The Difference Between the Rapture of the Church and the Second Coming of Christ

Marilyn C

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Are the 12 Apostles, Paul, and others such as Timothy and Titus the Bride of Christ or the Body of Christ?

Hi Hank,

That is a very good question. I will tell you what I have been taught and see from scripture. A big topic -Body of Christ and the `Bride.` Now there is no such symbol, (bride) used for the Body of Christ. Masculine Head over a male body - one new Man. (Eph. 2: 15) Here is a quick summary.

The symbol `bride,` & wife, is used by God to show His relationship to Israel. (Isa. 54: 5, & Hosea 2: 19 etc) (Time purpose)

Then the symbol of the `bride,` is used for an eternal purpose, the New Jerusalem, the city which comes down out of heaven from God. (Rev. 21: 2) This symbol is used to show that this rulership in the city is connected to the rulership in the third heaven, (the Body of Christ). Together with Christ we rule over God`s great kingdom, (under the Father.) One group, from the highest heavens, the others from the lower heavens.

The term the `body of Christ` reveals the closest of relationships - Head & Body, interconnected.

As to your question, Jesus tells the 12 disciples that they will rule over the 12 tribes of Israel. (Matt. 19: 28). We are shown this in Rev. 21: 14 where the 12 disciples are in the city.

Note that God`s word distinguishes between the 12 disciples who walked with the Lord, pre-cross, and those who were given by the Lord when He ascended, called the ascension ministries. (Eph. 4: 9 - 13) These are specifically for the equipping of the saints, building up the Body of Christ so we wont be `tossed to & fro.`

regards, Marilyn.
 
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Hank77

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As to your question, Jesus tells the 12 disciples that they will rule over the 12 tribes of Israel. (Matt. 19: 28). We are shown this in Rev. 21: 14 where the 12 disciples are in the city.

Note that God`s word distinguishes between the 12 disciples who walked with the Lord, pre-cross, and those who were given by the Lord when He ascended, called the ascension ministries. (Eph. 4: 9 - 13) These are specifically for the equipping of the saints, building up the Body of Christ so we wont be `tossed to & fro.`
Sorry I don't think you answered my question.
Are you saying that everyone on my list are the Body of Christ?
Or are you saying the pre-cross 12 are the Bride and the rest are the Body of Christ?
 
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BABerean2

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And your scripture/s to back that statement up?

Marilyn.

Heb 11:12  Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born as many as the stars of the sky in multitude—innumerable as the sand which is by the seashore. 
Heb 11:13  These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 
Heb 11:14  For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. 
Heb 11:15  And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. 
Heb 11:16  But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them. 
Heb 11:17  By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

 
Heb 12:22  But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 
Heb 12:23  to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 
Heb 12:24  to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel. 


Gal 4:25  for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— 
Gal 4:26  but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. 


.
 
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claninja

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Hi Hank,

That is a very good question. I will tell you what I have been taught and see from scripture. A big topic -Body of Christ and the `Bride.` Now there is no such symbol, (bride) used for the Body of Christ. Masculine Head over a male body - one new Man. (Eph. 2: 15) Here is a quick summary.

The symbol `bride,` & wife, is used by God to show His relationship to Israel. (Isa. 54: 5, & Hosea 2: 19 etc) (Time purpose)

Then the symbol of the `bride,` is used for an eternal purpose, the New Jerusalem, the city which comes down out of heaven from God. (Rev. 21: 2) This symbol is used to show that this rulership in the city is connected to the rulership in the third heaven, (the Body of Christ). Together with Christ we rule over God`s great kingdom, (under the Father.) One group, from the highest heavens, the others from the lower heavens.

The term the `body of Christ` reveals the closest of relationships - Head & Body, interconnected.

As to your question, Jesus tells the 12 disciples that they will rule over the 12 tribes of Israel. (Matt. 19: 28). We are shown this in Rev. 21: 14 where the 12 disciples are in the city.

