How to know if you have the Holy spirit..

Was under the impression a special Gift(s) from the Spirit of YHWH to the Apostles was a supernatural Gift. Isn't that how the Apostles knew they had the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit of YHWH with Yeshua being the "mediator/go-between" them and YHWH.

John 14:12-14 (CJB)
12 Yes, indeed! I tell you that whoever trusts in me will also do the works I do! Indeed, he will do greater ones, because I am going to the Father.
13 In fact, whatever you ask for in my name, I will do; so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14 If you ask me for something in my name, I will do it.

When Vis chose not to capitalize "Holy spirit" in the title of this thread she may have intentionally decided that not capitalizing "spirit" was of no significance.
Perhaps, for Open Heart her faith/trust was the key as it is with all Believers in Messiah Yeshua when desiring a special gift/Gift from the Spirit of YHWH. It does seem that Believers have some unique experiences with the Holy Spirit/spirit so we shouldn't be too quick to judge another Believer that doesn't lineup with our theology. Personally, i'm impressed with how Open Heart has stuck it out over the years in this MJ forum holding to her own convictions with the help of the indwelling presence His Spirit.

Open Heart said:


Hebrews 11:6 (CJB)
And without trusting, it is impossible to be well pleasing to God, because whoever approaches Him must trust that He does exist and that He becomes a Rewarder to those who seek Him out.
John 14:6 (CJB)
Yeshua said, “I AM the Way — and the Truth and the Life; no one comes to the Father except through me.

AbbaLove said:

​

Was under the impression a special Gift(s) from the Spirit of YHWH to the Apostles was a supernatural Gift. Isn't that how the Apostles knew they had the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit of YHWH with Yeshua being the "mediator/go-between" them and YHWH.

Click to expand...

Yes, the gifts of the Spirit are supernatural gifts. Yes, the manifestation of the gifts shows the indwelling Holy Spirit.

So, then you might agree that like Open Heart a Believer in Messiah Yeshua can be assured (know) that ... "you have the Holy spirit.." (1 Corinthians 12:7-11).

Being that Vis copied and pasted that excerpt from Merola's blogspot had assumed that perhaps Vis also believed Merola's quote immediately following that pasted excerpt by Maria Merola (#1 post) ...

Even before experiencing tongues of fire and speaking in different languages via the Holy Spirit they apparently believed that Yeshua was the Son of YHWH. Did some of them or possibly all of them also believe Yeshua was YHWH Incarnate (manifested in the flesh as a man)? According to Merola (and others) the sure way to know you have the Spirit of YHWH (e.g. Open Heart) is the evidence of a supernatural Gift with one's belief that you know, that you know YHWH and Yeshua are One (John 10:30). Lit: I and the Father—We are one. Who's to say that the Apostles were mistaken if they believed that Yeshua as the Son of God is also YHWH Incarnate (manifested in the image of YHWH as a man)?

John 10:33
The Judeans replied, “We are not stoning you for any good deed, but for blasphemy — because you, who are only a man, are making yourself out to be God .”[a]
[a] Hebrew: Elohim
John 19:6-7
6 When the head cohanim and the Temple guards saw him they shouted, “Put him to death on the stake! Put him to death on the stake!” Pilate said to them, “You take him out yourselves and put him to death on the stake, because I don’t find any case against him.”
7 The Judeans answered him, “We have a law; according to that law, he ought to be put to death, because he made himself out to be the Son of God.”

Genesis 1:26-27
26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”
27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

AbbaLove said:

​

So, then you might agree that like Open Heart a Believer in Messiah Yeshua can be assured (know) that ... "you have the Holy spirit.." (1 Corinthians 12:7-11).

Click to expand...

Yes, but manifesting a gift of the Holy Spirit is not the only way to know you have the Holy Spirit (Romans 5:5; 1 Corinthians 12:3; 1 John 4:2).

Even before experiencing tongues of fire and speaking in different languages via the Holy Spirit they apparently believed that Yeshua was the Son of YHWH. Did some of them or possibly all of them also believe Yeshua was YHWH Incarnate (manifested in the flesh as a man)?

Click to expand...

None of them believed such a thing.

According to Merola (and others) the sure way to know you have the Spirit of YHWH (e.g. Open Heart) is the evidence of a supernatural Gift with one's belief that you know, that you know YHWH and Yeshua are One (John 10:30). Lit: I and the Father—We are one.

