5 Basic Principles of Hermeneutics

dysert

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Hi,

I've been teaching the Bible (and therefore applying hermeneutics) for about 40 years now. There are some principles that I always follow. Today I came across another (more experienced) teacher who emphasizes 5 basic principles of hermeneutics. I thought it would make for a good discussion if I posted them one at a time so we could talk about each of them in turn. Anyone game? The first principle will be posted in the next reply and will probably generate the most discussion. I'm eager to see how this plays out. Thanks for participating.
 

dysert

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Principle 1 - The Literal Principle
You interpret the Scripture according to normal language, real people, real history, normal language.

If somebody comes up to you and says, “It’s certainly a beautiful day today.” You say, “Oh, what’s the secret meaning of that?” There’s no secret meaning, it’s just a beautiful day, I thought I’d say that. Why would you do that with the Bible? If the Bible says something that matter of fact, why would you assume there’s some secret hidden meaning? There isn’t. So this is real people, real history, normal language…its real meaning. The words of Scripture are words that are to be understood in ordinary ways in the course of any daily use of normal language. Whatever the most obvious meaning, the simplest meaning, the clearest meaning, the most normal meaning—that’s the meaning.

You say, “Well what about figurative language?” Well, you know, we use figurative language. “You know, I’m as worn out as a dog. I’m…” You don’t mean you’re a dog. We understand metaphoric language, we understand analogies, we speak in analogies all the time. That’s normal language. Figures of speech are normal language. Symbolism is normal language. But allegory is secret, hidden meaning that is not contained in the normal language. There are no allegories in the Bible. There are no allegories in the Bible, it is normal language, it means exactly what it appears to me. There is no deeper meaning, there’s no hidden meaning, there’s no secret meaning, there’s no spiritualized meaning. Yes, they’re prophetic passages where there are analogies, there are illustrations. You read Zechariah, Daniel, Ezekiel, Isaiah, in the book of Revelation you see images…those images are conveying a reality. They are conveying a reality in a symbolic way. And, you know, we use those kinds of things all the time, so did Jesus in parables, right? Parables were fictional stories conveying actual truth.

So you do not ever abandon literal interpretation in favor of some mystical, hidden allegorical interpretation which discards accuracy, coherence, intelligence and reason. Then you have a free-for-all…free-for-all. This also was the way the rabbis did it. The rabbis said Abraham had 318 students because letters and…letters had a numerical equivalent and the consonants in Abraham’s name added up to 318, so the fact that the consonants in Abraham’s name added up to 318 meant that Abraham had 318 servants. That’s just not true, that’s irrelevant. It has nothing to do with the truth that’s being conveyed with the name Abraham. But that kind of esoteric, quasi, Gnostic sort of elevated insight was very common among rabbis and we find a lot of it today in…it appears in numerology, sometimes you read about numbers in the Bible…sometimes you read about certain historical events appearing in the text of the bible if you go across the letters at an angle, or a diagonal or up or down or across and it gives all the events of history. You can throw those things in a computer. Somebody did that. Somebody said this is the secret meaning of the Bible, there are books that have been written on this. Somebody else put the same stuff together, threw it in a computer and accomplished exactly the same thing with Herman Melville’s Moby Dick. And he wasn’t divine, and he didn’t write secret meanings in the letters on different rows and at different angles. So these kinds of things are crazy misguiding treatments of Scripture. So literal…literal.
 
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dysert

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Thanks for the pointers. They're both saying essentially the same thing, viz., that there are four "levels" of interpretation: Simple, Hinted, Comparative, and Mystical. That's certainly a different way to look at the Literal Principle. Maybe we'll run into a different "level" as we look at the other Principles. Speaking of...
 
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dysert

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Principle 2 - The Historical Principle
The historical context is everything…culture, geography, politics, religion, the thinking of the people, the perspectives, the world view, what’s going on at the time, how the people think…all of that is informing you on the historical context.


What are the characteristics of the city? What were the cultural conditions? What were the politics? What were the social pressures? What were the tensions? What were the problems? What were the crises? What were the customs of the people? What informs all of this?
 
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dysert

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Principle 3 - The Grammatical Principle
This is to take a look at the language and the syntax and lexicography of a passage…the words, the way they’re arranged, the prepositions, the pronouns, the antecedents.