Note that God`s word distinguishes between the 12 disciples who walked with the Lord, pre-cross, and those who were given by the Lord when He ascended, called the ascension ministries. (Eph. 4: 9 - 13) These are specifically for the equipping of the saints, building up the Body of Christ so we wont be `tossed to & fro.`

regards, Marilyn.

Hi Marilyn,
Thank you for this write up, it is very informative. I do, however, believe that marriage is a representation of Christ and the church. Paul reveals that the mystery of the husband and wife becoming 1 flesh is an illustration to represent Christ and the church. As the bridegroom marries the bride and the 2 become 1 flesh, so too Christ
(bridegroom) has married the church (bride) and and the church becomes the body of Christ ( 1 flesh).

Ephesians 5:31-32 “Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church.
 
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claninja

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Then the symbol of the `bride,` is used for an eternal purpose, the New Jerusalem, the city which comes down out of heaven from God. (Rev. 21: 2) This symbol is used to show that this rulership in the city is connected to the rulership in the third heaven, (the Body of Christ). Together with Christ we rule over God`s great kingdom, (under the Father.) One group, from the highest heavens, the others from the lower heavens.

Here is how I read revelation 21.

Revelation 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.

Christ said that : Matthew 5:18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

However, the author of Hebrews states there was a change in he law when Christ became the eternal high priest: Hebrews 7:12 For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well.

So I don't view the old heaven and earth passing away as literall, but as symbolic for the old covenant. Same for the new heavens and earth.

Revelation 21:2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

As I stated previously, the bride of Christ is the church and the 2 are 1 flesh (Christ the head, the church is the body)
Ephesians 5:31-32 “Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church.

Hebrews 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering,


Revelation 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God.

God is dwelling among his believers now. Ephesians 2:22 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.

Revelation 21:4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”

We have a God, who we can call father, that can wipe away our tears and who can bear our sorrows, who has promised us life from the dead. He has made us anew and our old selves have gone. We are a new creation in the body of Christ. And it is glorious and all praise and worship is to the Father for what he has done!

Psalm 116:8 For you have delivered my soul from death, my eyes from tears, my feet from stumbling;

Isaiah 53:4 Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted.

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.
 
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Marilyn C

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Sorry I don't think you answered my question.
Are you saying that everyone on my list are the Body of Christ?
Or are you saying the pre-cross 12 are the Bride and the rest are the Body of Christ?

Hi Hank,

Sorry if I wasn`t clear enough I what I believed. Will try again. Now you asked -

Are the 12 Apostles, Paul, and others such as Timothy and Titus the Bride of Christ or the Body of Christ?

Firstly there is no phrase in God`s word, `the Bride of Christ.`

The 12 disciples, as God`s word says will rule in the New Jerusalem, described as a bride.

The Apostles, Paul, Timothy, Titus, etc are ascension Apostles. They are specifically given by the Lord when He ascended to the Father. They are His ministries, (of His 5 fold offices which He has Himself). He is the great Apostle, the Prophet, the Shepherd, the teacher, the evangel. All these aspects of our Lord are needed to equip the Body of Christ and help bring it to maturity by the Holy Spirit.

Note when I say `ministries,` I am not referring to people with man`s qualifications behind pulpits etc. They are working throughout the world in the highlands, on the streets, wherever the Lord sends them, to equip others to build up the Body of Christ.

Marilyn.




 
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Marilyn C

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Heb 11:12  Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born as many as the stars of the sky in multitude—innumerable as the sand which is by the seashore. 
Heb 11:13  These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 
Heb 11:14  For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. 
Heb 11:15  And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. 
Heb 11:16  But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them. 
Heb 11:17  By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

 
Heb 12:22  But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 
Heb 12:23  to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 
Heb 12:24  to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel. 


Gal 4:25  for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— 
Gal 4:26  but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. 

Hi BABerean,

Just the right scriptures there, bro. Great. So we agree that the OT saints were promised the city and looked for it, rather than settle for the earthly promised land. We see they are waiting in the general Assembly for their reward - `the spirits of just men (& women).` (Heb. 11: 23)

Now to Galatians 4 and Jerusalem below and above. When we think of Jerusalem we mainly just think of the `city.` However in God`s word Jerusalem also includes the mountains. The greatest of these is Mount Zion. That is the place of rulership.

