Eternal Torment, Annihilation or Universal Reconciliation?

Which one do you believe will happen at the final punishment?

  • Eternal Torment

    Votes: 33 42.3%
  • Annihilation

    Votes: 16 20.5%
  • Universal Reconciliation

    Votes: 10 12.8%
  • Probably annihilation but still hopeful of universal reconciliation

    Votes: 5 6.4%
  • Not sure

    Votes: 10 12.8%
  • Other

    Votes: 4 5.1%

  • Total voters
    78

ClementofA

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Same nonsense you posted in another thread. Paul does not interrupt giving instructions to Christians to tell all sinful mankind whatever sinful blasphemous works they are doing will be burned up but they will be saved, no matter what, then return to talking about Christians.

Verse 11 says that "no one" can lay any foundation other than the one that has been laid which is Jesus Christ. The words "no one" are not limited to the saints in Corinth, but refer to all mankind. This is the last reference identifying any group of people in the next several verses leading up to v.15. Thus prior context and the more immediate following context both support the view that v.15 refers to the unsaved being saved.

The immediate context (vs.16-17) following v.15 of 1 Corinthians chapter 3 speaks of a person who is destroyed by God, i.e. unsaved. Verse 15 already revealed that this person will be saved, yet so as by fire. The purpose of this destruction (3:17) is for salvation, as also supported by 1 Cor.5:4-5, which reveals exactly that.



1 Corinthians 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
This vs. certainly does not support UR in any way! It is about one person, vs. 1, who is sleeping with his father's wife. Correct he should be delivered to Satan for the destruction of the flesh but the rest of the vs. does not guarantee him salvation. The single Greek word translated "may be saved" is σώζω/sozo it is aorist, passive, subjunctive i.e. σωθη/sothe. The subjunctive mood is the mood of probability and possibility.
.....If Paul had meant that the sinner would definitely be saved he would have written σώζω/sozo in the indicative mood, i.e. σωθησομεθα/sothesometha, as he did in Rom 5:10, Rom 9:27, Rom 10:9, 13, Rom 11:26 et al. where it is correctly translated "shall be saved.."
....

I don't dispute any of this. The destruction in 1Cor.5:4-5 for salvation in the day of the Lord concerns exactly that, being saved at a particular time, the day of the Lord. It doesn't regard final destiny. Any people not saved at the day of the Lord are not lost forever. The Lord will still deal with them for their own good via judgement, destruction, so as by fire, the lake of fire, or whatever means He sees fit. I wouldn't want to be in their shoes.

Nevertheless 1 Cor.5:4-5 reveals a principle of God's dealings with men. That when He gives the unsaved over for destruction, it is for their own good, for salvation. Likewise regarding those in 1 Cor.3:17, we see very similar language, namely God destroying a person in the context of salvation (3:15).

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
 
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Butch5

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Even the first Adam was a lifeless body until God put breath in his nostrils...but that Adam was cursed and blocked from the tree of life...Life promised to those who possess the spirit of Christ.

All are living bodies. Not all are living spirits...some walk dead to knowing God/sin=death (which is the curse from the first Adam that Christ came to reconcile), some in the Spirit of Christ.

No one is a living spirit. Do you realize that the "first Adam/second Adam" has nothing to do with what we're discussing?
 
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mozo41

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The Jews answered Him, "We do not stone You for a good work, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a man, make yourself God."
Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law: 'I said you are gods'?
If he called them gods to whom the word of God came, and the Scripture is not able to be broken, do you say
of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You blaspheme,' because I said, 'I am Son of God'?
 
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mozo41

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They know not, neither do they understand; They go about in darkness; All the foundations of the earth are moved. I said, "You are gods, And all of you are sons of the Most High. "Nevertheless you will die like men And fall like any one of the princes."
 
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PeaceJoyLove

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No one is a living spirit. Do you realize that the "first Adam/second Adam" has nothing to do with what we're discussing?
It has everything to do with how we perceive who we are...
 
