Well, there's a lot there that I would agree with. My main point in this thread is to focus on how it is a sermon (around roughly those themes you've mentioned), not a future timetable. If it were a future timetable, what good has it been to the church for the last 2000 years?
4. IT ENDS IN THE GOSPEL HOPE: It starts with the gospel in chapter 1:2 "who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ." It's not a timetable of the future, it's about the gospel! John says so right here. Sure it ends with 3 graphic descriptions of the return of the Lord (from different camera angles, so to speak). But just because Revelation reminds John's generation of the Lord's eventual return in victory and judgement, it does *not* mean the entire book is a timetable of that return. It's an encouragement to John's generation then, not a timetable for us now. If it were about *us* (and every generation thinks they're pretty special!), then the book has been irrelevant and useless to the church for 2000 years. It would almost be like John saying to his suffering generation, "You think the Romans are bad, wait till you see what happens in 2000 years!" It just doesn't make any sense. John said the persecution was starting soon, he already shared in it, and he wanted *them* to *obey* his message. All his instructions in Chapter 1 are impossible if the whole book is about 2000 years later! Instead, we should read it the way the Reformers read it, as Amillennials. We learn from Revelation about suffering today as we think about Christians in North Korea or various Muslim nations. Christians suffering persecution receive this book with great thanksgiving and are encouraged by it, when they understand what it is *really* saying.
For more on this Amillennial perspective, please buy "Apocalypse Now and then" by Dr Paul Barnett. He's a Sydney Anglican Bishop that also taught ancient history for many years in a local university. It's gold! I encourage you to buy a copy on kindle.
The first three Chapters of Revelation are instructions by Jesus on how Christians (represented by the seven churches) are supposed to behave until He Returns. That's what was near and soon - to those churches in Asia Minor - to fit them, on how to behave. And continues right to present.
I truely have no clue where this concept comes from.Many futurists who see Revelation as a timetable for the last generation insist they read it 'literally'. They don't! In their rush to make the book all about them and their generation and their theories about Russia or the Middle East or whatever, they miss the clearest parts of Revelation which actually *are* quite literal. The introduction, the very instruction manual for the book! In Revelation Chapter 1, we'll see 4 key things that mean it was primarily John preparing his generation for serious persecution from the Romans. 4 things!
1. SOON: Revelation 1 shows us that this book was written by John to his generation with a *generic* message about suffering that would break out under Rome but would teach all future generations about obedience to Christ in such terrible situations.
Literally, all these things would “…SOON take place." (Rev 1:1)
"Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is NEAR." (Rev 1:3)
2. OBEY
Note that John wanted his generation to *obey* the message (take it to heart). How do you obey a message all about people 2000 years in the future, and not even about you? You can’t. But John expected *his* generation to *obey* this message, and stay faithful with patient endurance in these times of suffering.
3. *TRIBULATION* started THEN! John shared in it! Rev 1:9 "I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus." (NASB) The tribulation had *already* started, 2000 years ago as the Romans started persecuting the church. Think of the questions early Jewish Christians had at the time. Was the Messiah still going to save Israel from her enemies and kick out the Romans? What was the point of belonging to this 'new Israel', the church, if it didn't guarantee any national or personal security? How were Christians to understand the eventual fall of the temple in AD70? Why was God letting his forgiven people suffer so much? John answers these questions. Revelation is a sermon about suffering, written in rich biblical images. It's like a Marvel Superhero comic with colourful villains we boo and hiss, and a wonderful hero that will most certainly win victory for all. It was written *to* them and specifically *about* them and their suffering. But just as we can read Paul's letters to Ephesus and Corinth and Rome and learn what it means to serve God, we can read this letter to the church suffering Roman persecution and learn.
By teaching John's generation how to suffer under Rome, it also reminds us that our kingdom is eternal, not temporal, spiritual, not political, sometimes poor in this world, but rich in the next. If we listen, and learn the lesson they learned 2000 years ago. If we listen to John we'll be reminded where the *true* temple now is, where true security exists, and how our true home is being prepared. It’s about God calls us to be faithful even when this world asks us to trust in governments and worldly philosophies and riches.
4. IT ENDS IN THE GOSPEL HOPE: It starts with the gospel in chapter 1:2 "who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ." It's not a timetable of the future, it's about the gospel! John says so right here. Sure it ends with 3 graphic descriptions of the return of the Lord (from different camera angles, so to speak). But just because Revelation reminds John's generation of the Lord's eventual return in victory and judgement, it does *not* mean the entire book is a timetable of that return. It's an encouragement to John's generation then, not a timetable for us now. If it were about *us* (and every generation thinks they're pretty special!), then the book has been irrelevant and useless to the church for 2000 years. It would almost be like John saying to his suffering generation, "You think the Romans are bad, wait till you see what happens in 2000 years!" It just doesn't make any sense. John said the persecution was starting soon, he already shared in it, and he wanted *them* to *obey* his message. All his instructions in Chapter 1 are impossible if the whole book is about 2000 years later! Instead, we should read it the way the Reformers read it, as Amillennials. We learn from Revelation about suffering today as we think about Christians in North Korea or various Muslim nations. Christians suffering persecution receive this book with great thanksgiving and are encouraged by it, when they understand what it is *really* saying.
