Colossians 2:13 NIV [13] When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful na

John Chalmers

New Member
Jul 17, 2017
4
1
55
Te Puke
✟16,076.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
For the Greek students out there!

When this scripture says "all sins" is there any indication in the original Greek of the "tense" it is referring to...is it indicating our passed and future sins are forgiven from the point of being "born again" or being made "alive in Christ" or just passed sins? Or is it even a relavant question?
 

yeshuaslavejeff

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
Jan 6, 2005
39,944
11,098
okie
✟214,996.00
Faith
Anabaptist
For the Greek students out there!

When this scripture says "all sins" is there any indication in the original Greek of the "tense" it is referring to...is it indicating our passed and future sins are forgiven from the point of being "born again" or being made "alive in Christ" or just passed sins? Or is it even a relavant question?
For clarity,
quote the Scripture with its preceding paragraph, and thru the next one,
especially where you say it says "all sins",
as "all sins" is not in the title nor in the OP.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Marvin Knox
Upvote 0

Acts2:38

Well-Known Member
Apr 14, 2017
1,593
660
Naples
✟71,708.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
For the Greek students out there!

When this scripture says "all sins" is there any indication in the original Greek of the "tense" it is referring to...is it indicating our passed and future sins are forgiven from the point of being "born again" or being made "alive in Christ" or just passed sins? Or is it even a relavant question?

1 John is speaking to people who are already Christian. Read 1 John 1, Romans 3:23. Also, like the other poster here, read the situation of context before and after in Colossians. There is a reason there are so many warnings in scripture for even the christians. There is a reason Jesus has told us to remain faithful. It is cause we can fall from grace, example 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9.
 
Upvote 0

Fish Catcher Jim

Radically Saved
Feb 19, 2015
562
490
SW MI for now
✟19,583.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
1John1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

As you can see clearly here, even though Jesus died for All sins, past, present and future we still need to ask.

Some will disagree but here are a couple of factors.

We have a accuser. Revelation 12:10
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Blessings
FCJ
 
Upvote 0

sdowney717

Newbie
Apr 20, 2013
8,712
2,021
✟102,588.00
Faith
Christian
3 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.

Well certainly if you believe that once you have eternal life, you can not lose eternal life, and that all things will work out to the good of them that love God who are the called according to His purposes, then it must include the forgiveness of all your sins past present future, that He already knows you will do.
How that comes about is God grants you repentance and he will restore you. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak. God is greater than our hearts and knows ALL things. Nothing that you can do will surprise Christ, since he wrote the Book of Life, and wrote your name in it at the foundation of the world.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
 
Upvote 0

paul1149

that your faith might rest in the power of God
Site Supporter
Mar 22, 2011
8,460
5,268
NY
✟674,964.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
"all sins" is an adjective and a noun, neither of which has any tense. The verb in question, though, is aorist in tense and participial in mood. Aorist is point-action, done once. But the participle indicates continuing action or effect. So it comes out as "having graciously forgiven all our trespasses".

I don't think you can construct a doctrine based on the grammar given here. You would have to look for broader context. I believe that a balanced outcome would be that the legal foundation for forgiveness of all sins, including those in the future (as indeed all our sins were in the future when Christ paid for them) has been laid, but that significant sins should be confessed, a la 1jn 1.9.
 
  • Like
Reactions: John Chalmers
Upvote 0

Fish Catcher Jim

Radically Saved
Feb 19, 2015
562
490
SW MI for now
✟19,583.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
it must include the forgiveness of all your sins past present future, that He already knows you will do.
How that comes about is God grants you repentance and he will restore you.

Greetings @sdowney717
This is certainly true But where many fall short is.......they don't ask. It does not automatically happen as many think
Blessings
FCJ
 
Upvote 0

Marvin Knox

Senior Veteran
May 9, 2014
4,291
1,453
✟84,588.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
This is certainly true But where many fall short is.......they don't ask. It does not automatically happen as many think Blessings FCJ
I don't know anyone who thinks it happens "automatically".

I also don't know anywhere where we are told to ask. Please show us the scripture which requires that for salvation.