Click to expand...

I believe the Father and Son are one, not in being, but in purpose, unity, etc. Yeshua defined that oneness in John 17:11; John 17:21-22. Believers are to be one in the exact same sense the Father and Son are one. Yet, our oneness does not mean you are me or I am you. We are one in purpose, united together for a common cause.

Who's to say that the Apostles were mistaken if they believed that Yeshua as the Son of God is also YHWH Incarnate (manifested in the image of YHWH as a man)?

Click to expand...

It wasn't the Apostles who were mistaken or not mistaken. It is oneness proponents who are mistaken. They make the Apostles say what they never said or meant.

John 10:33

Click to expand...

The Judeans replied, “We are not stoning you for any good deed, but for blasphemy — because you, who are only a man, are making yourself out to be God .”[a]
[a] Hebrew: Elohim

Click to expand...

If the Jews meant he was making himself out to be Elohim (YHWH), then they were mistaken as they usually were regarding Yeshua. Yeshua corrected them by not only teaching them it was not wrong to apply the word elohim to men (John 10:34-35), but he also corrected them in verse 36 by saying he did not say what they accused him of. He said (not literally, but by implication) that he was the Son of Elohim by referring to Elohim as his Father.

If you read John 10:33-36 the way it was intended (without the English word "God" and using the correct capitalization), you would understand it better.

John 19:6-7

Click to expand...

6 When the head cohanim and the Temple guards saw him they shouted, “Put him to death on the stake! Put him to death on the stake!” Pilate said to them, “You take him out yourselves and put him to death on the stake, because I don’t find any case against him.”
7 The Judeans answered him, “We have a law; according to that law, he ought to be put to death, because he made himself out to be the Son of God.”

Click to expand...

I'm not sure why you quoted this verse. It is true. He was the Son of God (Son of Elohim), not Elohim (God) Himself.

Genesis 1:26-27

Click to expand...

26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”
27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

Click to expand...

This verse teaches the exact opposite of the oneness doctrine. If you believe "us" and "our" refers to the Father and the Son, then you have two beings, one talking to the other. They cannot both be the same being. However, that view is wrong as well. Father YHWH (Elohim) was not talking to the Son, but to the heavenly host who were present at the creation of the earth and man. Elohim was either using the plural of majesty or He was talking in a similar way as we do today. If I was in a room with a bunch of children and said, "Let's (let us) drive to the park," we would all jump in the car, but only I would do "the driving. The fact that verse 27 uses singular pronouns proves only Elohim created man. Why didn't verse 27 just continue the thought with, "So Elohim created man in their own image; in the image of Elohim they created him; male and female they created them."? Why didn't Yeshua say, "And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that [they] which made them at the beginning made them male and female" (Matthew 19:4)? Or, in Mark 10:6, "But from the beginning of the creation [we or I] made them male and female."?

So, why did Vis copy and paste Merola's excerpt in the first place if she doesn't believe that "MarYah" is a correct translation and furthermore that Merola's "Aha" belief (above quote) is blasphemy? Is this another example of how Vis' occasionally stirs up controversy with a post that seems to cause more disunity than unity?
Is Vis saying that Messianic Jews in this Messianic Judaism forum can be non-trinitarians, but someone who refers to himself as a "Judaic Christian" is not allowed to post in this MJ forum as a "non-trinitarian"?


Possibly it's past time for this thread to be closed as the Title of this Thread may be too controversial for this Messianic Judaism forum.

AbbaLove said:

"Being that Vis copied and pasted that excerpt from Merola's blogspot had assumed that perhaps Vis also believed Merola's quote immediately following that pasted excerpt by Maria Merola (#1 post) ..." (posted by AL)
​

So, why did Vis copy and paste Merola's excerpt in the first place if she doesn't believe that "MarYah" is a correct translation and furthermore that Merola's "Aha" belief (above quote) is blasphemy? Is this another example of how Vis' occasionally stirs up controversy with a post that seems to cause more disunity than unity?

​

Is Vis saying that Messianic Jews in this Messianic Judaism forum can be non-trinitarians, but someone who refers to himself as a "Judaic Christian" is not allowed to post in this MJ forum as a "non-trinitarian"?

Click to expand...

Why don't you ask vis all those questions?

