scripture indeed exhorts the members of the Church to pray for one another.
Your task is now to post the Bible Scriptures from any of the 66 canonized Scriptures which tell us that physical death separates the Members of Christ's Body, the Church, from one another, especially in light of this comment of yours:

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Good question and thanks for asking. No to your question. The GWT has not taken place and actually I am a little surprised you would ask. It is clear in The Revelation chapter 20 when it will take place.

The GWT Judgment is for believers. Believers will also be judged by Christ, but since Christ’s righteousness has been imputed to us and our names are written in the book of life, we will be rewarded, but not punished, according to our deeds.

Romans 14:10-12 says that we will all stand before the judgment seat of Christ and that each one of us will give an account to God.

However, it is my understanding of the Scriptures that when death happens, believers will be taken into the presence of Christ in heaven.
According to Acts 1:2, 3:21; 1 Thess. 1:10; 4:16 and 2 Thess:1:7, Christ is in heaven now and believers will go to be with Him.

Jesus said to the thief on the cross in Luke 23:43...... "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with me in Paradise".

And on two different occasions Paul spoke of death as ushering us into the presence of Christ:
Philippians 1:23-24...........
"But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake. "

2 Corth. 5:6-9.........
Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord--for we walk by faith, not by sight--we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.

The "Judgment Seat of Christ is for Un- believers. There spirits are in the torments side of Shoal today and when the Judgment Seat of Christ takes place they will be cast into the lake of fire.

You said............
"Again, I have demonstrated that Scripture indeed exhorts the members of the Church to pray for one another."

That is an ambiguous comment as it does not pertain to the issue we were talking about. YES we should all pray one for another but the issue was "praying for the dead or wanting the dead to pray for us."

So then if you would like to respond to the issue at hand, may I say to you that prayers on behalf of the dead have no meaning, for nothing can be changed by them. Clearly, prayers should be for the living while there is still hope of repentance, not for the dead, who can do nothing.

Major1 said:

The "Judgment Seat of Christ is for Un- believers. There spirits are in the torments side of Shoal today and when the Judgment Seat of Christ takes place they will be cast into the lake of fire.

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The "Torments side" of Shoal?
Who do you say is in the non-torments side? Anyone?

You said............
"Again, I have demonstrated that Scripture indeed exhorts the members of the Church to pray for one another."

That is an ambiguous comment as it does not pertain to the issue we were talking about. YES we should all pray one for another but the issue was "praying for the dead or wanting the dead to pray for us."

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As far as I know, you were the FIRST person in this discussion to bring up the living praying FOR the dead in this thread. I know for sure I never brought that up.
The rest of us were discussing asking the saints in heaven to pray FOR us.

You could start another thread about the living praying for the dead i suppose if that topic interests you, but as far as I can tell, that is not what THIS thread is about.

And you STILL haven't answered my question!
You said: YES we should all pray one for another

Does that mean you believe praying for one another a Biblical requirement essential to the faith?
Yes or No.

Finally, How do you square this:

God's Word shows that the dead no longer have any physical or mental activity (Psalm 146:4; Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10). Each person who dies sleeps in his grave in unconsciousness until the resurrection (John 5:28-29; Daniel 12:2; Job 19:25-26; 14:12-14; John 3:13; Acts 2:29, 34).

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With This:

Jesus and Luke believed both in a conscious life immediately after death (cf. 16:19-31; 23:39-43)

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You appear to be promoting two polar opposite views simultaneously.
How does that work in your mind?
How can we be simultaneously conscious and unconscious after we shed our earthly tent?

parousia70 said:

DEAD Saints is an oxymoron:

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Is Paul here on earth anymore? Is Peter? John?

Clearly I meant physically dead, not spiritually.

parousia70 said:

Odd that scripture teaches the opposite of this:

1 Timothy 3:15 but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

While Paul indeed says that ALL scripture is profitable, there is only one entity that scripture testifies is "the pillar and ground of truth", and that entity is the Church.
I suppose You are free to Disagree with what 1 Timothy 3:15 teaches if it doesn't fit your paradigm, but my recommendation would be to adjust your paradigm to fit the scripture, and not vis versa.

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The pillar and foundation holds up the truth. The pillar and foundation is not the truth (or sole infallible authority itself) but it holds up the truth. Jesus Christ is the truth and He is the authority and His word. Moreover, the church is the body of believers in Jesus Christ, not the Roman Catholic church and its multitude of false doctrines and dogmas that are completely foreign to the early church (such as the bodily assumption of Mary, the immacualate conception of Mary, the eternal virginity of Mary, Purgatory, Indulgences, et. al.)

parousia70 said:

Maybe you don't believe this?