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PeaceJoyLove

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That conflicts with what God said. God told Adam, 'you are dust.' He didn't say you are a spirit or a soul. He said, 'you are dust.' Adam came out of the ground and returns to it.

This idea that we are a spirit/soul apart from the body is Greek Philosophy and Gnosticism.

As was shared above:

Psalm 49:15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah.
 
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SBC

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You rely on you understanding of the Scriptures.

You attempting to speak for me, saying what you think applies to me; is false testimony.

Knowledge isn't revealed in Scripture you have to read and interpret it.

Of course knowledge is revealed in Scripture!

Of course you can use your mind to try and figure out what the knowledge in Scripture means, as you are teaching.

Or you can seek God for His understanding of what Scripture means; which is applicable to me, as I already said.

Gods understanding does not come by flesh and bones or with ink and paper.

God Bless,
SBC
 
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Butch5

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You attempting to speak for me, saying what you think applies to me; is false testimony.

No, it's not false. The Bible doesn't speak to you and say this is what I mean. You're reading the text like everyone else and like everyone else you interpret what you read.



[/quote]Of course knowledge is revealed in Scripture![/quote]

No, it's not. The Bible doesn't speak. It's read and interpreted.

Of course you can use your mind to try and figure out what the knowledge in Scripture means, as you are teaching.

Or you can seek God for His understanding of what Scripture means; which is applicable to me, as I already said.

Gods understanding does not come by flesh and bones or with ink and paper.
SBC

And how exactly do you get that knowledge?
 
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Der Alte

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Verse 11 says that "no one" can lay any foundation other than the one that has been laid which is Jesus Christ. The words "no one" are not limited to the saints in Corinth, but refer to all mankind. This is the last reference identifying any group of people in the next several verses leading up to v.15. Thus prior context and the more immediate following context both support the view that v.15 refers to the unsaved being saved.
Nonsense once again! We don't talk like that and Paul did not talk like that! Paul did not have to repeat who his audience/subject was in every sentence for his audience to understand who he was talking to and about. You keep ignoring the fact that Paul identified his subject in vs. 9, "laborers together with God, God's husbandry, God's building." and again in vs. 16, the temple of God, that the Spirit of God dwells in" but you want to yank vss. 12-15 out of their immediate context and make it about a completely different group.
1 Corinthians 3:9-17
(9) For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
(10) According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
(11) For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
(12) Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
(13) Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
(14) If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
(15) If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
(16) Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
(17) If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
vs. 9 Paul's audience laborers together with God, God's husbandry, God's building not all mankind.
vs. 10 Paul says "I laid a foundation and someone else is building on it. But each one, i.e. laborers together with God, God's husbandry, God's building, should build with care. Thieves, robbers, murderers etc. are not in any way building on the foundation of Christ. This vs. does not include any sinners.
Vs. 11 Paul identifies the foundation, Jesus Christ.
Vs. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation, Christ vs. 10, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;. Sinners are not building on the foundation of Christ. You would have us believe that Paul suddenly without indication now starts talking about the entire unsaved world, as if Paul was talking about murders, robberies, theft etc. being the work building on the foundation.
Vs. 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person's work. Their work is still the work of the saved building on the foundation of Christ, vs. 10, not all the sinful deeds of the lost.
Vs. 14 If what has been built, , i.e. the foundation of Christ vs. 10, survives, the builder will receive a reward.
Vs. 15.
If it, the work vs. 10, is burned up, the builder, only the laborers together with God, God's husbandry, God's building vs. 9, will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.
Vs. 16 Paul tells his audience you, not they, are God's temple, only laborers together with God, God's husbandry, God's building not all mankind, and that God's Spirit dwells in your midst?
Vs. 17 If any man, those who are God's temple and in whom God's Spirit dwells, defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for God's temple is sacred, and you together are that temple.
The immediate context (vs.16-17) following v.15 of 1 Corinthians chapter 3 speaks of a person who is destroyed by God, i.e. unsaved. Verse 15 already revealed that this person will be saved, yet so as by fire. The purpose of this destruction (3:17) is for salvation, as also supported by 1 Cor.5:4-5, which reveals exactly that.
Wrong! Those who will be destroyed by God vs. 17 are those who are the temple of God in whom the Spirit of God dwells in vs. 16. Lets switch verses around and throw in a verse from another chapter and make the Bible say anything we want it to. I will accept your "interpretation if you can show me any other passage where Paul is talking to a specific group but in the middle of that he suddenly switches subjects without any indication?
 