We are told to believe for salvation - which seems to include identification as a sinner, repentance, and a heartfelt faith in Christ's accomplishments at Calvary for us.

As for whether it is referring to sins past, present, future or all of the above - we need to look carefully at what the texts says.

It says, "having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross."

All means all in this case IMO. Not only that but the requirements of the law (whether on stone for the Jews or in the heart of gentiles) has been wiped out as far as staying saved is concerned.

Now -- that would be a bit of a thin case if that was all we had to go on concerning the eternal security of the believer. But it is only one cog in a very big wheel of scripture proofs in any properly conducted systematic theology concerning our salvation.
 
Upvote 0

Fish Catcher Jim

Radically Saved
Feb 19, 2015
562
490
SW MI for now
✟19,583.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
don't know anyone who thinks it happens "automatically".
All that believe in once saved always saved do.

I also don't know anywhere where we are told to ask. Please show us the scripture which requires that for salvatio

Ok which way you going with this.
Getting saved or after saved

Revelation 12:10
And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God.

So after being saved you better take advantage of 1John1:9
 
Upvote 0

DeaconDean

γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον
Jul 19, 2005
22,183
2,677
61
Gastonia N.C. (Piedmont of N.C.)
✟100,334.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
All that believe in once saved always saved do.

Wrong!

I believe in OSAS, but I also know that in this life, we will never reach "entire sanctification", therefore when I sin, I have 1 Jn. 1:8-10 that tells me all I have to do is confess, and it shall be forgiven.

Those that believe we can continue to do as we please even after salvation believe in antinomianism. And that, is an ancient heresy.

But unless I have terribly misread scripture, there is one and only one sin that shall never be forgiven.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Acts2:38

Well-Known Member
Apr 14, 2017
1,593
660
Naples
✟71,708.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Wrong!

I believe in OSAS, but I also know that in this life, we will never reach "entire sanctification", therefore when I sin, I have 1 Jn. 1:8-10 that tells me all I have to do is confess, and it shall be forgiven.

Those that believe we can continue to do as we please even after salvation believe in antinomianism. And that, is an ancient heresy.

But unless I have terribly misread scripture, there is one and only one sin that shall never be forgiven.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Actually, from the "text book" definition of OSAS, fishcatcher jim is not wrong in the fact that believers of this man made idea think they cannot fall from grace. Scripture has shown otherwise:

Paul states here, 1 Corinthians 9:26-27, that he run the race with endurance (remain faithful and obedient to the gospel) lest he should be cast out aka fall from grace losing salvation.

Judas "fell by transgression" losing his chance for salvation, Acts 1:25.

Demas was a brother, but then fell and lost salvation "loving the world", Philemon 1:24; Colossians 4:14; 2 Timothy 4:10

Hebrews 6:4-6, is quite a warning to who are in Christ and saved.

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 makes it abundantly clear that those who do not obey the gospel are lost. This includes those in Christ, "they" not specific to non christians, but also to christians as well.

Romans 2:7, again remaining faithful by doing the good works as commanded by Jesus and His word, the gospel (James 1:25)

Romans 11:22, a warning to those who choose to fall, severity. To those who do good and continue in it, eternal life.
 
Upvote 0

John Chalmers

New Member
Jul 17, 2017
4
1
55
Te Puke
✟16,076.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
"all sins" is an adjective and a noun, neither of which has any tense. The verb in question, though, is aorist in tense and participial in mood. Aorist is point-action, done once. But the participle indicates continuing action or effect. So it comes out as "having graciously forgiven all our trespasses".

I don't think you can construct a doctrine based on the grammar given here. You would have to look for broader context. I believe that a balanced outcome would be that the legal foundation for forgiveness of all sins, including those in the future (as indeed all our sins were in the future when Christ paid for them) has been laid, but that significant sins should be confessed, a la 1jn 1.9.
 
Upvote 0

John Chalmers

New Member
Jul 17, 2017
4
1
55
Te Puke
✟16,076.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Paul
Please reply to my thoughts.

Once we come to Christ to surrender to him as Lord we enter a forgiven state of relationship with God and ARE forgiven.