Possibly it's past time for this thread to be closed as the Title of this Thread may be too controversial for this Messianic Judaism forum.

Click to expand...

Why close the thread when the truth is being revealed?

visionary said:

Controversial thread, solidify positions, thus are good to review, confirm and revisit.

Click to expand...

gadar perets said:

Why don't you ask vis all those questions?

Click to expand...

You mean like WHY did vis copy/paste (#1) from that non-trinitarian blogspot entitled "The Oneness of the Father & the Son versus Trinitarianism"
when she finds portions (see highlighted blue portion) to be "CF blasphemy" being counter to the belief of a trinitarian. Immediately following her #1 copy/paste post (shown below in bold black) which is "spurious"

Subsequently (not until into the third page of this thread) does vis say that blogspot from which she copied/pasted (post #1) contains "CF blasphemy" ...

visionary said:

that is CF blasphemy and not allowed to exist... This is a trinitarian forum.

Click to expand...

visionary said:

Controversial thread, solidify positions, thus are good to review, confirm and revisit.

Click to expand...

So, then you (vis) believe that this Messsianic Judaism forum "is a trinitarian forum" and believe (The Father Is Not Son and The Son Is Not The Father) is trinitarianism; while gadar perets still lists himself as a "Non-Trinitarian" member of this Messianic Judaism forum.

This is one of several diagrams that represent what you refer to as "this is a trinitarian forum" If you (vis) don't believe this diagram or other trinitarian diagrams adequately represents this "trinitarian forum" please post another diagram to your liking. gadar perets agrees that The FATHER IS NOT The Son and The Son IS NOT The FATHER; and yet it appears his faith is shown as "Non-Trinitarian"

How does all this "solidify positions, thus good to review, confirm and revisit" when you copy and paste a portion of a blogspot that you don't believe (spurious) and even moreso when it is immediately followed by a quote (blue highlighted) that you believe to be "CF blasphemy"

Why didn't you just provide a link to Merola's blogspot and copy/paste the following quote shown below into your #1 post to "solidify" the belief among Messianic members of this forum that such thinking is ... "CF blasphemy and not allowed to exist... This is a trinitarian forum"... (The FATHER IS NOT The Son and The Son IS NOT The FATHER)

AbbaLove said:

gadar perets agrees that The FATHER IS NOT The Son and The Son IS NOT The FATHER; and yet it appears his faith is shown as "Non-Trinitarian"

Click to expand...

I am a non-trinitarian because 1) I do not believe the Holy Spirit is a "third person" 2) I do not believe the Son is equal to the Father 3) I do not believe the Son is co-eternal with the Father and 4) I do not believe the supposed three equal the one God.

In the years that i've been posting in this MJ forum, first as a "Christian" and more recently as a "Messianic"--when the language of the current SOP was revised. Would now (for the first time) like to share my thoughts (FWIW) with respect to vis' comment "this is a trinitarian forum" ...

It's been my observation that CF makes allowances in this Messianic Judaism forum for Messianic Jews and Judaism in general because of the Great Sgnificance of Shema within Judaism.


FWIW, Fear Not even if you may get an occasional warning for expressing too much disfavor with the doctrine of trinitarianism in this "trinitarian forum". It's my own belief that CF won't ban a knowledgeable Messianic Jew like yourself from this MJ forum for your "Non-Trinitarian" faith.

Such an action by CF could discourage secular, reform and orthodox Jews from posting in this MJ forum when an MJ (like yourself) may plant a seed that someday results in a Jewish man or woman accepting Yeshua as the Lamb of YHWH and Son of YHWH.

Many Jews still think that Jesus is Catholic when he was of Jewish birth, circumcised on the eighth day and was Torah Observant

visionary said:

1st Corinthians 12:3 (KJV) Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Whenever I would read this verse, I would say to myself “So all I have to do is say that ‘Yeshua is Lord,’ and Voile! This is proof that I have the Holy Spirit?” Too simplistic... there has to be more to this than just saying "Yeshua is the Lord"

The Aramaic Peshitta reveals something that we cannot see in the King James Version:

1st Qorinthiym (Corinthians) 12:3 (Aramaic Peshitta) Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of Elohiym says Yahuwshuwa is a curse, and no one is able to say that Yahuwshuwa is Master YHWH except by the Ruwach ha’Qodesh (Holy Spirit).