What do the words mean? What does the antecedent of this? What is the preposition telling me? To what does this pronoun refer? To whom does it refer? So it’s a grammatical thing. We break that into word studies, studies of actual words, syntax which is how the words are connected with each other.

The word studies is lexicography, what is the lexicon definition. Syntax is how the words are constructed and that is part of the science. So you have to get into the grammar. This is where knowing the original language is really critical. And if you don’t know Greek and Hebrew, you can…and you want to really study the Bible, you can get books that will give you the English. You can access the Greek from the English. You can access even the Hebrew from the English and find those original meanings. One of the reason through the years that I’ve written so many commentaries is to help people do that. I’ve written a Bible handbook which Carmella was telling me was very helpful to her and we’re going to feature that coming up so you can have a Bible handbook that would just do a ton to help you with all of this material. There are other books like that that are available in the bookstore. Instead of just buying the end product of somebody else’s study, get in on the front end of it, get these kind of books and go at it yourself.

It’s necessary to do grammar to find out what the meaning is and just to give you kind of a maybe a step deeper into it, when I’m interpreting a passage, I look for the main verbs because verbs always carry the action and that’s what you’re always looking for, the flow of action is always around the main verbs. And if you can find a main verb supported by a lot of participles, you know the participle always modifiers the main verb and you can work your outline around the main verb and the participles. So you’re digging down on verbs, nouns, phrases, modifiers, adverbs, adjectives, all of that is in the course of doing grammatical study.
 
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the old scribe

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Principle 1 - The Literal Principle
You interpret the Scripture according to normal language, real people, real history, normal language.

If somebody comes up to you and says, “It’s certainly a beautiful day today.” You say, “Oh, what’s the secret meaning of that?” There’s no secret meaning, it’s just a beautiful day, I thought I’d say that. Why would you do that with the Bible? If the Bible says something that matter of fact, why would you assume there’s some secret hidden meaning? There isn’t. So this is real people, real history, normal language…its real meaning. The words of Scripture are words that are to be understood in ordinary ways in the course of any daily use of normal language. Whatever the most obvious meaning, the simplest meaning, the clearest meaning, the most normal meaning—that’s the meaning.

You say, “Well what about figurative language?” Well, you know, we use figurative language. “You know, I’m as worn out as a dog. I’m…” You don’t mean you’re a dog. We understand metaphoric language, we understand analogies, we speak in analogies all the time. That’s normal language. Figures of speech are normal language. Symbolism is normal language. But allegory is secret, hidden meaning that is not contained in the normal language. There are no allegories in the Bible. There are no allegories in the Bible, it is normal language, it means exactly what it appears to me. There is no deeper meaning, there’s no hidden meaning, there’s no secret meaning, there’s no spiritualized meaning. Yes, they’re prophetic passages where there are analogies, there are illustrations. You read Zechariah, Daniel, Ezekiel, Isaiah, in the book of Revelation you see images…those images are conveying a reality. They are conveying a reality in a symbolic way. And, you know, we use those kinds of things all the time, so did Jesus in parables, right? Parables were fictional stories conveying actual truth.

So you do not ever abandon literal interpretation in favor of some mystical, hidden allegorical interpretation which discards accuracy, coherence, intelligence and reason. Then you have a free-for-all…free-for-all. This also was the way the rabbis did it. The rabbis said Abraham had 318 students because letters and…letters had a numerical equivalent and the consonants in Abraham’s name added up to 318, so the fact that the consonants in Abraham’s name added up to 318 meant that Abraham had 318 servants. That’s just not true, that’s irrelevant. It has nothing to do with the truth that’s being conveyed with the name Abraham. But that kind of esoteric, quasi, Gnostic sort of elevated insight was very common among rabbis and we find a lot of it today in…it appears in numerology, sometimes you read about numbers in the Bible…sometimes you read about certain historical events appearing in the text of the bible if you go across the letters at an angle, or a diagonal or up or down or across and it gives all the events of history. You can throw those things in a computer. Somebody did that. Somebody said this is the secret meaning of the Bible, there are books that have been written on this. Somebody else put the same stuff together, threw it in a computer and accomplished exactly the same thing with Herman Melville’s Moby Dick. And he wasn’t divine, and he didn’t write secret meanings in the letters on different rows and at different angles. So these kinds of things are crazy misguiding treatments of Scripture. So literal…literal.

It has been half a century since I read Bernard Ramm. Therfore, I am not sharp.