The fact that we may sin against God following our conversion does not nullify the work of the cross.
Our salvation is already secure. But why we need to confess our sins when they are made known by the Holy Spirit is not to restore our salvation but to restore our relationship with Him.
I am saying this because there are those who seem to think we lose our salvation every time we sin...incorrect...because there is only one cross...but we need to restore a break in our relationship.
My understanding is that if we were to lose our salvation it's gone, Hebrews seems to make that clear.
Hebrews 6:4-6 NIV
[4] It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, [5] who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, [6] if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.


What are your thoughts? (If you can understand my thoughts)
 
  • Like
Reactions: Marvin Knox
Upvote 0

DeaconDean

γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον
Jul 19, 2005
22,183
2,677
61
Gastonia N.C. (Piedmont of N.C.)
✟100,334.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Actually, from the "text book" definition of OSAS, fishcatcher jim is not wrong in the fact that believers of this man made idea think they cannot fall from grace. Scripture has shown otherwise:

Paul states here, 1 Corinthians 9:26-27, that he run the race with endurance (remain faithful and obedient to the gospel) lest he should be cast out aka fall from grace losing salvation.

"I myself should be a castaway,
or rejected, or disapproved of; that is, by men: the apostle's concern is, lest he should do anything that might bring a reproach on the Gospel; lest some corruption of his nature or other should break out, and thereby his ministry be justly blamed, and be brought under contempt; and so he be rejected and disapproved of by men, and become useless as a preacher: not that he feared he should become a reprobate, as the word is opposed to an elect person; or that he should be a castaway eternally, or be everlastingly damned; for he knew in whom he had believed, and was persuaded of his interest in the love of God, and that he was a chosen vessel of salvation, that could not be eternally lost: though supposing that this is his sense, and these his fears and concern, it follows not as neither that he was, so neither that he could be a lost and damned person: the fears of the saints, their godly jealousies of themselves, and pious care that they be not lost, are not at all inconsistent with the firmness of their election, their security in Christ, and the impossibility of their final and total falling away; but on the contrary are overruled, and made use of by the Spirit of God, for their final perseverance in grace and holiness."

Source

Judas "fell by transgression" losing his chance for salvation, Acts 1:25.

In the first place, the issue of Judas being "saved" is highly debatable. If you take Acts 1:25 as the final authority, then you ignore Jesus' own words.

Demas was a brother, but then fell and lost salvation "loving the world", Philemon 1:24; Colossians 4:14; 2 Timothy 4:10

Demas is not a final proof either. I'm sure you know that the NT was not put together according to dates in which they were written.

It is apparent that 2 Tim 4:10 was written before your other proof texts:

"For Demas hath forsaken me
Of this person, (See Gill on Colossians 4:14). It does not appear by what is said in this clause, and in the following, that he entirely apostatized; he might forsake the apostle, and yet not forsake Christ and his interest, or make shipwreck of faith and a good conscience: his faith might be right, though low, and his love sincere, though not fervent; and through a fear of persecution, and loss of life, he might be tempted to leave the apostle, and withdraw from Rome, for his own safety; which though it was far from being commendable in him, yet may be accounted for in this state of frailty and imperfection, consistent with the grace of God; and it should seem that he afterwards was delivered from this temptation, and returned to the apostle, ( Colossians 4:14 ) ( Philemon 1:24 ) for when those epistles were written, both Timothy and Mark, who are here wrote for, ( 2 Timothy 4:9 2 Timothy 4:11 ) were with the apostle, ( Colossians 1:1 ) and ( Philemon 1:1 ) and especially he ought to be thought very well of after all this, if Demas is only a contraction of Demetrius, and he is the same who is so much commended many years after this, in ( 3 John 1:12 ) ,"

Source

Hebrews 6:4-6, is quite a warning to who are in Christ and saved.

I love it especially when "Christians" point to these verses s proof positive for the apostasy of Saints.

On this point, you must go back and read the opening chapter of Hebrews to see to whom this letter/epistle was written to.