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SBC

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No, it's not false. The Bible doesn't speak to you and say this is what I mean. You're reading the text like everyone else and like everyone else you interpret what you read.

Calm down friend. No where did I say the Bible speaks to me.

No where have I said mankind should interpret the Bible.
If you had paid attention, I said I rely on Gods understanding.

So why do keep falsely testifying of me?

Of course knowledge is revealed in Scripture!

No, it's not. The Bible doesn't speak. It's read and interpreted.

Oh yipes! Seriously?

Gen 1
[1] In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Seriously friend. That is knowledge given you.
Seriously you require that to be interpreted?

Gen 7
[12] And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.

Seriously friend. That is knowledge given you.
Seriously you require that to be interpreted?

More knowledge revealed in Scripture;

2Kgs.1
[1] Then Moab rebelled against Israel after the death of Ahab.
Prov 1
[7] The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
Dan.1
[1] In the third year of the reign of Jehoiakim king of Judah came Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon unto Jerusalem, and besieged it.
Zech 14
[9] And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
Matt.8
[1] When he was come down from the mountain, great multitudes followed him.
John.1
[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
1 Pet 1
[25] But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.


And how exactly do you get that knowledge?

The Scripture is written knowledge. I read.

Understanding according to God, is something God gives a man.

God Bless,
SBC
 
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Aseyesee

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The three components of man are found in this verse ...

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

This verse shows one component ...

In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

(Though the punishment for the woman and the man are different in respect to what gender depicts in our make up).

This verse shows two components ...

And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

This verse shows the third truth of self ...

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

or ...

For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

Which relates to the 2nd man; the first one (according to Paul in reference to the two that become one) being soul.

The Bible is progressional in the understanding of who we are.

First dust/body, then soul, then spirit ... which also is the number (3) that relates to perception in the bible.

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
 
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ClementofA

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Sinners are not building on the foundation of Christ.

Verse 11 says "no man". That refers to all mankind.

(11) For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
(12) Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
(13) Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
(14) If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
(15) If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Compare:

And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. (Revelation 22:12, KJV)
And lo, I come quickly, and my reward is with me, to render to each as his work shall be; (Rev.22:12, YLT)

Jeremiah 17:10
"I, the LORD, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give to each man according to his ways, According to the results of his deeds.

Matthew 16:27
For the Son of Man will come in His Father's glory with His angels, and then He will repay each one according to what he has done.

Romans 2:6-11 Who will render to every man according to his deeds…

In Mt 25:31-46...the righteous & the unrighteous are distinguished by their works.

James speaks of justification by works:

James 2:20b-26 faith without works is dead 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

1 Corinthians ties certain works to being unsaved, e.g. 1 Cor.3:17 & 5:1-5 & 6:9-11.

Compare also 7:19, 9:27; 10:5-13; 10:18-22; 11:27-32.

Those who will be destroyed by God vs. 17 are those who are the temple of God in whom the Spirit of God dwells in vs. 16.

They are lost and need salvation [as all sinners do] which is referred to in verse 15:

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Compare:

Jesus is the Light that lightens every man (Jn.1:9). Human beings were made in God's image & likeness. They are temples made by God:

Acts 17:22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens...
24...[the] Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;...25...
he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;... 28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. 29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God...
 
