Eternal Torment, Annihilation or Universal Reconciliation?

Der Alter said:

No one, I, you, some guy walking down the street possesses personal knowledge of what happens after death, since nobody has been there and back.
.....But having said that there are three accounts in the Bible which describes men who have died who are in Sheol in the OT, Hades in the NT speaking, having emotions etc. In two of those accounts, Isa 14 and Jer 32, God, Himself is speaking. In the third Luk 16, Jesus is speaking.
.....I have no personal knowledge of what happens after death but I know what God and Jesus said in the recorded accounts. There is nothing in any of those accounts which indicates that the accounts are not factual. Since no one has died and returned no one has any basis for claiming that the three accounts are parables or whatever. That is what I know about what happens after death. I'm quite sure you knew this is what I meant from the start and all of this has been nothing but argumentative games.

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My husband who was a professing atheist and frothed at the mouth if God was mentioned had an experience that left him in total KNOWING their is God/Jesus Christ. He had a very bad (massive) heart attack. When the paramedics arrived, they found no pulse or heart beat. My husband later told me (with tears streaming down his cheeks) that something happened that day. He said he felt surrounded by such a great peace and LOVE and he KNEW it was God. He said Jesus spoke to him and told him he was going to be okay.

Even now, when my husband speaks of this near death revelation from God Himself, he weeps and speaks about repenting and KNOWING both The Father and the son...and no man revealed these to him.

Butch5 said:

No, we're not spirit beings. That's Greek philosophy and Gnosticism. Man is a physical being. As God said to Adam, 'dust thou art and to dust thou shall return." There is nothing in Scripture that teaches that man is a spirit being.

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To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect ...

The Bible teaches we are gods ... which was what Jesus used to defend the idea that he was the son of God.

PeaceJoyLove said:

My husband who was a professing atheist and frothed at the mouth if God was mentioned had an experience that left him in total KNOWING their is God/Jesus Christ. He had a very bad (massive) heart attack. When the paramedics arrived, they found no pulse or heart beat. My husband later told me (with tears streaming down his cheeks) that something happened that day. He said he felt surrounded by such a great peace and LOVE and he KNEW it was God. He said Jesus spoke to him and told him he was going to be okay.

Even now, when my husband speaks of this near death revelation from God Himself, he weeps and speaks about repenting and KNOWING both The Father and the son...and no man revealed these to him.

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I know a few dead and back again as well ... (one clinically dead twice), who have the same testimony.

Butch5 said:

Her spirit is the breath of life that God gives to each person. Note Gen 2:7. God created man from the dust of the earth. He breathed into him the breath of life

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and man became a living soul ...

Butch5 said:

for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. (Lk. 24:37-39 KJV)

Jesus' own words, a spirit does not have flesh and bone. Therefore man cannot be a spirit.

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Flesh and bones are the vessel/jar/container...and the dwelling place of God is with man 'temple not made with human hands'.

What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

And so, the flesh/blood is the place where the spirit lives/dwells. Two things. The bodies that were dead, yet their spirits were not dead...left the body behind. The spirit is what hears God/Christ...not the house/dwelling place.

PeaceJoyLove said:

Who said 'other spirit'? No one here that I've read...Our new LIFE comes from the Holy Spirit from God...which hears Jesus voice...the flesh cannot hear it. The spirit that went back into the body of of Lazarus and the girl...is the same spirit of which we have been speaking...that comes from God...and the only way we can HEAR the things of/from God is that same spirit ALIVE within. That is what heard Jesus voice...and returned to the dead body...though the spirit lives.

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That spirit is the breath of life. It's a consciousness that is apart from the body. Show me Where Scripture teaches that man lives on apart from the Body.

PeaceJoyLove said:

Flesh and bones are the vessel/jar/container...and the dwelling place of God is with man 'temple not made with human hands'.

What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

And so, the flesh/blood is the place where the spirit lives/dwells. Two things. The bodies that were dead, yet their spirits were not dead...left the body behind. The spirit is what hears God/Christ...not the house/dwelling place.

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Are you aware that this passage use a plural second person pronoun. The word "your" is plural. He addressing a group. What body is he addressing the body of Christ at the church in Corinth. "Your body" here in this context could very easily refer to the church in Corinth. Therefore the passage cannot be used as proof of your claim since it can mean something else.

However, as I stated before. The premise flawed. Show me Scripture that teaches that man can live apart from the body. That is the premise of your argument. If you can't prove your premise then your argument is nothing more that opinion and speculation. So, let prove your premise before jumping all over the place.

Butch5 said:

I'm not the one arguing against Scripture. You trust your own understanding of the word of God. Just because you understand the word of God a certain way doesn't mean it's correct. That your understanding is n conflict with other passages of Scripture indicates to me that your understanding is incorrect.