Hebrews was written at the time prior to the Temple being destroyed. Hebrews was written when Jews had recently converted to "Christianity". The writer in fact, goes to great lengths to explain the Superiority of Christ over anything in the Temple.

Due to persecutions of the time, it would have been real easy for these new converts, under threat of death or other persecutions, even from other Jews, to revert back into Judaism. That is the primary reason for the clause "there remaineth no sacrifice for sin". If a Jew came to the knowledge of Christ, they could not go back to the Temple and sacrifice.

I really would encourage you to read Arthur W. Pink's work "Exposition of Hebrews" especially the introduction.

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 makes it abundantly clear that those who do not obey the gospel are lost. This includes those in Christ, "they" not specific to non christians, but also to christians as well.

Taking another piece of scripture out of context is not proof.

This passage is all about eschatology. I would say compare Acts 1:9-11, with this passage. When did Jesus ascend up into heaven "in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who know not God"?


Romans 2:7, again remaining faithful by doing the good works as commanded by Jesus and His word, the gospel (James 1:25)

James 2 is still to this day a highly debatable chapter. You see it as having to do good works, I see it as good works giving evidence of my faith.

"To them who by patient continuance in well doing
These words are descriptive of one sort of persons, to whom God will render according to their works; and must be understood not of the Gentiles, the best and most moralized among them; for they sought after worldly things, after human wisdom, and popular applause, and not after God, his honour and glory, nor after immortality, which is only brought to light by the Gospel; nor of the pharisaical Jews, who sought for righteousness by the works of the law, and honour and glory from men, and not from God; nor of any unregenerate persons, but only of such who have the true principles of grace implanted in them, whether Jews or Gentiles: now the things which these men seek after are

glory;
not the glory of this world, nor any from the men of it; but the glory of God and Christ; to be glorious within and without, by the grace and righteousness of Christ here, and to enjoy eternal glory with him hereafter.
Honour;
not that which Adam had in innocence, and did not abide in; but that which is, and abides with Christ, and which all the saints have, and shall have.
Immortality;
not the immortality of the soul, which is common to all; but the incorruption of the body, or the glorious resurrection of it to everlasting life at the great day, or the incorruptible crown, and never fading inheritance of the saints in light. The manner in which these things are sought is, "by patient continuance in well doing"; by doing good works, and by doing these good works well, from a principle of faith and love, and with a view to the glory of God; and by patiently enduring reproaches and sufferings for well doing, and by persevering therein: not that these things are to be had, or are expected by the saints to be had for the sake of patience and well doing; yet they may be sought for, and looked unto, as an encouragement to well doing, and continuance therein; and though not "for", yet "in" well doing there is a reward. These words do not express that for the sake of which glory is had; but only describe the persons who seek, and the manner in which they seek for it, to whom God will render
eternal life,
which he of his rich grace promised them before the world was, and of his free favour has put into the hands of Christ for them, and which, as a pure gift of grace, he bestows on them through him."

Source

Romans 11:22, a warning to those who choose to fall, severity. To those who do good and continue in it, eternal life.

Here again, context plays a huge part.

Donald Grey Barnhouse explains that in this case, Paul has inserted a parenthesis. And being as such, it points back to the issue of Jewish Christians falling back into Judaism.

And here is another item. Just four verses later, does not Paul also say that "all Israel shall be saved"? vs. 26 That verse alone defeats your point.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

DeaconDean

γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον
Jul 19, 2005
22,183
2,677
61
Gastonia N.C. (Piedmont of N.C.)
✟100,334.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
[4] It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, [5] who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, [6] if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

What are your thoughts? (If you can understand my thoughts)

Let me add.

"1. Its Addressees.

Ignoring then the man-made title at the head of our Epistle, we are at once struck by the absence of any Divinely-given one in the opening verses. Nevertheless, its first sentence enables us to identify at once those to whom the Epistle was originally sent: see Hebrews 1:1, 2. They to whom God spake through the prophets were the children of Israel, and it was also unto them He had spoken through His Son. In Hebrews 3:1, we find a word which, however, narrows the circle to which this Epistle was first sent. It was not the Jewish nation at large which was addressed, but the "holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling" among them. Clear confirmation of this is supplied in the Epistles of Peter. His first was addressed, locally, to "the elect sojourners of the Dispersion (Heb. 1:1—Gk., "eklektois parepidenois diasporas"). His second Epistle (see Hebrews 3:1) was addressed, locally and immediately, to the same company. Now in 2 Peter 3:15 the apostle makes specific reference to "our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you." Thus all doubt is removed as to whom our Epistle was first sent.