My understanding of literal is different from what is presented in prin. #1 Is not the literal meaning using your example of "as a dog" has the form of a simile "as"? Therefore, no explanation would be needed. However, if the statement is , "I am a dog" as a metaphor this is figurative language and literal would mean the dog has just spoken English - in its literal meaning.

Getting around this issue is the hermenutic named the grammatico-historical method which accounts for different types of literature and generally agrees with all but the literal assertions of prin. #1.

Wish all those on the forum would read and learn. But it is not a new problem.

"Our own curiosity often hindereth us in the reading of holy writings, when we seek to understand and discuss, where we should pass simply on. If thou wouldst profit by thy reading, read humbly, simply, honestly, and not desiring to win a character [i.e., reputation] for learning."

... Thomas à Kempis (1380-1471), Of the Imitation of Christ [1418]
 
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1gh2g3f4

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Principle 1 - The Literal Principle
You interpret the Scripture according to normal language, real people, real history, normal language.

If somebody comes up to you and says, “It’s certainly a beautiful day today.” You say, “Oh, what’s the secret meaning of that?” There’s no secret meaning, it’s just a beautiful day, I thought I’d say that. Why would you do that with the Bible? If the Bible says something that matter of fact, why would you assume there’s some secret hidden meaning? There isn’t. So this is real people, real history, normal language…its real meaning. The words of Scripture are words that are to be understood in ordinary ways in the course of any daily use of normal language. Whatever the most obvious meaning, the simplest meaning, the clearest meaning, the most normal meaning—that’s the meaning.

You say, “Well what about figurative language?” Well, you know, we use figurative language. “You know, I’m as worn out as a dog. I’m…” You don’t mean you’re a dog. We understand metaphoric language, we understand analogies, we speak in analogies all the time. That’s normal language. Figures of speech are normal language. Symbolism is normal language. But allegory is secret, hidden meaning that is not contained in the normal language. There are no allegories in the Bible. There are no allegories in the Bible, it is normal language, it means exactly what it appears to me. There is no deeper meaning, there’s no hidden meaning, there’s no secret meaning, there’s no spiritualized meaning. Yes, they’re prophetic passages where there are analogies, there are illustrations. You read Zechariah, Daniel, Ezekiel, Isaiah, in the book of Revelation you see images…those images are conveying a reality. They are conveying a reality in a symbolic way. And, you know, we use those kinds of things all the time, so did Jesus in parables, right? Parables were fictional stories conveying actual truth.

So you do not ever abandon literal interpretation in favor of some mystical, hidden allegorical interpretation which discards accuracy, coherence, intelligence and reason. Then you have a free-for-all…free-for-all. This also was the way the rabbis did it. The rabbis said Abraham had 318 students because letters and…letters had a numerical equivalent and the consonants in Abraham’s name added up to 318, so the fact that the consonants in Abraham’s name added up to 318 meant that Abraham had 318 servants. That’s just not true, that’s irrelevant. It has nothing to do with the truth that’s being conveyed with the name Abraham. But that kind of esoteric, quasi, Gnostic sort of elevated insight was very common among rabbis and we find a lot of it today in…it appears in numerology, sometimes you read about numbers in the Bible…sometimes you read about certain historical events appearing in the text of the bible if you go across the letters at an angle, or a diagonal or up or down or across and it gives all the events of history. You can throw those things in a computer. Somebody did that. Somebody said this is the secret meaning of the Bible, there are books that have been written on this. Somebody else put the same stuff together, threw it in a computer and accomplished exactly the same thing with Herman Melville’s Moby Dick. And he wasn’t divine, and he didn’t write secret meanings in the letters on different rows and at different angles. So these kinds of things are crazy misguiding treatments of Scripture. So literal…literal.


