S.O.J.I.A.
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Original sin.
- Thread starter Sammy-San
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EmSw
White Horse Rider
So you do believe in universal condemnation through Adam.
I would like to present verses which present true condemnation from God.
1 Kings 8
31 “When anyone sins against his neighbor, and is forced to take an oath, and comes and takes an oath before Your altar in this temple,
32 then hear in heaven, and act, and judge Your servants, condemning the wicked, bringing his way on his head, and justifying the righteous by giving him according to his righteousness.
The wicked are condemned, and the righteous are justified. Both are according to their (evil) ways and righteousness (righteous acts). Both come after hearing in heaven, then God acting and judging. No one is condemned before God hearing, acting, and judging.
Psalm 34:21
Evil shall slay the wicked, and those who hate the righteous shall be condemned.
It is a man's evil which will slay him. It is those who hate the righteous (those who perform righteous acts), who will be condemned.
Psalm 37:33
The Lord will not leave him in his hand, nor condemn him when he is judged.
Here again we see no one is condemned until after he is judged.
Proverbs 12:2
A good man obtains favor from the Lord, but a man of wicked intentions He will condemn.
A good man obtains favor from God. A man with wicked intentions will be condemned by God.
Matthew 12:37
For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”
Jesus says it is by our words that we will be justified or condemned.
Mark 3:29
but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation”
The one who blasphemes the Holy Spirit is the one who will be condemned.
John 3
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Condemnation comes when one does not believe in Him. And here is the important part. This is the condemnation - men loved darkness rather than the light, BECAUSE THEIR DEEDS WERE EVIL.
John 5:29
and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
Condemnation comes after the resurrection. Those who are righteous (done good) will be part of the resurrection of life, while those who have done evil will be part of the resurrection of condemnation.
Condemnation is always the result of evil deeds, wicked living. Even Jesus told us condemnation is because men's deeds are evil. Condemnation from heaven never comes before a hearing in Heaven and judgement pronounced.
Zechariah 1:6
‘Just as the Lord of hosts determined to do to us, according to our ways and according to our deeds, so He has dealt with us.’
God determines to do to man according to his ways and deeds. This is how God deals with man. God looks to man's righteous deeds or evil deeds to determine how He deals with him. It will either be the resurrection of life or the resurrection of condemnation.
Nowhere will you find God condemns a man before birth, that is, before a hearing in Heaven, and before judgement. It is always according to man's evil ways and deeds during his lifetime.
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Aseyesee
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This is the same paradox of soul. God foreknew what would be the outcome of his decision to create, yet did it anyway.
The creation starts out as not only good, but very good, until God sees man alone, and sees this as not good.
As the process of time comes to a tenth from Adam, it says that God became sorry that he created man on the earth, but yet he knew this, which (for God, and us) denotes and intimate unending relationship with what is known, as a truth that was always in himself.
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S.O.J.I.A.
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scripture would represent both of these statements as they do not contradict each other.
by our fallen nature we inherited from adam we proceed to rebel against God. psalms 51:5, psalms 58:3, and psalms 14 speak of man's anthropology. from this anthropology comes the deeds of sin. we bring forth what is within us.
this is why being born again of the Spirit to become the new man is essential to salvation. our anthropology must be changed. when God told adam if he ate the forbidden fruit he would surely die, adam eventually ate the fruit but he didn't drop dead on the spot. there was physical death in that our bodies now decay and die and there was spiritual death which was separation from God and a twisted nature to rebel against him. through Christ's blood the sins of the rebels(who we all are) are washed away and by the Holy Spirit sent by the Father and the Son our nature is changed to the new man that desires to please God with our lives.
this is only for those who have true saving faith and is evidenced by a desire to do good works to God's glory.
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S.O.J.I.A.
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EmSw
White Horse Rider
All those deeds come from an unclean heart.
Mark 7
20 And He said, “What comes out of a man, that defiles a man.
21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
22 thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness.
Ezekiel and James tell us about cleansing the heart.
James 4:8
Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded.
Ezekiel 18:31
Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel?
Do you believe these scriptures to be true?
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S.O.J.I.A.