The Epistle itself contains further details which serve to identify the addressees. That it was written to saints who were by no means young in the faith is clear from Hebrews 5:12. That it was sent to those who had suffered severe persecutions (cf. Acts 8:1) is plain from what we read in Hebrews 10:32. That it was addressed to a Christian community of considerable size is evident from Hebrews 13:24. From this last reference we are inclined to conclude that this Epistle was first delivered to the church in Jerusalem (Acts 11:22), or to the churches in Judea (Acts 9:31), copies of which would be made and forwarded to Jewish Christians in foreign lands. Thus, our Epistle was first addressed to those descendants of Abraham who, by grace, had believed on their Savior-Messiah."

Arthur W. Pink, An Exposition of Hebrews, Introduction

"2. Its Purpose.

This, in a word, was to instruct Jewish believers that Judaism had been superceded by Christianity. It must be borne in mind that a very considerable proportion of the earliest converts to Christ were Jews by natural birth, who continued to labor under Jewish prejudices. In his early Epistles the apostle had touched several times on this point, and sought to wean them from an undue and now untimely attachment to the Mosaic institutions. But only in this Epistle does he deal fully and systematically with the subject.

It is difficult for us to appreciate the position, at the time this Epistle was written, of those in Israel who had believed on the Lord Jesus. Unlike the Gentiles, who, for long centuries past, had lost all knowledge of the true God, and, in consequence, worshipped idols, the Jews had a Divine religion, and a Divinely-appointed place of worship. To be called upon to forsake these, which had been venerated by their fathers for over a thousand years, was to make a big demand upon them. It was natural that even those among them who had savingly believed on Christ should want to retain the forms and ceremonies amid which they had been brought up; the more so, seeing that the Temple still stood and the Levitical priesthood still functioned. An endeavor had been made to link Christianity on to Judaism, and as Acts 21:20 tells us there were many thousands of the early Jewish Christians who were "zealous of the law"—as the next verses clearly show, the ceremonial law.

"Instead of perceiving that under the new economy of things, there was neither Jew nor Gentile, but, that, without reference to external distinctions, all believers in Christ Jesus were now to live together in the closest bonds of spiritual attachment in holy society, they dreamed of the Gentiles being admitted to the participation of the Jewish Church through means of the Messiah, and, that its external economy was to remain unaltered to the end of the world" (Dr. J. Brown).

In addition to their natural prejudices, the temporal circumstances of the believing Jews became increasingly discouraging, yea, presented a sore temptation for them to abandon the profession of Christianity. Following the persecution spoken of in Acts 8:1, that eminent scholar, Adolph Saphir—himself a converted Jew—tells us: "Then arose another persecution of the believers, especially directed against the apostle Paul. Festus died about the year 63, and under the high priest Ananias, who favored the Sadducees, the Christian Hebrews were persecuted as transgressors of the law. Some of them were stoned to death; and though this extreme punishment could not be frequently inflicted by the Sanhedrim, they were able to subject their brethren to sufferings and reproaches which they felt keenly. It was a small thing that they confiscated their goods; but they banished them from the holy places. Hitherto they had enjoyed the privileges of devout Israelites: they could take part in the beautiful and God-appointed services of the sanctuary; but now they were treated as unclean and apostates. Unless they gave up faith in Jesus, and forsook the assembling of themselves together, they were not allowed to enter the Temple, they were banished from the altar, the sacrifice, the high priest, the house of Jehovah.