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No, you are twisting my words.

JoeP222w said:

Clearly I meant physically dead, not spiritually.

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Clearly I don't mean physically dead.

Glad we go that cleared up.

No, you are twisting my words.

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Really?
Then show me where you believe scripture teaches that physical death separates members of the Body of Christ from one another?

I'll go first and show scriptures that teach it does not:

1. All Christians are connected through the Body of Christ

“If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.”(1 Corinthians 12:26)

“If anyone has caused grief, he has not so much grieved me as he has grieved all of you” (2 Corinthians 2:5)

2. Every Christian is a member of the Body of Christ

“Just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others.” (Romans 12:4-5)

“The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ. For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.” (1 Corinthians 12:12-13)

Through baptism

“having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.” (Colossians 2:12)

“We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.” (Romans 6:4)

“for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.” (Galatians 3:27)

3. Physical death does not separate us from the Body of Christ

“For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Romans 8:38-39)

4. There is only one Body of Christ in Heaven and on Earth

“by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.” (Ephesians 2:15-16)

“There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called—one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.” (Ephesians 4:4-5)

5. The Church is the Body of Christ

“And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.” (Ephesians 1:22-23)

“And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy” (Colossians 1:18)

6. Just as we can pray for one another, we can suffer for one another because we are all connected in Christ

“Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church. (Colossians 1:24)

7. If you can ask a member of the Body of Christ on earth to pray for you, then you can also ask someone who is a member of that same Body of Christ in heaven to do the same for they are not "dead" at all.

"He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive." (Luke 20:38)


Your turn.
what'chya got?

parousia70 said:

The "Torments side" of Shoal?
Who do you say is in the non-torments side? Anyone?



As far as I know, you were the FIRST person in this discussion to bring up the living praying FOR the dead in this thread. I know for sure I never brought that up.
The rest of us were discussing asking the saints in heaven to pray FOR us.

You could start another thread about the living praying for the dead i suppose if that topic interests you, but as far as I can tell, that is not what THIS thread is about.

And you STILL haven't answered my question!
You said: YES we should all pray one for another

Does that mean you believe praying for one another a Biblical requirement essential to the faith?
Yes or No.

Finally, How do you square this:



With This:


You appear to be promoting two polar opposite views simultaneously.
How does that work in your mind?
How can we be simultaneously conscious and unconscious after we shed our earthly tent?

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Again......I do not say anything my friend.

In torments side of Shoal are all the lost spirits of all the ages. The term “Hell” is commonly understood to mean a place of torment where the souls of the wicked go after physical death but the translation is poor.

While Hell was created for Satan and the other fallen angels, the unsaved of humanity from all ages will be with them in this place of torment where

Matthew 13:42 says ...................
“there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth”,

No one is in the Lake of Fire at this time, it will one day hold all the lost of all the ages. The first residents of this place of fire and brimstone will be the Beast (Antichrist) and the False Prophet who, at the end of the Tribulation, will be “cast alive into a lake burning with brimstone” according to Rev. 19:19-20.

Joining them will be the unsaved of the nations who survive the Tribulation as told to us in Mat. 25:31-32,41-46. Also, at Jesus Christ’s return to earth, the rebel Israelites, unbelieving Jews, who survive the Tribulation, will be denied entrance into the Millennial Kingdom, no doubt to join their Gentile counterparts in the “place of everlasting fire” and that is seen in Eze. 20:33-38; Mat. 7:21-23; Mat. 24:29-31,45-51).

Then, at the end of the Millennial Kingdom of Jesus Christ, Satan will be “cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever” as we see in Rev. 20:10. And finally, the unsaved dead of all ages will be raised and judged at the Great White Throne by Jesus Christ and then cast into the Lake of Fire according to Rev. 20:11-15.

Please forgive me for the confusion of ........
"The living praying FOR the dead in this thread. I know for sure I never brought that up.
The rest of us were discussing asking the saints in heaven to pray FOR us."

I guess in some minds there is a difference there but OK, no problem for me. The answer is till the same. You are welcome to ask the dead in heaven to pray for you but I do not believe that they will.

The Bible tells me in 1 Tim. 2:5.........
"Jesus is the one mediator between God and man. There is one God and one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus."