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I believe all those scriptures and I'm not sure why you believe they refute my position.
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If you're going to ignore what scripture says about our nature in the verses I referenced than I guess so.
Saying that we have no sin nature by pointing out God punishing mankind for their sinful deeds is a non-sequitur.
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fhansen
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So original sin doesn't make us dirty or evil or even guilty- or give us some new "sin nature". Rather it corrupts, weakens, wounds, and sickens. It makes us, even the "best" of us, less than who we are or were created to be.
The world is divided in one sense into those who are not subjugated to or aligned with God/truth/righteousness, and prefer things that way, and those who are struggling to be subjugated to God/truth/righteousness. To the extent that we're subjugated to God in a relationship of love, we are in a state of justice. We are born outside that state, apart from the knowledge of, faith in, hope in, and love for, God. This latter state is called Original Sin, a state of injustice simply because it's out of sync with the order of the universe, with how things are meant to be for man.
While God hates evil/sin, He's not so much angry with man, proven by His act of self-sacrifice on the cross, as much as He's torn, stricken, sorrowed by the plight of His beloved, wayward, Godless creation. He knows what we need to learn for ourselves-just how much we need Him. That's what we're here for-and He's patient and kind in helping us achieve it.
And the predestination vs free will debate only serves to muddy the waters. God's on man's side-always has been- and the cross, especially, proves that point emphatically. Enmity comes from man-not Him-and Jesus came to help us get over it so we may turn back to Him. "They hated Me without reason", He says about humankind's attitude towards Himself and the Father in John 15, echoing Psalms 69. 'Man preferred darkness to light' John also tells us. God's intending to draw us all into the light, whoever will come.
The world is divided in one sense into those who are not subjugated to or aligned with God/truth/righteousness, and prefer things that way, and those who are struggling to be subjugated to God/truth/righteousness. To the extent that we're subjugated to God in a relationship of love, we are in a state of justice. We are born outside that state, apart from the knowledge of, faith in, hope in, and love for, God. This latter state is called Original Sin, a state of injustice simply because it's out of sync with the order of the universe, with how things are meant to be for man.
While God hates evil/sin, He's not so much angry with man, proven by His act of self-sacrifice on the cross, as much as He's torn, stricken, sorrowed by the plight of His beloved, wayward, Godless creation. He knows what we need to learn for ourselves-just how much we need Him. That's what we're here for-and He's patient and kind in helping us achieve it.
And the predestination vs free will debate only serves to muddy the waters. God's on man's side-always has been- and the cross, especially, proves that point emphatically. Enmity comes from man-not Him-and Jesus came to help us get over it so we may turn back to Him. "They hated Me without reason", He says about humankind's attitude towards Himself and the Father in John 15, echoing Psalms 69. 'Man preferred darkness to light' John also tells us. God's intending to draw us all into the light, whoever will come.
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EmSw
White Horse Rider
Here's the problem with your belief of Adam. God, in His majestic glory and sovereignty, created man and it was good. God created everything and called it good. Nothing was amiss. The almighty and all-powerful created man in beauty and wisdom, nothing lacking.
Adam, although created in the image and likeness of God, was nowhere near God in power, knowledge, wisdom, and sovereignty. Yet, man thinks Adam had this power to thwart God's creation. All Adam had to do was disobey and God's sovereignty was tarnished.
Adam was now in control of God's creation. By Adam's treason, every man born hence, was now born in Adam's image and likeness. God's sovereignty was thus proven powerless, weak, and unstable. God no longer made man and called it good; Adam overpowered God with his sin, and mankind was now under Adam's control through his sin.
Thus Adam, became man's high authority. All men were subject to Adam now. Adam's sovereignty now ruled mankind. God would be pushed to the back, while man now controls himself through his new sin nature given to him through Adam. God was now subject to Adam and the new nature he gave mankind. All of God's decisions were now based upon Adam and his new sin nature.
Adam had figured out how to control God and have God repent of ever making man. Adam and his sin was now king of mankind; it would rule every man since Adam.