"We can scarcely realize the piercing sword which thus wounded their inmost heart. That by clinging to the Messiah they were to be severed from Messiah’s people, was, indeed, a great and perplexing trial; that for the hope of Israel’s glory they were banished from the place which God had chosen, and where the divine Presence was revealed, and the symbols and ordinances had been the joy and strength of their fathers; that they were to be no longer children of the covenant and of the house, but worse than Gentiles, excluded from the outer court, cut off from the commonwealth of Israel. This was indeed a sore and mysterious trial. Cleaving to the promises made unto their fathers, cherishing the hope in constant prayer that their nation would yet accept the Messiah, it was the severest test to which their faith could be put, when their loyalty to Jesus involved separation from all the sacred rights and privileges of Jerusalem."

Thus the need for an authoritative, lucid, and systematic setting forth of the real relation of Christianity to Judaism was a pressing one. Satan would not miss the opportunity of seeking to persuade these Hebrews that their faith in Jesus of Nazareth was a mistake, a delusion, a sin. Were they right, while the vast majority of their brethren, according to the flesh, among whom were almost all the respected members of the Sanhedrim and the priesthood, wrong? Had God prospered them since they had become followers of the crucified One? or, did not their temporal circumstances evidence that He was most displeased with them? Moreover, the believing remnant of Israel had looked for a speedy return of Christ to the earth, but thirty years had now passed and He had not come! Yes, their situation was critical, and there was an urgent need that their faith should be strengthened, their understanding enlightened, and a fuller explanation be given them of Christianity in the light of the Old Testament. It was to meet this need that God, in His tender mercy, moved His servant to write this Epistle to them."

Ibid

"3. Its Theme.

This is, the super-abounding excellence of Christianity over Judaism. The sum and substance, the center and circumference, the light and life of Christianity, is Christ. Therefore, the method followed by the Holy Spirit in this Epistle, in developing its dominant theme, is to show the immeasurable superiority of Christ over all that had gone before. One by one the various objects in which the Jews boasted are taken up, and in the presence of the superlative glory of the Son of God they pale into utter insignificance. We are shown First, His superiority over the prophets, Hebrews 1:1-3. Second, His superiority over angels in Hebrews 1:4 to Hebrews 2:18. Third, His superiority over Moses in Hebrews 3:1-19. Fourth, His superiority over Joshua, Hebrews 4:1-13. Fifth, His superiority over Aaron in Hebrews 5:14 to 7:18. Sixth, His superiority over the whole ritual of Judaism, which is developed by showing the surpassing excellency of the new covenant over the old, in Hebrews 7:19 to Hebrews 10:39. Seventh, His superiority over each and all of the Old Testament saints, in Hebrews 11:1 to Hebrews 12:3. In the Lord Jesus, Christians have the substance and reality, of which Judaism contained but the shadows and figures.

If the Lord permits us to go through this Epistle—Oh that He may come for us before—many illustrations and exemplifications of our definition of its theme will come before us. At the moment, we may note how frequently the comparative term "better" is used, thus showing the superiority of what we have in Christianity over what the saints of old had in Judaism. In Hebrews 1:4, Christ is "better than angels;" in Hebrews 7:19, mention is made of a "better hope;" in Hebrews 7:22, of a "better testament" or "covenant; in Hebrews 8:6, of "better promises;" in Hebrews 9:23, of "better sacrifices;" in Hebrews 10:34 of a "better substance;" in Hebrews 11:16, of a "better country;" in Hebrews 11:35, of a "better resurrection," and in Hebrews 11:40, of the "better thing." So, too, we may observe the seven great things mentioned therein, namely: the "great salvation" (Heb. 2:3), the "great High Priest" (Heb. 4:14), the "great Tabernacle" (Heb. 9:11), the "great fight of afflictions" (Heb. 10:32), the "great recompense" (Heb. 10:35), the "great cloud of witnesses" (Heb. 12:1), the "great Shepherd of the sheep" (Heb. 13:20).