Now looking at the heavenly Jerusalem, we see there is Mount Zion and the city. The two important aspects. We know that the OT saints are waiting for the city & in the New Heavens and New Earth time it will come down out of heaven from God to the lower heavens. This is the New Jerusalem with the OT saints.

Note however that Mount Zion does NOT come down. It represents the rulership in the highest of God`s realms. This has been promised to the Body of Christ and it is there we will rule and reign with Christ.

So we have Mount Zion in the highest place, and the city further down. This is how it is on earth, (the representation of what will be in the heavens). These two, (in the 3rd heaven & those lower down) will together rule over God`s great kingdom.

Marilyn.
 
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Marilyn C

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Hi Marilyn,
Thank you for this write up, it is very informative. I do, however, believe that marriage is a representation of Christ and the church. Paul reveals that the mystery of the husband and wife becoming 1 flesh is an illustration to represent Christ and the church. As the bridegroom marries the bride and the 2 become 1 flesh, so too Christ
(bridegroom) has married the church (bride) and and the church becomes the body of Christ ( 1 flesh).

Ephesians 5:31-32 “Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church.

Hi claninja,

Now I was never taught that, but I can understand why you would think so. It also has been taught for so long without any real doctrinal basis, and really just accepted. I see women, especially, being very emotional about this topic, so do not want to upset anyone. We know that the Lord`s Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth, so we just continue on with Him, as he leads us.

I do have some thoughts you may like to ponder.

In the Apostle Paul`s letter to the Ephesians He is presenting doctrine to them, specific teaching that the Lord Himself revealed to him concerning the Body of Christ. It contains the highest revelation of that. So we read of God`s eternal purposes through Christ, (Eph. 1: 10) and how that Christ has been seated far above all in this age and the one to come. (Eph. 1: 21)

Then is ch. 2 we read of the `New Man` Jews & Gentiles together, equal in Christ. Amazing. Christ is the Head, (Eph. 1: 22) and the His called out ones, (Jews & Gentiles) are His body, the New Man. This is an amazing revelation. Ch. 3 goes on to say this mystery was not known before by people. Ch 4 then reveals how this Body is equipped, built up and matured, `to a perfect man, to the measure of the statue of the fullness of Christ.` (Eph. 4: 13)

From this height of sublime revelation Paul now comes down as it were and speaks of practical matters - how to walk in love. He addresses husbands, and exhorts them to love their wives as Christ does His Body. Paul is not now saying that the New Man is now a woman. It is just an exhortation, not a doctrine. To be a doctrine there must be specific clear teaching on a topic.

Marilyn.
 
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claninja

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In the Apostle Paul`s letter to the Ephesians He is presenting doctrine to them, specific teaching that the Lord Himself revealed to him concerning the Body of Christ. It contains the highest revelation of that. So we read of God`s eternal purposes through Christ, (Eph. 1: 10) and how that Christ has been seated far above all in this age and the one to come. (Eph. 1: 21)

Then is ch. 2 we read of the `New Man` Jews & Gentiles together, equal in Christ. Amazing. Christ is the Head, (Eph. 1: 22) and the His called out ones, (Jews & Gentiles) are His body, the New Man. This is an amazing revelation. Ch. 3 goes on to say this mystery was not known before by people. Ch 4 then reveals how this Body is equipped, built up and matured, `to a perfect man, to the measure of the statue of the fullness of Christ.` (Eph. 4: 13)

Yes, I absolutely agree with you. With Christ as the head and the church his body, it is quite an amazing gift.

From this height of sublime revelation Paul now comes down as it were and speaks of practical matters - how to walk in love. He addresses husbands, and exhorts them to love their wives as Christ does His Body. Paul is not now saying that the New Man is now a woman. It is just an exhortation, not a doctrine. To be a doctrine there must be specific clear teaching on a topic.