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Der Alte

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Verse 11 says "no man". That refers to all mankind.
Only if you ignore vss, 9, 12 and 16 which identify Paul's audience. How many robbers, thieves, adulterers etc. did Paul include in laborers with God, God's husbandry, God's building, building on the foundation of Jesus Christ in whom the spirit of God dwells?
(11) For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
(12) Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
(13) Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
(14) If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
vs. 9 Paul's audience, laborers together with God, God's husbandry, God's building NOT all mankind.
vs. 10 Paul says "I laid a foundation and someone else is building on it. But each one, i.e. laborers together with God, God's husbandry, God's building vs. 9, should build with care. Thieves, robbers, murderers etc. are not in any way building on the foundation of Christ. This vs. does not include any sinners.
Vs. 11 Paul identifies the foundation, Jesus Christ.
Vs. 12 “Now if any man build upon this foundation,” Jesus Christ vs. 10, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble. Sinners are not building on the foundation of Christ. URs would have us believe that Paul suddenly, without indication, starts talking about the entire unsaved world, as if Paul was saying murderers, robbers, thieves etc. are working building on the foundation of Christ.
Vs. 13 “their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person's work.” Their work is still the work of the saved building on the foundation of Christ, vs. 10, not all the sinful deeds of the lost.
Vs. 14 If what has been built, i.e. only on the foundation of Christ vs. 10, survives, the builder will receive a reward.
Vs. 15. If it, the work vs. 10, is burned up, the builder, i.e. only the “laborers together with God, God's husbandry, God's building,” vs. 9, will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames. Only the work, NOT the builder, goes through this fire.
Vs. 16 Paul tells his audience "you" NOT “they,” are God's temple, and that God's Spirit dwells in you.” This means only laborers together with God, God's husbandry, God's building, not all mankind, God’s spirit does not dwell in sinners.
Vs. 17 If any man, those who are God's temple and in whom God's Spirit dwells, vs. 16, defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for God's temple is sacred, and you are that temple. Sinners are not God’s temple.
(15) If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
URs would have us believe that 1 Cor 3:15 guarantees that all mankind will be saved, no matter what. That is not what Paul said in 1 Cor 6:9-10, Gal 5:19-21, Eph 5:5, Rom 1:18-19, 24, 26,28, 32

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
(9) Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men
(10) nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will [NOT] inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21
(19) The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;
(20) idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions
(21) and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesians 5:5
(5) For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a person is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Romans 1:18-19
(18) The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness,
(19) since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
Romans 1:24
(24) Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.
Romans 1:26
(26) Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones.
Romans 1:28
(28) Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done.
Romans 1:32
(32) Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. (Revelation 22:12, KJV)
And lo, I come quickly, and my reward is with me, to render to each as his work shall be; (Rev.22:12, YLT)
Jer 17:10
"I, the LORD, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give to each man according to his ways, According to the results of his deeds.
Out-of-context proof text.
Jeremiah 17:10
(10) I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.
Jer 17:13
(13) O LORD, the hope of Israel, all that forsake thee shall be ashamed, and they that depart from me shall be written in the earth, because they have forsaken the LORD, the fountain of living waters.
Out-of-context proof texts.

Revelation 22:12
(12) And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Revelation 22:14
(14) Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Revelation 22:15
(15) For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Matthew 16:27
For the Son of Man will come in His Father's glory with His angels, and then He will repay each one according to what he has done.
Romans 2:6-11 Who will render to every man according to his deeds…
In Mt 25:31-46...the righteous & the unrighteous are distinguished by their works.
More out-of-context proof texts.
Matthews 16:25-26
(25) For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
(26) For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
Matthew 25:46
(46) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Where is the part about works being burned and even sinners being saved so as by fire?
Begin James speaks of justification by works:
James 2:20-26 faith without works is dead 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
More out-of-context proof texts. You forgot the part about faith. Where is the faith if 1 Cor 3:12-15 is about or includes lost sinners?
They are lost and need salvation [as all sinners do] which is referred to in verse 15:
Nonsense! Vs. 16 cannot be referring to lost people.
1 Corinthians 3:16-17
(16) Know you not that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
(17) If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
Vs. 16 "You," three times, NOT "we" or "they!" "You," the Christians at Corinth, NOT all mankind! The spirit of God does not dwell in lost sinners. Paul does not switch to talking about all mankind vs. 17. if any man, who is the temple of God in whom the Spirit of God dwells, defiles the temple, God does not save them so as by fire but destroys them.