Again; in contrast from what the believing Hebrews were called upon to give up, they were reminded of what they had gained. Note how frequently occurs the "we have"—a great High Priest (Heb. 4:14, 8:1), an anchor of the soul (Heb. 6:19), a better and enduring substance (Heb. 10:34), an altar (Heb. 13:10). Once more, we may note how these Hebrews were encouraged to forget the things which were behind and to press toward those which were before. All through this Epistle the forward look is prominent. In Hebrews 1:6 and Hebrews 2:5, mention is made of a "world (or ‘habitable earth’) to come;" in Hebrews 6:5, of an "age to come;" in Hebrews 8:10, of a "new covenant," yet to be made with the house of Israel; in Hebrews 9:11 and Hebrews 10:1, of "good things" to come; in Hebrews 9:28, of a "salvation" to be revealed; in Hebrews 10:37, of the coming Redeemer, in Hebrews 11:14 and Hebrews 13:14, of a "city" yet to be manifested.

Throughout this Epistle great prominence is given to the Priesthood of Christ. The center of Judaism was its temple and the priesthood. Hence the Holy Spirit has here shown at length how that believers now have in Christ the substance of which these supplied but the shadows. The following passages should be carefully weighed:—Hebrews 2:17; 3:1; 4:14, 15; 5:6, 10; 6:20; 7:26; 8:1; 9:11; 10:21. "Though deprived of the temple, with its priesthood and altar and sacrifice, the apostle reminds the Hebrews, ‘we have’ the real and substantial temple, the great High Priest, the true altar, the one sacrifice, and with it all offerings, the true access into the very presence of the Most Holy" (Adolph Saphir)."

ibid

Now, to Heb. 6.

"The exhortation must be viewed in connection with the special circumstances of the Hebrews. After the rejection of the Messiah by Israel, the gospel had been preached unto the Jews by the apostles, and the gifts and power of the Holy Spirit had been manifested among them. The Hebrews had accepted the gospel of the once crucified and now glorified Redeemer, who sent down from heaven the Spirit, a sign of His exaltation, and a pledge of the future inheritance. Having thus entered into the sphere of new covenant manifestation, any one who willfully abandoned it could only relapse into that phase of Judaism which crucified the Lord Jesus. There was no other alternative for them, but either to go on to the full knowledge of the heavenly priesthood of Christ, and to the believer’s acceptance and worship through the Mediator in the sanctuary above, or fall back into the attitude, not of the godly Israelites before Pentecost, such as John the Baptist and those who waited for the promised redemption, nor even into the condition of those for whom the Savior prayed, ‘for they know not what they do’; but into a state of willful conscious enmity against Christ, and the sin of rejecting Him, and putting Him to an open shame" (Adolph Saphir).

"The danger to which this spiritual inertness exposed the Hebrews was such as to justify the strongest language of expostulation and reproof. Apostasy from Christ was a step more easy and natural to a Jewish than to a Gentile believer, because the way was always open and inviting them, as men, to return to those associations which once carried with them the outward sanctification of Jehovah’s name, and which only the power of grace had enabled them to renounce.

It is scarcely accurate to designate as "mere professors" those described in verses 4,5. They were a class who had enjoyed great privileges, beyond any such as now accompany the preaching of the Gospel. Those here portrayed are said to have had five advantages, which is in contrast from the six things enumerated in verses 1, 2, which things belong to man in the flesh, under Judaism. Five is the number of grace, and the blessings here mentioned pertain to the Christian dispensation. Yet were they not true Christians. This is evident from what is not said. Observe, they were not spoken of as God’s elect, as those for whom Christ died, as those who were born of the Spirit. They are not said to be justified, forgiven, accepted in the Beloved. Nor is anything said of their faith, love, or obedience. Yet these are the very things which distinguish a real child of God. First, they had been "enlightened". The Sun of righteousness had shone with healing in His wings, and, as Matthew 4:16 says, "The people which sat in darkness saw great light, and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up". Unlike the heathen, whom Christ, in the days of His flesh, visited not, those who came under the sound of His voice were wondrously and gloriously illumined.