For more on this Amillennial perspective, please buy "Apocalypse Now and then" by Dr Paul Barnett. He's a Sydney Anglican Bishop that also taught ancient history for many years in a local university. It's gold! I encourage you to buy a copy on kindle.
Imminent is good. Every generation has read these same verses and assumed it was going to be in their lifetime. And every generation after we are gone will read the same verses.
That's what you assert. It's not what the text says. John says he shares in their tribulation!
Yeah - but the people are seeing God directly and begging the mountains to fall on him! That's end-of-the-world language there. That's not tribulation - that's judgement day itself! That's the END of all tribulation - for Christians, anyway.
I have to say, I'm less likely to read posts that have weird formatting and olde worlde versions. Try the NIV, and just indenting any bible quotes.
Many futurists who see Revelation as a timetable for the last generation insist they read it 'literally'. They don't! In their rush to make the book all about them and their generation and their theories about Russia or the Middle East or whatever, they miss the clearest parts of Revelation which actually *are* quite literal. The introduction, the very instruction manual for the book! In Revelation Chapter 1, we'll see 4 key things that mean it was primarily John preparing his generation for serious persecution from the Romans. 4 things!
1. SOON: Revelation 1 shows us that this book was written by John to his generation with a *generic* message about suffering that would break out under Rome but would teach all future generations about obedience to Christ in such terrible situations.
Literally, all these things would “…SOON take place." (Rev 1:1)
"Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is NEAR." (Rev 1:3)
2. OBEY
Note that John wanted his generation to *obey* the message (take it to heart). How do you obey a message all about people 2000 years in the future, and not even about you? You can’t. But John expected *his* generation to *obey* this message, and stay faithful with patient endurance in these times of suffering.
3. *TRIBULATION* started THEN! John shared in it! Rev 1:9 "I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus." (NASB) The tribulation had *already* started, 2000 years ago as the Romans started persecuting the church. Think of the questions early Jewish Christians had at the time. Was the Messiah still going to save Israel from her enemies and kick out the Romans? What was the point of belonging to this 'new Israel', the church, if it didn't guarantee any national or personal security? How were Christians to understand the eventual fall of the temple in AD70? Why was God letting his forgiven people suffer so much? John answers these questions. Revelation is a sermon about suffering, written in rich biblical images. It's like a Marvel Superhero comic with colourful villains we boo and hiss, and a wonderful hero that will most certainly win victory for all. It was written *to* them and specifically *about* them and their suffering. But just as we can read Paul's letters to Ephesus and Corinth and Rome and learn what it means to serve God, we can read this letter to the church suffering Roman persecution and learn.
By teaching John's generation how to suffer under Rome, it also reminds us that our kingdom is eternal, not temporal, spiritual, not political, sometimes poor in this world, but rich in the next. If we listen, and learn the lesson they learned 2000 years ago. If we listen to John we'll be reminded where the *true* temple now is, where true security exists, and how our true home is being prepared. It’s about God calls us to be faithful even when this world asks us to trust in governments and worldly philosophies and riches.
4. IT ENDS IN THE GOSPEL HOPE: It starts with the gospel in chapter 1:2 "who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ." It's not a timetable of the future, it's about the gospel! John says so right here. Sure it ends with 3 graphic descriptions of the return of the Lord (from different camera angles, so to speak). But just because Revelation reminds John's generation of the Lord's eventual return in victory and judgement, it does *not* mean the entire book is a timetable of that return. It's an encouragement to John's generation then, not a timetable for us now. If it were about *us* (and every generation thinks they're pretty special!), then the book has been irrelevant and useless to the church for 2000 years. It would almost be like John saying to his suffering generation, "You think the Romans are bad, wait till you see what happens in 2000 years!" It just doesn't make any sense. John said the persecution was starting soon, he already shared in it, and he wanted *them* to *obey* his message. All his instructions in Chapter 1 are impossible if the whole book is about 2000 years later! Instead, we should read it the way the Reformers read it, as Amillennials. We learn from Revelation about suffering today as we think about Christians in North Korea or various Muslim nations. Christians suffering persecution receive this book with great thanksgiving and are encouraged by it, when they understand what it is *really* saying.
For more on this Amillennial perspective, please buy "Apocalypse Now and then" by Dr Paul Barnett. He's a Sydney Anglican Bishop that also taught ancient history for many years in a local university. It's gold! I encourage you to buy a copy on kindle.
Mere assertion contains no data, let alone a coherent argument or proof.
I say it because God says it. It is self evident by the words.
Revelation isn't data. It is the Word of God. Don't cheapen it by some video series mish mash of them who pervert it.