Here's just one passage that your belief is in conflict with. David was a prophet and said,

3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.1
4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. (Ps. 146:3-4 KJV)

It's not possible to be alive and conscious when one thoughts have perished.

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While you accuse me of not understanding; it is obvious you are without understanding.

The body comes from the earth, the dead body returns to the earth.

The living soul comes from God, the living soul returns to God, when the body dies...
....God sends that living soul to the place He has prepared for living souls;
....Living souls that believe in Him, go to Him in heaven.
....Living souls that do not believe in Him, go separated from Him, to hell.

A born again spirit, comes from the Seed of God, the born again spirit, becomes forever ALIVE and returns to God, forever alive; when the body dies.

The body has thoughts. The body dies. The body no longer has thoughts or feelings or senses.

The living soul has thoughts and senses/ feelings. The living soul continues having life, thoughts and senses/feelings; whether or not it is WITH God, or separated FROM God.

The living spirit has thoughts and senses/ feeling. The living spirit that is made born again, continues in having live, thoughts, feelings, senses, when his body dies, and is forever WITH the Lord.

It is mankind's WHOLENESS, that is corrupt.
It is mankind's WHOLENESS, that is required to become changed.

the Body is set aside to become made CHANGED (later, with ALL believers gathered together, at an appointed time according to Gods desire.)

the Living soul is RESTORED, while still IN a physically corrupt Body,

the Natural spirit becomes a born again spirit, with Gods Seed, while that Natural spirit still IN a physically corrupt Body.

the Natural spirit then exists in a NEW HEART, that God gives the man, whom God is making WHOLE.

the BODY is still a physically living body (physically living in its same flesh), because of its own life, which is it's BLOOD.....(but yet that body GOD has set aside and He has accounted THAT body, as Cleansed, Washed, Forgiven, acceptable to Him, to be called Sanctified, and Redeemable, and appointed to become taken by God and CHANGED into a Glorious Holy Body.)

Scripture is clear; the WHOLE of every individual man of mankind has become corrupt.
Scripture is clear; the WHOLE of a man must become changed.
Scripture is clear; it is the TRUTH (natural spirit of a man, in a mans natural heart), that must confess the belief of his natural spirit (truth), for the whole of the man to become restored, quickened and changed; for the WHOLE of a man to be made WHOLE, and thus is called WHOLE.

And that "the WHOLE of man" is what becomes a restored soul, a born again spirit, a new heart, an accounted changed body; that is acceptable to God; to be called forever alive and is that which sins no more. BECAUSE of a mans truthful (truth in his heart), confession of Faith in God.

1Thes.5

1. [23] And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Ezek.18
[31] Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit:

Ezek.36
[26] A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you:

Pss.23
[3] He restoreth my soul:

Phil.3
[21] Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body,

Rom.6
[13] .... but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God

God Bless,
SBC

Aseyesee said:

and man became a living soul ...

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Yes, after receiving the breath/spirit of life.

Aseyesee said:

To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect ...

The Bible teaches we are gods ... which was what Jesus used to defend the idea that he was the son of God.

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What's your point?

Aseyesee said:

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice ...

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You still haven't explained how a dead person can hear. We know that God is gong to raise the dead so yes everyone who in now in the grave will hear his voice when that time comes.

Butch5 said:

That spirit is the breath of life. It's a consciousness that is apart from the body. Show me Where Scripture teaches that man lives on apart from the Body.

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Man is man and spirit is spirit. It is the spirit which lives. I have given you several scriptures along these lines.

Again, how were the bodies of Lazarus and the girl able to come to life, again? It is not the flesh and blood that receives LIFE from Christ, but what is contained (spirit) within...just like the Kingdom of Heaven is within...just as Jesus spoke to the Pharisees about washing the outside of the cup while the inside was filthy...

So, you believe when you physically die, that's it? The spirit that Jesus says dwells within us (earthen vessels), what happens to it? Where does it go?

PeaceJoyLove said:

Jesus body rose from the grave...doubting Thomas touched it to see that it was really HIM. The body is the earthen vessel the spirit lives within. Was Jesus body found left behind in the tomb or were his grave clothes found folded up and left behind?

You are so right. "Man" (First Adam) does not live by the spirit. He is asleep, dead in sin living by his own mind and not the Spirit of Christ. When we awaken to the spirit alive within (our body/shell/personage - who we think we are) we still a body in which the spirit dwells.

Romans 8:9 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Romans 8:11 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

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That's not what Scripture says, it is the breath/spirit that give life to the Body. Scripture doesn't say that the spirit lives in the body. The spirit is "NOT" the person. It is something from God and it returns to Him when the man dies.