Click to expand...

We are told by John in Revelation that Jesus is the spirit of prophecy:

"And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."
-Revelation 19:10

This makes sense to me what you wrote.

You guys need to deal with the apparent dichotomy that Yeshua was born into this world, miraculously, as a human being, walked this earth as a human being (Philippians 2). That he died a human being's death on the cross (as the Son of Man). Other Bible characters have the same characteristics in the Tanach and in the Christian Testament.

That said, he was also the Son of God, who came into the world miraculously, who laid down his G_dliness to experience life as we know it, even to death on a cross. He persevered through almost every human emotion, including but not limited to, the abuse and pain of death in his last days on earth. Having laid down his human life on the cross, when he died a human death, he took back his life as the Son of G_d when he rose again, and appeared back on earth to his disciples, and hundreds of others, before departing this earth and granting us the power to overcome the world, through the giving of the Spirit, promised by G_d. It really doesn't help when we get people saying, or singing, about Jesus being in our hearts - scripture would beg to differ with that vie; many hymns / songs, confuse the situation, no end!

The Spirit was NOT restricted to the Christian Testament - that was a once for all giving of the Spirit, which passes on to those to whom G_d chooses to give it. It is not a right that anyone can claim, like benefits from the public purse. The same Spirit was available in the Tanach, so he should not be new to Jew or Christian - if you reject him in the Tanach you must then reject him in the Christian Testament, and vice versa.

The use of terms such as 'Father, Son, Spirit', with G_d having 'arms, legs, head' etc, does not really lend much to our understanding of G_d; they are, really, just attributes that allow us to cope with beginning to understand him. We must not let these anthropological aids (which, though used in scripture, are still aids) mis-direct how we perceive G_d in all his fullness. Terms such as 'Son of ...' are also aids in our ability to think beyond the purely human levels we are used to. Paul struggled with this in Ephesians, and came up with not just 3D, but 4D - an extra dimension!

Therefore the Sh'ma is correct, but so also is the Christian Testament - both use anthropological aids in exactly the same way, except that in the Tanach those who were born miraculously, or who did not die, or those who spoke from the dead, did not claim to be sons of G_d, but how then does one explain the miraculous births in the Tanach, if they are not because of the will of G_d, and not by the decision of man; are they not, then, also sons of G_d? How does the Tanach explain the future resurrection of humans? Semantics, or theology? How does the Tanach explain the sons of God in Genesis 6 - were they sons of God(s) and were their off-spring not sons of God(s)? How many Gods were around at the time?

As Scripture says: there is nothing new under the sun.



PS for the purists - Spirit, above means the Ruach HaKodesh.

Heber Book List said:

That said, he was also the Son of God, who came into the world miraculously, who laid down his G_dliness to experience life as we know it, even to death on a cross.

Click to expand...

Yes, he was the Son of God, but not God Himself. He did not lay down his "G_dliness". We can't have it both ways. We can't say he laid down his G_dliness and also say he forgave sins, healed the sick, and raised the dead because he was God. He began his literal existence in the womb when his Father's spoken words and thoughts (logos) became flesh.

Having laid down his human life on the cross, when he died a human death, he took back his life as the Son of G_d when he rose again, and appeared back on earth to his disciples, and hundreds of others, before departing this earth and granting us the power to overcome the world, through the giving of the Spirit, promised by G_d.

Click to expand...

Concerning the phrase I put in bold, are you saying he was not the Son of God while he was a man? John 10:36, John 11:4 and others teach otherwise.

It really doesn't help when we get people saying, or singing, about Jesus being in our hearts - scripture would beg to differ with that vie; many hymns / songs, confuse the situation, no end!

Click to expand...

What do you do with Colossians 1:27; Colossians 3:11; Romans 8:10; Galatians 2:20; Galatians 4:19; and Ephesians 3:17?

The Spirit was NOT restricted to the Christian Testament - that was a once for all giving of the Spirit, which passes on to those to whom G_d chooses to give it. It is not a right that anyone can claim, like benefits from the public purse. The same Spirit was available in the Tanach, so he should not be new to Jew or Christian - if you reject him in the Tanach you must then reject him in the Christian Testament, and vice versa.

Click to expand...