That being the Bible fact, I do not know why we would need anyone else in heaven praying for us.
It is understanding that there is no Biblical evidence that the saints in heaven serve the saints on earth. The Roman Catholic Church is going beyond the Bible when they cultivate the practice of asking or expecting saints for prayer or help for intercession.

You are very confusing.

You said.........And you STILL haven't answered my question!
But then you acknowledged my direct answer to your question which was .......
"YES we should all pray one for another"!!!!

Then you ask this..........
Does that mean you believe praying for one another a Biblical requirement essential to the faith?
Yes or No?

NO!

We should pray for each other but as for it being an "Essential" for salvation, NO.

As for your last question of...............
Jesus and Luke believed both in a conscious life immediately after death (cf. 16:19-31; 23:39-43)

You appear to be promoting two polar opposite views simultaneously.
How does that work in your mind?
How can we be simultaneously conscious and unconscious after we shed our earthly tent?

I thought it was clear that there is a physical death that is in view in Luke 16.
The body is dead and goes to the grave to be resurrected in the future. In Luke 16, it is the spirit of the rich man who is in torments not his physical body.

I hope this fulfills your requirements of me.

parousia70 said:

Clearly I don't mean physically dead.

Glad we go that cleared up.

Really? Then why ask me in comment #85..........

"Jesus and Luke believed both in a conscious life immediately after death (cf. 16:19-31; 23:39-43)
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You appear to be promoting two polar opposite views simultaneously.
How does that work in your mind?
How can we be simultaneously conscious and unconscious after we shed our earthly tent?"

Aren't you saying one thing and then another thing? Aren't you actually twisting words to make them acceptable?

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Really? Then why ask me in comment #85..........

"Jesus and Luke believed both in a conscious life immediately after death (cf. 16:19-31; 23:39-43)
Click to expand...
You appear to be promoting two polar opposite views simultaneously.
How does that work in your mind?
How can we be simultaneously conscious and unconscious after we shed our earthly tent?"

Aren't you saying one thing and then another thing? Aren't you actually twisting words to make them acceptable?

Stabat Mater said:

Also scripture consists of 73 books and yes, in the book of maccabes the subject is treated.

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Not so.

The accepted canonized Scripture contains 66, but The Catholic Bible consists of 73 because of the inclusion of the Occultist Apocryphal books.

There are doctrines and practices contained in the Apocrypha that are contrary to what the Scripture teaches. They include the following.............
They Teach A Person Is Saved By Works,
The Non-biblical Doctrine Of Purgatory,
The Apocrypha Teaches The Pre-existence Of Souls,
It Teaches Creation Out Of Pre-Existent Matter.

The earliest existing list of the Old Testament canon comes from a man named Melito, a bishop of Sardis. In approximately A.D. 170 he wrote the following.

"When I came to the east and reached the place where these things were preached and done, and learned accurately the books of the Old Testament, I set down the facts and sent them to you. These are their names: the five books of Moses, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua the son of Nun, Judges, Ruth, four books of the Kingdom, two books of Chronicles, the Psalms of David, the Proverbs of Solomon and his wisdom, Ecclesiastes, the Song of Songs, Job, the prophets Isaiah, Jeremiah, The Twelve in a single book, Daniel, Ezekiel, Ezra.

This list of Melito is highly instructive. He includes all the books of the present canon except Esther. The reference to the four books of the kingdom would be 1,2 Samuel and 1,2 Kings. Ezra was the common way to refer to Ezra-Nehemiah. Wisdom was merely a fuller description of the Book of Proverbs - not the Apocryphal book by that name. Among ancient writers Proverbs was often called Wisdom.

While including all of the books of the present Old Testament canon Melito nowhere mentions any of the books of the Apocrypha.

Stabat Mater said:

There is a difference between being dead and separated from ones body.
God is as written in Luke not a God of the dead but the living and by that it's pretty clear that those who belong to Christ and has his spirit never will die nor perish.

Once we (a believer dies) die we get taken either to heaven or to heaven through the cleansing process of purgatory.
We live on from the very moment we leave this world, its not death it's more like a transition.
We die of course, but we're never dead.

At the final day we get our resurrected bodies and get truly glorified as Christ himself is.