this is good and i do go study like this.. and well like most of the other ones too so this is something that really excites me and actually sounds like exactly what im looking for with the study of the bible.. and i do mean perfectly.. im not so well with politics so much and not ALL of the umm hardships but i do have a good idea on the new testament on most of these things but when we get into the old testament it feels like that just almost to much to apply... anyways i would like to get to my point and its this... there has been many times where the parables of jesus did indeed confuse me to the point of this isn't literal.. this does have some other real meaning.. for example... if your right eye offends you pluck it out... better for one of your members to enter hell than you whole body.. ive only came across this teaching that i do agree with recently so bare with me as i try to get it out... what was jesus talking about right before the plucking out of the eye.. it was the looking at another woman with lust means you have already committed adultery in your heart. and in this way.... i know that is true.. this has to do with his fulfillment.. "the circumcision of the heart." he is going right to the root of it.. but what is this about plucking out the eye surely he dont mean that cause i could surely see with my other eye..... and there also would be one other thing that he is forgetting.. id still have a penis... so that wouldnt exactly have cut that out... it cant be literal and its not... the eyes would often represent the way that you seen the world... the hands would represent the works you did... the feet would represent the path or direction you was in life.. those are the things he said to cut off... then he goes on to talk about sex and how when god had finished making all of creation and adam and eve with all their working body parts...... not only did he say it was good.. but it was VERY GOOD... so hmm sex is very good... (no) because sex can be used wrongly and even for evil... so it is not good or bad.. it is a power!... and this is the beautiful part.. what is it that paul said our battle was.... it is not against flesh and blood... but principalities and powers in heavenly places... where is heaven??? heaven is within you... all these scripture just lined up in such a way with that.. that is shows you a FULL picture that you can see from the outside looking in... and i never would have understood this without than mean teaching me... what does jesus mean by plucking out your right eye or cutting off your right hand or your right foot.. (notice he never said left...) it is alagory... even when jesus spoke.. he said Matthew 13:10-11 The disciples came to him and asked, "Why do you speak to the people in parables?" He replied, "Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. (then he goes on to tell this fulfills the prophecy of is Isaiah: "'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.) so its hard to say that EVERYTHING is literal... and its very hard to say that... it is all symbols or all literal and it certainly isnt in revelation i do see that they tried to say that it was... i did read it.. i read them all but could you elaborate on this some.. it even seemed to contradict itself by saying there is no allegory in the bible... then saying yes you will see allegory in prophecy... (which is in the bible...) im not advocating not reading it literally indeed this is how i read till i see something that needs to be understood more than just words here
 
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the parables of jesus did indeed confuse me to the point of this isn't literal..

The interpretation of parables - Parables make only one point - all the supporting details of a parable should not be taken literally or used to interpret other passages. Analogies have the same rules of interpretation.
 
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The interpretation of parables - Parables make only one point - all the supporting details of a parable should not be taken literally or used to interpret other passages. Analogies have the same rules of interpretation.

i could agree with that to a point... but can you elaborate on what you mean with examples using scripture showing me this...
 
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Copperhead

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The interpretation of parables - Parables make only one point - all the supporting details of a parable should not be taken literally or used to interpret other passages. Analogies have the same rules of interpretation.

Let's take a short, simple one.

Matthew 13:33 (NKJV) Another parable He spoke to them: “The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal till it was all leavened.”

This one has gotten a lot of varied interpretation over the years. it does require other scripture to glean the meaning of this verse. And it is the lack of applying other scripture to it that has led to the wide range of interpretation of the passage, when it really should be pretty straight forward if one holds to Principle 1 and another principle of scripture interpretation: The principle of expositional constancy. That the HS tends to use idioms with similar meaning throughout scripture.
 
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i could agree with that to a point... but can you elaborate on what you mean with examples using scripture showing me this...
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Chapter 13 of Matthew is a place to start understanding how to interpret scriptures.

Each of these parables has only one truth about the kingdom of heaven. This is demonstrated in that there are four pairs of parables where each pair presents the same truth while using different particulars. Therefore, the specific details are used only as a simile and haven’t any value for interpreting other passages.


In parables 2 and 7 weeds (tares) verses fish.

In parables 3 and 4 mustard seed verses leaven

In parables 5 and 6 the hidden treasure verses the pearl of great price.

This leaves parables 1 and 8. It might be that the good seed sown on good soil producing grain is the same as the scribe trained for the kingdom who brings the treasures out of his house. Here grain verses treasure and good soil verses the scribe trained for the kingdom - using a double pair of different specific details.