Butch5 said:

That spirit is the breath of life. It's a consciousness that is apart from the body. Show me Where Scripture teaches that man lives on apart from the Body.

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Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

1Pe 3:18-20 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Duplicate ...

Butch5 said:

That spirit is the breath of life. It's a consciousness that is apart from the body. Show me Where Scripture teaches that man lives on apart from the Body.

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Luke 16
[19] There was a certain rich man
[22] ... the rich man ... died, and was buried;
[23] And in hell....
[24] And he cried and said...

How do you account that a dead and buried man is ALSO in hell speaking?

And if you continue reading; that dead and buried man is ALSO hearing, feeling, seeing.

How do you account that a dead and buried man in a GRAVE is ALSO IN Hell and ALSO experiencing such senses?

God Bless,
SBC

SBC said:

While you accuse me of not understanding; it is obvious you are without understanding.

The body comes from the earth, the dead body returns to the earth.

The living soul comes from God, the living soul returns to God, when the body dies...
....God sends that living soul to the place He has prepared for living souls;
....Living souls that believe in Him, go to Him in heaven.
....Living souls that do not believe in Him, go separated from Him, to hell.

A born again spirit, comes from the Seed of God, the born again spirit, becomes forever ALIVE and returns to God, forever alive; when the body dies.

The body has thoughts. The body dies. The body no longer has thoughts or feelings or senses.

The living soul has thoughts and senses/ feelings. The living soul continues having life, thoughts and senses/feelings; whether or not it is WITH God, or separated FROM God.

The living spirit has thoughts and senses/ feeling. The living spirit that is made born again, continues in having live, thoughts, feelings, senses, when his body dies, and is forever WITH the Lord.

It is mankind's WHOLENESS, that is corrupt.
It is mankind's WHOLENESS, that is required to become changed.

the Body is set aside to become made CHANGED (later, with ALL believers gathered together, at an appointed time according to Gods desire.)

the Living soul is RESTORED, while still IN a physically corrupt Body,

the Natural spirit becomes a born again spirit, with Gods Seed, while that Natural spirit still IN a physically corrupt Body.

the Natural spirit then exists in a NEW HEART, that God gives the man, whom God is making WHOLE.

the BODY is still a physically living body (physically living in its same flesh), because of its own life, which is it's BLOOD.....(but yet that body GOD has set aside and He has accounted THAT body, as Cleansed, Washed, Forgiven, acceptable to Him, to be called Sanctified, and Redeemable, and appointed to become taken by God and CHANGED into a Glorious Holy Body.)

Scripture is clear; the WHOLE of every individual man of mankind has become corrupt.
Scripture is clear; the WHOLE of a man must become changed.
Scripture is clear; it is the TRUTH (natural spirit of a man, in a mans natural heart), that must confess the belief of his natural spirit (truth), for the whole of the man to become restored, quickened and changed; for the WHOLE of a man to be made WHOLE, and thus is called WHOLE.

And that "the WHOLE of man" is what becomes a restored soul, a born again spirit, a new heart, an accounted changed body; that is acceptable to God; to be called forever alive and is that which sins no more. BECAUSE of a mans truthful (truth in his heart), confession of Faith in God.

1Thes.5

1. [23] And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Ezek.18
[31] Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit:

Ezek.36
[26] A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you:

Pss.23
[3] He restoreth my soul:

Phil.3
[21] Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body,

Rom.6
[13] .... but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God

God Bless,
SBC

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Firstly this doesn't address what I said. I said you rely on your understanding.

You keep repeating the same thing as if it'll be true if repeated enough. Again, God did not breath a living soul into man and a living soul doesn't return to God. God breathed the breath/spirit of life into man and that is what returns to him at death.

Butch5 said:

You still haven't explained how a dead person can hear. We know that God is gong to raise the dead so yes everyone who in now in the grave will hear his voice when that time comes.

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Was Jesus lying? Today in paradise ...

Aseyesee said:

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

1Pe 3:18-20 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

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Also Moses and Elijah appearing at Christ's transfiguration (Matthew 17:1-9)

SBC said:

Luke 16
[19] There was a certain rich man
[22] ... the rich man ... died, and was buried;
[23] And in hell....
[24] And he cried and said...

How do you account that a dead and buried man is ALSO in hell speaking?

And if you continue reading; that dead and buried man is ALSO hearing, feeling, seeing.

How do you account that a dead and buried man in a GRAVE is ALSO IN Hell and ALSO experiencing such senses?

God Bless,


SBC

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Simple, it's a parable. The meaning isn't even about life after death.