Yes, there is an exhortation for men to love their wives. There is also a revealed mystery, a revelation. Ephesians 5:32 ‘for this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined to his wife, and they shall be — the two — for one flesh;’ 32 this secret is great, and I speak in regard to Christ and to the assembly;

Paul is revealing the mystery of marriage and how it is a representation of the relationship of Christ and the church. Christ and the church have become 1 flesh (Christ the head, Church the body) as Man and wife become 1 flesh, not in a sexual sense, but relational. Christ loves his church (his own body) as a husband loves his wife (his own body). Just as Christ is the head of the Church, the husband is the head of the wife.

If you don't mind me asking, what would be your interpretation of Ephesians 5:32?
 
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Marilyn C

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Yes, I absolutely agree with you. With Christ as the head and the church his body, it is quite an amazing gift.

Yes, there is an exhortation for men to love their wives. There is also a revealed mystery, a revelation. Ephesians 5:32 ‘for this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined to his wife, and they shall be — the two — for one flesh;’ 32 this secret is great, and I speak in regard to Christ and to the assembly;

Paul is revealing the mystery of marriage and how it is a representation of the relationship of Christ and the church. Christ and the church have become 1 flesh (Christ the head, Church the body) as Man and wife become 1 flesh, not in a sexual sense, but relational. Christ loves his church (his own body) as a husband loves his wife (his own body). Just as Christ is the head of the Church, the husband is the head of the wife.

If you don't mind me asking, what would be your interpretation of Ephesians 5:32?

Hi claninja,

Good we agree on some things. Now the `mystery` is -

`This is a great mystery, but I speak of Christ and His Body,` (Eph. 5: 32)

`...no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does His Body.` (Eph. 5: 29)

The exhortation to men is to love...as Christ does His Body, (which He died for).
Women are exhorted to respect their husbands.
It is practical advice from Paul to the Ephesian men and women and also children.

Marilyn.
 
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claninja

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Hi claninja,

Good we agree on some things. Now the `mystery` is -

`This is a great mystery, but I speak of Christ and His Body,` (Eph. 5: 32)

`...no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does His Body.` (Eph. 5: 29)

The exhortation to men is to love...as Christ does His Body, (which He died for).
Women are exhorted to respect their husbands.
It is practical advice from Paul to the Ephesian men and women and also children.

Marilyn.
Hi Marilyn,
Thank you for your explanation. I definitely agree there is an exhortation here, but I don't think that the mystery here is for men to love there wives. I believe the mystery here is that as the wife is the body and the husband the head (1 flesh) so too is the church the body and Christ the head (1 flesh). This is why I veiw the church as the bride (body) of Christ as also the wife is the bride (body) of the husband. Which is the mystery that Paul refers to in Ephesians 5:32
 
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Marilyn C

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Hi Marilyn,
Thank you for your explanation. I definitely agree there is an exhortation here, but I don't think that the mystery here is for men to love there wives. I believe the mystery here is that as the wife is the body and the husband the head (1 flesh) so too is the church the body and Christ the head (1 flesh). This is why I veiw the church as the bride (body) of Christ as also the wife is the bride (body) of the husband. Which is the mystery that Paul refers to in Ephesians 5:32

Hi clanija,

Great that you see it as an exhortation. Now to have a doctrine, a teaching on the Church, called out ones, the New Man, being also described as a `woman, a bride, wife,` then you would need a body of scriptures to develop that doctrine.

Note, one scripture does not a doctrine make.

regards, Marilyn.
 
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claninja

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Hi clanija,

Great that you see it as an exhortation. Now to have a doctrine, a teaching on the Church, called out ones, the New Man, being also described as a `woman, a bride, wife,` then you would need a body of scriptures to develop that doctrine.

Note, one scripture does not a doctrine make.

regards, Marilyn.

Hi Marilyn, by no means am i trying to prove or establish a doctrine, just trying to understand what you believe. So if you can further elaborate on what you believe; what is the mystery Paul is referring to in Ephesians 5:32. A man loving his wife as his own body is not a mystery. So what exactly do you think the mystery is?
 