There are eight parables about the kingdom of heaven:

(1.) Kingdom of heaven is like the Parable of the Sower (Matthew 13:3-9) also Mark 4:26

(2.) Kingdom of heaven is like the Parable of the Weeds or Tares (Matthew 13:24-30)

(3.) Kingdom of heaven is like the Parable of the Mustard Seed (31-32) also Mark 4:30; Luke 13:18-19

(4.) Kingdom of heaven is like the Parable of the Leaven (Matthew 13:33) also Luke 13:20-21

(5.) Kingdom of heaven is like the Parable of the Hidden Treasure (Matthew 13:44)

(6.) Kingdom of heaven is like the Parable of the Pearl of Great Value (Matthew 13:45-46)

(7.) Kingdom of heaven is like the Parable of the Net (47-48) kingdom of heaven

(8.) Kingdom of heaven is like the Parable of the New and Old Treasures (Matthew 13:51-52)

Interpretations:

For three of these eight parables the Lord Jesus interprets them:

(1.) Parable of the Sower Explained (Matthew 13:18-23) Bearing fruit upon hearing the word of the kingdom of heaven depends upon ones understanding. Apparently, understanding is equated with faith and obedience.

(2.) Parable of the Weeds or tares Explained (Matthew 13:36-43) At the end of the age the weeds are those gathered from out of the kingdom - all causes of sin and all law breakers are thrown into the fiery furnace.

(7.) Parable of the Net Explained (Matthew 13:49-50) The angels will come out at the end of the age and separate the evil from the righteous and throw them into the fiery furnace

Two of these parables are about the growth of the kingdom of heaven. These two are very similar to the rock in Daniel 2:34-35 that destroyed the statue and grew to fill the whole world. These parables forecast the triumph or complete victory of the Lord Jesus or the Church and the gospel.

(3.) Kingdom of heaven is like the Parable of the Mustard Seed (Matthew 13:31-32)

(4.) Kingdom of heaven is like the Parable of the Leaven (Matthew 13:33)

Two parables describe the comparative value of the kingdom of heaven as being worth all that a man has.

(5.) Kingdom of heaven is like the Parable of the Hidden Treasure (Matthew 13:44)

(6.) Kingdom of heaven is like the Parable of the Pearl of Great Value (Matthew 13:45-46)

In the eighth parable the Lord Jesus refers back to the first parable to insure the disciples understood the truths about the kingdom of heaven - both what has been learned with that which was previously known. The allusion to scribes should not be taken as the scribes of the law but of the Holy Ghost where the truths of the kingdom of heaven are written upon their hearts.

(8.) Kingdom of heaven is like the Parable of the New and Old Treasures (Matthew 13:51-52)

Purpose of Parables - Matthew 13:10-17

Parables as the fulfillment prophecy – Matthew 13:34-35
 
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the old scribe

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The principle of expositional constancy. That the HS tends to use idioms with similar meaning throughout scripture.
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You express a hermeneutical principle “The principle of expositional constancy. That the HS tends to use idioms with similar meaning throughout scripture.”

Are you using this rule to make the point that Israel is always represented as a fig tree as done by Dr. John Walvoord?
 
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I would contend that the parable of the Leaven and the parable of the Mustard Seed show deteriorating conditions in the kingdom.

Leaven throughout scripture is viewed as a negative and idiomatic of corruption. Both old and new testaments. It was a serious thing to introduce leaven into any of the offerings at the temple. Only the offering of first fruits of the harvest was allowed to have leaven in it. Jesus warned his disciples several times to beware of the leaven of the pharisees. Paul made it a point in Corinthians and Galations that leaven was idiomatic of corruption and sin.

The parable of the leaven therefore should show that evil is entered into the kingdom and grows till it infects the entire thing. That would substantiate why, when Satan is released at the end of the 1000 year kingdom that he is able to muster a major rebellion against God one last time. Sin has permeated the kingdom.

Likewise the parable of the mustard seed shows the same thing. The birds were shown in the parable of the sower, as elaborated by Jesus to his disciples when they asked Him to explain it, that they are the evil adversaries. In the mustard seed example, the birds are nesting in the tree. This compliments the leaven parable that evil is in the kingdom.

That is why Jesus will rule with a rod of iron during the millennial kingdom. Sin will still be a problem.

That is what I meant by holding to a sound hermeneutic that not only takes the plain sense of the passage, but follows the pattern of expositional constancy, which calls for interpreting something in light of how it was meant in other passages. Leaven throughout scripture is always a negative. Birds, in general, have been idiomatic of evil emissaries throughout scripture as well. It follows that they should mean the same thing in these parables to glean the true meaning of them.
 
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I would contend that the parable of the Leaven and the parable of the Mustard Seed show deteriorating conditions in the kingdom.