The reason I quoted Luke it's to shed some light on why we believe in prayers to Mary and the saints (Mariology and Hagiography).
There's one church divided into three, victoria ecclesia (the victorious church, the saints in heaven, the fighting church (
De ecclesiae repugnatur pugnantibus, us living on earth) and the suffering church (Pro eo quod laboravit ecclesia, the one in purgatory).

Despite divided by time momentarily and level of "readiness" and preparation to be with God we're still one living and in a figurative speaking breathing church.

We may pray for those who've gone before us and we believe are in purgatory and we may pray to/ talk to/ ask the saints in heaven to intercede for us to Christ.

So can we communicate with them?
Answer is by Christ, he's the bridge that binds us together.
Expressed with the the words: with him and through him and in him.

With him (his sacrifice at the Calvary) we're justified, through him (we pray to God and have communion and fellowship with the saints) and in him our soul find it's peace.

Sooo, when I'm reaching out to Mary I'm praying to her through Christ.
If it wasn't for Christ communicating with any who've gone prior to us would be impossible and in vain.

Please pay attention to how deeply Christological this is.
I mean how could we ever cross any valley if we there wasn't for the bridges?

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Purgatory is a non-Biblical Catholic opinion.

You are welcome to believe it but it is not in the Bible. The Bible actually says the opposite in Hebrews 9:27..........
"Man is born once to die and then the judgment".

There is NO Biblical record of the dead in Christ praying for the living on the earth.

If you want to think that please do so but do not use the Bible as your souse of validation.

Jesus Christ according to the Scriptures is the intercessor between GOD AND MAN, not between man and man. That is just completely unacceptable my friend.

JoeP222w said:

2 different things here. There is only one intecessor for man and that is Jesus Christ. It is idolatry and blasphemy to pray to saints.

Asking living saints to pray for us is a good thing. Asking dead saints to pray for us is necromancy and an abomination.



To ask our living brothers and sisters in Christ to pray for us, yes, that is biblical.

Asking dead saints to pray for us, no that is completely unbiblical.



Asking their living brothers and sisters in Christ to pray for them, yes.

Praying to dead saints, I don't know. If they did, they were doing it against biblical truth. The church is not the sole infallible authority for the Christian, the Bible is.




There is no indication whatsoever in the Bible of this being the case that I am aware of.



Praying to saints: that would be sin.

Again, asking living saints to pray for us, nothing wrong with that. Asking dead saints to pray us would be sin.

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I love your responces! They are all Biblical and truthful!

Major1 said:

In torments side of Shoal are all the lost spirits of all the ages. The term “Hell” is commonly understood to mean a place of torment where the souls of the wicked go after physical death but the translation is poor.

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I didn't ask about the torments side, but thanks for the elaboration.
I asked about the NON torments side of Shoal.
Who is there today in the NON torments side? Anyone?

The Bible tells me in 1 Tim. 2:5.........
"Jesus is the one mediator between God and man. There is one God and one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus."

That being the Bible fact, I do not know why we would need anyone else in heaven praying for us.

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Based on this "biblical fact" why would we need anyone else on earth praying for us either then?
What's the difference based on 1 Tim 2:5?

It is understanding that there is no Biblical evidence that the saints in heaven serve the saints on earth. The Roman Catholic Church is going beyond the Bible when they cultivate the practice of asking or expecting saints for prayer or help for intercession.

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Please see my post #87 in this thread and explain to my why the scriptures I cited do not mean what I contend they do? Then please offer your opinion as to what those scriptures do mean instead.

You are very confusing.

You said.........And you STILL haven't answered my question!
But then you acknowledged my direct answer to your question which was .......
"YES we should all pray one for another"!!!!

Then you ask this..........
Does that mean you believe praying for one another a Biblical requirement essential to the faith?
Yes or No?

NO!

We should pray for each other but as for it being an "Essential" for salvation, NO.

Click to expand...

Seems to me you are the confusing one here... you questioned earlier if anyone believes asking the saints in heaven to pray for us is "essential to the faith". Why would you ask that? What makes that an issue for the departed saints but not an issue for the earthly saints?

I don't follow your logic on that at all.

As for your last question of...............
Jesus and Luke believed both in a conscious life immediately after death (cf. 16:19-31; 23:39-43)

You appear to be promoting two polar opposite views simultaneously.
How does that work in your mind?
How can we be simultaneously conscious and unconscious after we shed our earthly tent?

I thought it was clear that there is a physical death that is in view in Luke 16.
The body is dead and goes to the grave to be resurrected in the future. In Luke 16, it is the spirit of the rich man who is in torments not his physical body.