 
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Nonsense! Vs. 16 cannot be referring to lost people.
1 Corinthians 3:16-17
(16) Know you not that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
(17) If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Obviously there are lost ones are in v.17.

Other comments have been addressed before or didn't need any reply.

Matthew 25:46
(46) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Where is the part about works being burned and even sinners being saved so as by fire?

Every passage does not give us the whole story [that's what the whole bible is for], otherwise the bible would not be the size it is, but be the size of a very large library.

Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983
And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."

Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959
"And these shall go away into age-abiding correction, But the righteous into age-abiding life."

Youngs Literal Translation of the Holy Bible, 1898:
"And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during."


The vast majority of learned sources agree the word aionios, & the noun, aion, can refer to a duration which is of a limited time period that has an end. The real issue here, then, is whether or not the word means a limited time period in the context of Matthew 25:31-46 in regards to punishment. That is something that should be a matter of serious study rather than assumptions based on what my pastor or bible study group assumes to be the case.

Considering the Greek word kolasis ("punishment", Mt.25:46, KJV) can refer to a corrective punishment, that should tell the reader of Matthew 25:46 what the possible duration of aionios ("everlasting", KJV) is & that it may refer to a finite punishment. Why? Because since it is corrective, it is with the purpose of bringing the person corrected to salvation. Oncce saved the person no longer has need of such a punishment & it ends. So it isn't "everlasting". [Or if it "everlasting", it is only everlasting in its positive effect]. Therefore this passage could just as easily support universalism as anything else.

From a review of a book by Ilaria Ramelli, namely The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Brill, 2013. 890 pp):

Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena | Nemes | Journal of Analytic Theology


"...in a passage in Origen in which he speaks of “life after aionios life” (160). As a native speaker of Greek he does not see a contradiction in such phrasing; that is because aionios life does not mean “unending, eternal life,” but rather “life of the next age.” Likewise the Bible uses the word kolasis to describe the punishment of the age to come. Aristotle distinguished kolasis from timoria, the latter referring to punishment inflicted “in the interest of him who inflicts it, that he may obtain satisfaction.” On the other hand, kolasis refers to correction, it “is inflicted in the interest of the sufferer” (quoted at 32). Thus Plato can affirm that it is good to be punished (to undergo kolasis), because in this way a person is made better (ibid.). This distinction survived even past the time of the writing of the New Testament, since Clement of Alexandria affirms that God does not timoreitai, punish for retribution, but he does kolazei, correct sinners (127)."
http://journalofanalytictheology.com/jat/index.php/jat/article/viewFile/jat.2015-3.181913130418a/271

"Augustine raised the argument that since aionios in Mt. 25:46 referred to both life and punishment, it had to carry the same duration in both cases.5 However, he failed to consider that the duration of aionios is determined by the subject to which it refers. For example, when aionios referred to the duration of Jonah’s entrapment in the fish, it was limited to three days. To a slave, aionios referred to his life span. To the Aaronic priesthood, it referred to the generation preceding the Melchizedek priesthood. To Solomon’s temple, it referred to 400 years. To God it encompasses and transcends time altogether."

"Thus, the word cannot have a set value. It is a relative term and its duration depends upon that with which it is associated. It is similar to what “tall” is to height. The size of a tall building can be 300 feet, a tall man six feet, and a tall dog three feet. Black Beauty was a great horse, Abraham Lincoln a great man, and Yahweh the GREAT God. Though God is called “great,” the word “great” is neither eternal nor divine. The horse is still a horse. An adjective relates to the noun it modifies. In relation to God, “great” becomes GREAT only because of who and what God is. This silences the contention that aion must always mean forever because it modifies God. God is described as the God of Israel and the God of Abraham. This does not mean He is not the God of Gentiles, or the God of you and me. Though He is called the God of the “ages,” He nonetheless remains the God who transcends the ages."