Leaven throughout scripture is viewed as a negative and idiomatic of corruption. Both old and new testaments. It was a serious thing to introduce leaven into any of the offerings at the temple. Only the offering of first fruits of the harvest was allowed to have leaven in it. Jesus warned his disciples several times to beware of the leaven of the pharisees. Paul made it a point in Corinthians and Galations that leaven was idiomatic of corruption and sin.

The parable of the leaven therefore should show that evil is entered into the kingdom and grows till it infects the entire thing. That would substantiate why, when Satan is released at the end of the 1000 year kingdom that he is able to muster a major rebellion against God one last time. Sin has permeated the kingdom.

Likewise the parable of the mustard seed shows the same thing. The birds were shown in the parable of the sower, as elaborated by Jesus to his disciples when they asked Him to explain it, that they are the evil adversaries. In the mustard seed example, the birds are nesting in the tree. This compliments the leaven parable that evil is in the kingdom.

That is why Jesus will rule with a rod of iron during the millennial kingdom. Sin will still be a problem.

That is what I meant by holding to a sound hermeneutic that not only takes the plain sense of the passage, but follows the pattern of expositional constancy, which calls for interpreting something in light of how it was meant in other passages. Leaven throughout scripture is always a negative. Birds, in general, have been idiomatic of evil emissaries throughout scripture as well. It follows that they should mean the same thing in these parables to glean the true meaning of them.
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Kingdom of heaven expectations
This is too long - You might not want to read this.
I got carried away in the excitement.

Premillennialist are pessimistic about the Church.
Postmillennialist are optimistic about the Church.
Amillennialist cannot be categorized into either camp. There are some amillennialist in each camp and others who see the advancement of the Church as always advancing but never the dominate faith among the peoples of the world.

Matthew 16:18 (ESV) And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

How does your view of the church as leaven and the mustard seed compare with mine?

Look at the progress of the Church.
Once upon a time there was one apostate nation.

About A.D. 30
There were a few disciples – maybe several hundred.
There was only one nation who claimed to worship YHWH and most of those citizens were apostate. Eighteen percent (18%) of the verses of the gospels record the Lord Jesus condemning his fellow Jews.

By about A.D. 58 the Apostle could write, “First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world” (Romans 1:8 KJV).
Although, “the whole world” is hyperbole it insinuates that the Church has spreading among many peoples. Claiming the whole world was not a ridiculous expectation.

Before his death the Apostle Thomas evangelized people on the west coast of India. These Christians are still known today as Thomasites. In the sixteenth century when the Portuguese landed on the west cost of India with Catholic missionaries they encountered the Thomasite Christians.

Many of the ancient masques in the Middle East are built over the early churches. While the Muslim dominance of Middle East culture reduced the Christian influence there has remained a remnant in the face of martyrdom.

During the forth century Christianity became such a force to be declared an official religion of the Roman Empire.

The Church continued to grow through the centuries of the dark and middle ages. While the institutional Church became corrupted, considering the number of the remnant that were martyred suggest there were many faithful outside of the institutional church.

Most western European nations established their own state Christianity. While modern people may find this arrangement offensive, people who lived and worshipped under state religions could be faithful followers. It is the corruption of the Roman Catholic Church which inspired the Protestant Reformation. During this whole period the Eastern Orthodox Church continued its dominance in the east.

In the west Christians often forget about the Eastern Church’s dominance in Eastern Europe and Russia. The Church became so important that the Eastern Church is identified with the name of the country – as Greek Orthodox and others.

The Coptic Church dominated in Egypt since the evangelist Mark brought Christianity to this land about A.D. 50. The Ethiopian, Armenian, and Syriac Orthodox churches are all Oriental Orthodox churches in communion with the Coptic Orthodox Church.

There are more Presbyterians in South Korea than in the USA. There is spiritual awakening in Korea!

The number of Protestant Christian in China could reach 171 million by 2021 and 255 million by 2025. Chinese Christian are planning to send missionaries to Muslim countries where it is against the law to evangelize. When told they would be jailed or killed they reply, “So, how is that different than being Christian in China.” The Chinese government just keeps on bulldozing their houses.

There were more Christian martyrs in the 20th century than in the total of the previous nineteen centuries.

Today, missionary after missionary recount the stories of unbelievers, even Muslims, having dreams of Christ and repenting and believing when presented the gospel. Some are murdered as in a village in Africa where twenty young women were murdered by their Muslim families rather the deny their faith. Because we are spiritual dead in America is not any indication of what the Lord is doing elsewhere.