So now through Adam's betrayal and take over of God's sovereignty for man, God had to react to Adam's treason. God had to defend His sovereignty by waging war with mankind and its power of original sin. Man will gladly admit to his power over God from his inheritance of Adam's sin. What God intended for good, man was not in control. He happily calls Adam's sin his own, thus taking part of Adam's high treason.
This is the rest of the story you won't hear with man's belief of Adam and his original sin.
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S.O.J.I.A.
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I suppose I would see this as an issue if I were an open theist who rejects Isaiah 46:9-10 in believing that God did not preordain all actions and events in time.
it was all part of the LORD's plan of redemption of mankind(genesis 50:19-20, Daniel 4:35, acts 4:27-28, romans 9:19-23). The LORD was just as sovereign over adam falling as he was over job's condition. He was fully in control.
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EmSw
White Horse Rider
Who or what controlled you as a lost sinner? To whom were you a servant? To whomever you serve is your sovereign.
It sounds like Adam's sin ordained all your actions and events. Isn't it true you believe you could do nothing spiritually good from God in your lost state? Adam's sin made you some sort of alien. Why do you not give credit to where it is due? Your lost state in Adam put you in control over God. Adam's sin made you oppose God and His sovereignty and put your sovereignty first.
As Adam's sin reigned in your life, Isaiah 46:9,10 meant nothing to you. You did as you like. Yes, He is God, there is none like Him, and He declared the beginning from the end, but Adam's sin within you made you a god, and there were none like you, and you declared your beginning from your end. You usurped authority from God because of Adam.
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S.O.J.I.A.
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yeah...cool story bro,
this level of cognitive dissonance is too much to overcome. i'm gonna bow out of this one. feel free to have the last word.
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EmSw
White Horse Rider
Oh yeah, I'm staying cool.
Just to be sure, I do not have hold to contradictory beliefs; I do not believe in Adam's original sin has any effect or consequence on any other person. I believe each man is responsible for his own sin, not someone else. Each man has his own original sin.
James 1
14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.
15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
Sin is birthed when one is tempted (like Adam) and carried away and enticed by his own lust (like Adam). If a man does not give in to temptation, there is no sin.
It is only when man's lust is conceived, that sin is birthed (has its origin).
Anyway, have a great day.
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Ron Gurley
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Though Augustine was convinced by the arguments of his earlier patristic peers, he made use of the apostle Paul’s letters, especially the one to the Romans, to develop his own ideas on original sin and guilt. Today, however, it is accepted that Augustine, who had never mastered the Greek language, misread Paul in at least one instance by using an inadequate Latin translation of the Greek original.
In Romans 5, Paul addresses the matter of sin. In verse 12 he states, “Therefore . . . sin came into the world through one man, and death came through sin, and so death spread to all because all have sinned” (NRSV). Later in the chapter, Paul juxtaposes the sin of Adam with the righteousness of Christ: “Just as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous” (Romans 5:19). In contrast to his contemporary theologians, Augustine drew from his reading of these scriptures that sin was passed biologically from Adam to all his descendants through the sexual act itself, thus equating sexual desire with sin. But why should he have reached this interpretation when marital sexual relations in Jewish society at the time of Christ and Paul were considered honorable and good?
Augustine’s outlook on sex was distorted by ideas from the world outside the Bible. Because so much philosophy was based on dualism, in which the physical was categorized as evil but the spiritual as good, some philosophers idealized the celibate state. Sexual relations were physical and therefore evil.
Augustine’s association with Neoplatonic philosophers led him to introduce their outlook within the church. This had its effect in the development of doctrine. For example, Jesus was considered immaculately conceived—without sin in that His Father was God. But because His mother, Mary, had a human father, she suffered the effect of original sin. In order to present Jesus Christ as a perfect offspring without any inherited sin from either parent, the church had to find a way to label Mary as sinless. They did this by devising the doctrine of her immaculate conception, though this inevitably leads to further questions.
Other babies were not so fortunate. Some eight centuries later the Catholic theologian Anselm extended the implications of Augustine’s concept of original sin and claimed that babies who died, did so as sinners; as sinners, they had no access to eternal life but were condemned to eternal damnation.
The Original View of Original Sin
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