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Are the dead unconscious and unaware or are they conscious and aware.
You have argued FOR both.

Which is it?

parousia70 said:

I didn't ask about the torments side, but thanks for the elaboration.
I asked about the NON torments side of Shoal.
Who is there today in the NON torments side? Anyone?


Based on this "biblical fact" why would we need anyone else on earth praying for us either then?
What's the difference based on 1 Tim 2:5?


Please see my post #87 in this thread and explain to my why the scriptures I cited do not mean what I contend they do? Then please offer your opinion as to what those scriptures do mean instead.



Seems to me you are the confusing one here... you questioned earlier if anyone believes asking the saints in heaven to pray for us is "essential to the faith". Why would you ask that? What makes that an issue for the departed saints but not an issue for the earthly saints?

I don't follow your logic on that at all.



Are the dead unconscious and unaware or are they conscious and aware.
You have argued FOR both.

Which is it?

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I am glad I could elaborate for you. As for the Paradise side of Shoal, NO ONE IS THERE.
The Bible reports that sometime between His crucifixion and His resurrection, Jesus went to hell. In fact, Ephesians 4:9 says that Jesus “first descended into the lower parts of the earth.” Why? The Bible says it was to set the captives free and to take the very keys to hell away from Satan. Otherwise, how could we ever claim to have victory over death?

That’s what Jesus meant when He said in Revelation 1:18, “I am he who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.”

If all that is true – and it is – then how could Jesus have been in two places at the same time? After all, He told the thief on the cross, “Today you will be with me in Paradise.” (Luke 23:43)

Now as for what you posted in #87, I did not read that. It is just way to much words and I do not do well with that length of an post. IF you would like to break that down into a shorter version I would be glad to respond and speak to what you has posted.

I am not dealing in logic at all. I am speaking to and talking Scriptures.

You are incorrect in that I have argued both the dead are conscious and unconscious.

The Bible says the presence of the Lord is a place where there is no suffering or pain for the believer. If, however, the dead in heaven could see what their loved ones are doing on earth, they certainly would be in pain. They would see many of their loved ones on a course to eternal separation from God. This is certainly inconsistent with what the Bible says about heaven.

So if you want to believe the dead know what is going on here on the earth, go right ahead and believe that.

Lord's Servant said:

What do you think about praying to the saints or asking them to pray for us ? Is it biblical? Did you think the early church did it? Can the saints in heaven hear us?
What does your church ex. Angilcan,Eastern Orthodox,Roman Catholic,Lutheran, believe in praying to the saints or asking them to pray for us?

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Hi again, I know, I KNOW, it seems like I'm stalking you. lol.

Did the saints Moses and Elijah hear the Words of Christ and not only hear the word of Christ but appeared to Him as well, at the transfiguration on the Mount?

Oh yea many protestants will indeed say: "that was Jesus Christ that they were talking to". So then I will ask the Protestants: "So Jesus Christ both God and Man is leading us in error for doing what we should not be doing, talking/praying to the saints in Heaven???

I'm sure you have read the Rich man and Lazarus. How can the rich man in hell speak/pray to father Abraham??? Does a man in hell have more power to speak/pray to Fr. Abraham than us Christians here on earth??? Note: Abraham in paradise knew all that went on between the Rich man and Lazarus, Abraham stated himself when he said: "Luke 16:25And Abraham said to him: Son, remember that thou didst receive good things in thy lifetime, and likewise Lazareth evil things, but now he is comforted; and thou art tormented. And many protestants have the nerve to say that the Saints in heaven can't hear us nor do they know what is happening on earth. Well, Fr. Abraham just schooled them, that the Saints can hear us and do know what is happening here on earth.

So Yeah! I tell you make FRIENDS with the Saints in Heaven so they can rescue you and have you reclining on their Bosom like the Poor man Lazarus was reclining on Abraham Bosom. Amen

The Saint are ALIVE and Well and Like Abraham knows what goes on down hear on earth, again, Abraham said it not me.

The word Praying to a Protestant it means worshiping the one who they pray to. Not so with Catholics Worship is Worship and Praying is Speaking. Example: when a Catholic prays to a saints wether in heaven or on earth, it is just that, praying no worshipping involved. Now when a Catholic prays to Jesus Christ now we add Worship along with prayer/talking. Amen

Yes, the early Church did it, because Christ did it at the Transfiguration on the mount. Amen Amen