"In addition, Augustine’s reasoning does not hold up in light of Ro. 16:25, 26 and Hab. 3:6. Here, in both cases, the same word is used twice—with God and with something temporal. “In accord with the revelation of a secret hushed in times eonian, yet manifested now…according to the injunction of the eonian God” (Ro. 16:25, 26 CLT). An eonian secret revealed at some point cannot be eternal even though it is revealed by the eonian God. Eonian does not make God eternal, but God makes eonian eternal. “And the everlasting mountains were scattered.…His ways are everlasting” (Hab. 3:6). Mountains are not eternal, though they will last a very long time. God’s ways however, are eternal, because He is eternal."
Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Jude 7 speaks of the fire that destroyed Sodom as an example of "aionion fire" (the same words aionion fire used in Mt.25:41, compare v.46). Did Sodom burn forever?

Philo was contemporary with Christ & we have this translation of his words which use the same words Christ used at Mt.25:46:

"It is better absolutely never to make any promise at all than not to assist another willingly, for no blame attaches to the one, but great dislike on the part of those who are less powerful, and intense hatred and long enduring punishment [kolasis aiónios] from those who are more powerful, is the result of the other line of conduct." Philo: Appendix 2: Fragments

In the year 544 A.D. the emperor Justinian wrote a letter:

"It is conceded that the half-heathen emperor held to the idea of endless misery, for he proceeds not only to defend, but to define the doctrine.2 He does not merely say, "We believe in aionion kolasin," for that was just what Origen himself taught. Nor does he say "the word aionion has been misunderstood; it denotes endless duration," as he would have said, had there been such a disagreement. But, writing in Greek, with all the words of that abundant language from which to choose, he says: "The holy church of Christ teaches an endless aeonian (ateleutetos aionios) life to the righteous, and endless (ateleutetos) punishment to the wicked." If he supposed aionios denoted endless duration, he would not have added the stronger word to it. The fact that he qualified it by ateleutetos, demonstrated that as late as the sixth century the former word did not signify endless duration.
Chapter 21 - Unsuccessful Attempts to Suppress Universalism

If Christ meant "endless" punishment at Mt.25:46, why use the ambiguous aionios? Why not instead use the word aperantos ("endless"; 1 Timothy 1:4)? Or why not use the words "no end" as in Lk1:33b: "And of His kingdom there will be no end"? The answer seems obvious.

Early Church Father universalists who were Greek scholars & many others of the time did not see Mt.25:46 contradicting their belief:

"The first Christians, it will be seen, said in their creeds, "I believe in the æonian life;" later, they modified the phrase "æonian life," to "the life of the coming æon," showing that the phrases are equivalent. But not a word of endless punishment. "The life of the age to come" was the first Christian creed, and later, Origen himself (an Early Church Father universalist) declares his belief in æonian punishment, and in æonian life beyond. How, then, could æonian punishment have been regarded as endless?"
Another Aionios Thread - These Things Go On Forever


"Adolph Deissman gives this account: "Upon a lead tablet found in the Necropolis at Adrumetum in the Roman province of Africa, near Carthage, the following inscription, belonging to the early third century, is scratched in Greek: 'I am adjuring Thee, the great God, the eonian, and more than eonian (epaionion) and almighty...' If by eonian, endless time were meant, then what could be more than endless time?" "

Chapter Nine

As regards the fate of the Jewish people, early in the gospel of Saint Matthew Jesus' word does correct them re the false teachings of endless torments and annihilation, as follows:

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

"Isn't it ironic that the passage most often used to support everlasting punishment is in fact one strongly opposing it when accurately understood?" (Tom Talbott, author of "The Inescapable Love of God").

Thomas Talbott - Wikipedia
http://www.thomastalbott.com/index.php
 
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