I agree for the most part, but the indwelling Spirit in the NT is somewhat different. It indwelled only a select few, but indwells all believers in Messiah that ask for it (Luke 11:13).

gadar perets said:

We can't have it both ways. We can't say he laid down his G_dliness and also say he forgave sins, healed the sick, and raised the dead because he was God.

Click to expand...

He did lay down His g-dliness. Those other functions, were NOT done by His own intrinsic deity, but rather by relying on the power of the Holy Spirit.

Don't forget that He told US to also forgive sins, heal the sick and raise the dead.

And the last time I checked, neither you or I had any claim at being divine.

gadar perets said:

Yes, he was the Son of God, but not God Himself. He did not lay down his "G_dliness". We can't have it both ways. We can't say he laid down his G_dliness and also say he forgave sins, healed the sick, and raised the dead because he was God. He began his literal existence in the womb when his Father's spoken words and thoughts (logos) became flesh.


Concerning the phrase I put in bold, are you saying he was not the Son of God while he was a man? John 10:36, John 11:4 and others teach otherwise.


What do you do with Colossians 1:27; Colossians 3:11; Romans 8:10; Galatians 2:20; Galatians 4:19; and Ephesians 3:17?


I agree for the most part, but the indwelling Spirit in the NT is somewhat different. It indwelled only a select few, but indwells all believers in Messiah that ask for it (Luke 11:13).

Click to expand...

Forgive me, but I do not think you really understand Christian theology.

Yeshua didn't say he was G_d, he said that he and the Father (G_d) are [as] one, as we might claim today, because we strive to be more like him; indeed some people think 'Jesus lives within us', as I have said previously. That is wrong - the Spirit of Yeshua lives in us... if we have the Spirit. The actions and miracles etc that you mention, were NOT because he was G_d, they were by the power of the Spirit upon him as a human; we see the same thing happening today but we do not claim that the person through whom G_d works IS G_d, do we? Do they claim to be G_d - no! Yeshua passed onto us, the Spirit with which G_d had endowed him; the very same Spirit by whom these miracles are done by those obey G_d. That Spirit can live in us to enable us to do G_d's will all around the globe, whereas Yeshua was limited to Israel, as was, then.

Whilst he walked this earth he maintained his G_dliness, but set it aside to be like one of us, to prove to us that we can actually be sinless and obedient to G_d in every way; I can lay aside my professional life and be someone else entirely, but I would continue to be a professional. Moses and others in the Tanach had conversations with G_d - some claim to have seen him, not least in the garden! What is so odd about a G_d who spent several millennia leading his chosen people through the desert, and got not very far, in the long run, with them, or after, to want to show us, in bodily form, that which he requires can be achieved by man? Shlomo said that G_d cannot be contained in a building, but David thought G_d was in the ark! As I said you have to lose this anthropological stuff when you are thinking seriously about G_d. He is the first and the last, before creation and after this world ends. He can do what millions of people in the past, and in this day, have thought totally impossible - why should he be like man and give up a habit of a life time (so to speak). Would you dare to limit El Shaddai to your poor reach of mind (to quote a hymn writer)?

If he cannot lay aside his G_dliness, to be like one of us, temporarily, please explain the miracles in the Tanach - a miracle is a miracle, is miracle. In the Tanach, as I pointed out, people were born miraculously, and didn't die, are expected to return from the 'dead', and Messiah is yet to come - looking like man, or a Spirit?

Colossians 1:27; Colossians 3:11; Romans 8:10; Galatians 2:20; Galatians 4:19; and Ephesians 3:17 - Read a decent translation . Try The Complete Jewish Bible by David Stern to re-read these texts in a Jewish context. I see no problem in any of them with what I have said. Do you have trouble with Philippians 2?

Dave-W said:

He did lay down His g-dliness. Those other functions, were NOT done by His own intrinsic deity, but rather by relying on the power of the Holy Spirit.

Don't forget that He told US to also forgive sins, heal the sick and raise the dead.

And the last time I checked, neither you or I had any claim at being divine.

Click to expand...

I agree concerning the Holy Spirit, but that is not what the majority of Christians say. They believe he did those miracles because he was 100% God. Even Messianic Jews on this forum believe such. In fact, the orthodox position of the Church from the 4th/5th century councils until the 19th century was that Christ was fully God and fully man at the same time in one body (hypostatic union). This doctrine is known as the “dual nature of Christ.” It is still held today by many.