The USA has become so corrupted (given up by God to our own evil desires) that all we see is the defeat of Christian values and the Church. This is not what is happening around the globe. When missionaries return to the USA they have difficulty in relating to American Christians because of their lack of commitment and sacrifice. That is us.

So, 2000 years ago there was one apostate nation pretending to serve YHWH. Today the Church marches on conquering people for Christ. If past history is an indicator, the future for the Church should continue to be victorious in spite of the many, many pitfalls ahead. Just look back on all the things that could have destroyed Christianity. Will the gospel ever dominate all peoples as it did in the American Bible belt seventy years ago? Will there ever be another time when 10, 000 New Yorkers each week are accepting the Lord as savior as was happening for several years back in the early 20th century? Will our nation return to the time when 98% of the people were members of the Church as in 1958? Will there be a future when there will be more Christians in the world than unbelievers? Only God knows these things – not the premillennialist, nor the postmillennialist nor the amillennialist can tell you these things. It is not revealed.

What is revealed is the great commission to “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”

My life in Christ is victorious as it is for all believers everywhere.
May we all sing "Onward Christian Soldiers."
 
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Copperhead

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Well, I never said I was any kind of pre, post, or amillenial person. I am actually Pan-Tribulationist. I believe it will all Pan out as God has planned it, and most of us will have egg on our face when we find out what really happens. That is why I don't use such things as a litmus test as to whether one is a true believer or not.

Yeah, Europe is essentially post Christian, and the U.S. is trying to catch up to them. And the church has lost almost all influence on the culture, as we now have same sex marriage and the U.S. has slaughtered more children than Hitler, Stalin, and Mao put together.

According to a study, 90% of the people in the U.S. believe in God. But only 10% of those think that Jesus is the God they believe in. Almost every major denomination in the U.S. is in numerical decline.

I don't believe that there will ever be a time where there are more believers than non believers in the world. After all, Jesus said the gate was narrow and few there are that find it. And while He did say the gates of Hell would not overtake the church, in Revelation 13:7 the false Messiah is allowed to make war with the saints and overcomes them. No time in history has that happened. It strongly implies that the church, as we know it now, is not here when that happens. It is yet future, so that one can't be pigeon holed in some past event like the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD or some other nonsense.

And it is actually an Angel that gets the gospel message told finally to the entire world in Revelation 14:6-7, not the church.

And the church already was in trouble before the ink was dry on the NT. The letters to the seven churches in Revelation, the letters to the Corinthians, etc should make that pretty clear. And the apple doesn't fall far from the tree and the church is in pretty sad shape generally.

And a history of the church has to include some real nasty stuff. One pope, in one day, slaughtered more Christians than all the Roman emperors combined. The "Onward Christian Soldiers" of the Crusades would have contests to see how many Jewish babies they could get on a sword. Those same "onward Christian Soldiers" would raze synagogues and kill Jews in Europe on their way to do the crusades. Martin Luther said that all synagogues should be burned, all Torah Scrolls (the OT) should be burned, and all property of Jews should be confiscated. And the Nazis used Martin Luther and such "pillars of the church" as their source material to justify what they did to the Jews. Is it any wonder that Jews are leery of anything Christian and why the rest of the world has little use for Christianity. The one group that Paul dearly wanted to evangelize, the church, both institutional and independent, has decided to ostracize for 2000 years.

When Ghandi was asked one time what was the main problem with establishing Christianity as a dominate belief in India, he answered... "Christians". We have a pretty sad track record. And we can't seem to avoid fighting among each other.

But it does comport with the kingdom parables of the leaven and the mustard seed, even in the present age.
 
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the old scribe

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Well, I never said I was any kind of pre, post, or amillenial person. I am actually Pan-Tribulationist. I believe it will all Pan out as God has planned it, and most of us will have egg on our face when we find out what really happens. That is why I don't use such things as a litmus test as to whether one is a true believer or not.
Copperhead post #17:
“when Satan is released at the end of the 1000 year kingdom”

Question: How can this statement not assume a millennial position?

and

According to your interpretation of the parables of the leaven and the mustard seed (Matthew 13) your position on the kingdom of heaven is very pessimistic.

Providing information about three millennial positions and the corresponding view for the future of the Church generally held by each position was not intended as a test but clarification and not - "as to whether one is a true believer or not." Any judgment you might have felt is self imposed. I fellowship with missionaries and true believers from each of these millennial positions.
 
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