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Marilyn C

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Hi Marilyn, by no means am i trying to prove or establish a doctrine, just trying to understand what you believe. So if you can further elaborate on what you believe; what is the mystery Paul is referring to in Ephesians 5:32. A man loving his wife as his own body is not a mystery. So what exactly do you think the mystery is?

Hi clanija,

Thank you for your interest in what I believe. I was just really point out if you believe something then we need to have scripture to back that up, otherwise we are on shaky ground.

Now that is so right as you said - A man loving his wife as his own body is not a mystery. However...`the two shall become one flesh..` (Eph. 5: 31) is a great mystery. (v. 32)

Christ and His body, one.

Marilyn.
 
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Back to the title of the thread...

The Pre-Tribulation Paradox.

This video was created by Steven Straub, who is the son of a Baptist minister.
Steven changed his viewpoint from the pretrib view to the posttrib view.



 
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claninja

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Hi clanija,

Thank you for your interest in what I believe. I was just really point out if you believe something then we need to have scripture to back that up, otherwise we are on shaky ground.

Now that is so right as you said - A man loving his wife as his own body is not a mystery. However...`the two shall become one flesh..` (Eph. 5: 31) is a great mystery. (v. 32)

Christ and His body, one.

Marilyn.
Thank you for your response marilyn. I just wanted to clarify to make sure I understand you properly. You are saying the mystery is that just as the husband (head) and wife (body) are 1, Christ (head) and the church (body) are 1.
Is that correct?
 
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Marilyn C

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Thank you for your response marilyn. I just wanted to clarify to make sure I understand you properly. You are saying the mystery is that just as the husband (head) and wife (body) are 1, Christ (head) and the church (body) are 1.
Is that correct?

Hi Claninja,
Not quite as I see it. - Husband and wife become one body, Christ and His Body are one.
Hadn`t thought about the `head and body` for husband and wife, as you put it. Interesting. Will have to think upon that.

regards, Marilyn.
 
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claninja

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Hi Claninja,
Not quite as I see it. - Husband and wife become one body, Christ and His Body are one.
Hadn`t thought about the `head and body` for husband and wife, as you put it. Interesting. Will have to think upon that.

regards, Marilyn.

Hi Marilyn,
Having a little bit of a hard time following you on what you believe. So we will start here:

Ephesians 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior.

Here Paul says the husband is the head of the wife, Just as Christ is the head of the church, his body.
It is this verse where he begins to illustrate that marriage is a representation of Christs relationship to the church. From here we can see that the relation of husband (head) to wife (body) is how Christ (head) is in relation to his church (body).

Paul goes even further to explain the the marriage of husband and wife is a great mystery that represents the relationship of Christ and the church. Just as the husband (head) and wife (body) are one flesh, so too are Christ (head) and the church (body).

Ephesians 5:31-32 “Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church.

Paul literally says that husband and wife becoming one flesh (marriage) is a mystery that refers to Christ and the church. So , I'm not following how you can say it is not.
 
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Marilyn C

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Hi Marilyn,
Having a little bit of a hard time following you on what you believe.

Ephesians 5:31-32 “Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church.

Hi claninja,

There it is for you, `Christ and the church`, the called out ones, the Body of Christ, the new man being brought to a perfect man. (Eph. 1: 23, 2: 15, 4: 13)

The focus is on love, unity, oneness.
`No one ever hated his own flesh, (body) but nourishes it and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church, (His body, the new man, to a perfect man). (Eph. 5: 29)

Can you see yourself saying to an unsaved man - `Come to Jesus and be His bride.` Of course not. But if that is what is taught then in fact that is what they`ll eventually be told to believe.

Note the Lord said there as no marriages in heaven. It is an earthly relationship of people. Christ and His Body is the closest relationship you can have. I pray you will look carefully onto it, for it leads to what we believe our inheritance is.

blessings, Marilyn.
 
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