The Greek word for "enlightened" here signifies "to give light or knowledge by teaching". It is so rendered by the Septuagint in Judges 13:8, 2 Kings 12:2, 17:27. The apostle Paul uses it for "to make manifest", or "bring to light" in 1 Corinthians 4:5, 2 Timothy 1:10. Satan blinds the minds of those who believe not, lest "the light of the gospel should shine unto them" (2 Cor. 4:4), that is, give the knowledge of it. Thus, "enlightened" here means to be instructed in the doctrine of the gospel, so as to have a clear apprehension of it. In the parallel passage in Hebrews 10:26 the same people are said to have "received the knowledge of the truth", cf. also 2 Peter 2:20, 21. It is, however, only a natural knowledge of spiritual things, such as is acquired by outward hearing or reading; just as one may be enlightened by taking up the special study of one of the sciences. It falls far short of that spiritual enlightenment which transforms (2 Cor. 3:18). An illustration of a unregenerate person being "enlightened", as here, is found in the case of Balaam; Numbers 24:4.

Second, they had "tasted" of the heavenly gift. To "taste" is to have a personal experience of, in contrast from mere report. "Tasting does not include eating, much less digesting and turning into nourishment what is so tasted; for its nature being only thereby discerned it may be refused, yea, though we like its relish and savor, on some other consideration. The persons here described, then, are those who have to a certain degree understood and relished the revelation of mercy; like the stony-ground hearers they have received the Word with a transcient joy" (John Owen). The "tasting" is in contrast from the "eating" of John 6:50-56.

Opinion is divided as to whether the "heavenly gift" refers to the Lord Jesus or the person of the Holy Spirit. Perhaps it is not possible for us to be dogmatic on the point. Really, the difference is without a distinction, for the Spirit is here to glorify Christ, as He came from the Father by Christ as His ascension "Gift" to His people. If the reference be to the Lord Jesus, John 3:16, 4:10, etc., would be pertinent references: if to the Holy Spirit, Acts 2:38, 8:20, 10:45, 11:17. Personally, we rather incline to the latter. This Divine Gift is here said to be "heavenly" because from Heaven, and leading to Heaven, in contrast from Judaism—cf. Acts 2:2, 1 Peter 1:12. Of this "Gift" these apostates had "tasted", or had an experience of: compare Matthew 27:34 where "tasting" is opposed to actual drinking. Those here in view had had an acquaintance with the Gospel, as to gain such a measure of its blessedness as to greatly aggravate their sin and doom. An illustration of this is found in Matthew 13:20, 21.

Third, they were "made partakers of the Holy Spirit". First, it should be pointed out that the Greek word for "partakers" here is a different one from that used in Colossians 1:12 and 2 Peter 1:4, where real Christians are in view. The word here simply means "companions", referring to what is external rather than internal. It is to be observed that this item is placed in the center of the five, and this because it describes the animating principle of the other four, which are all effects. These apostates had never been "born of the Spirit" (John 3:6), still less were their bodies His "temples" (1 Cor. 6:19). Nor do we believe this verse teaches that the Holy Spirit had, at any time, wrought within them, otherwise Philippians 1:6 would be contravened. It means that they had shared in the benefit of His supernatural operations and manifestations: "The place was shaken" (Acts 4:31) illustrates. We quote below from Dr. J. Brown:

"It is highly probable that the inspired writer refers primarily to the miraculous gifts and operations of the Holy Spirit by which the primitive dispensation of Christianity was administered. These gifts were by no means confined to those who were ‘transformed by the renewing of their minds’. The words of our Lord in Matthew 7:22, 23 and of Paul in 1 Corinthians 13:1, 2 seem to intimate, that the possession of these unrenewed men was not very uncommon in that age; at any rate they plainly show that their possession and an unregenerate state were by no means incompatible".

Fourth, "And have tasted the good Word of God". "I understand by this expression the promise of God respecting the Messiah, the sum and substance of all. It deserves notice that this promise is by way of eminence termed by Jeremiah ‘that good word’ (Jer. 33:14). To ‘taste’, then, this ‘good Word of God’, is to experience that God has been faithful to His promise—to enjoy, so far as an unconverted man can enjoy the blessings and advantages which flow from that promise being fulfilled. To ‘taste the good Word of God’, seems, just to enjoy the advantages of the new dispensation" (Dr. J. Brown). Further confirmation that the apostle is here referring to that which these apostates had witnessed of the fulfillment of God’s promise is obtained by comparing Jeremiah 29:10, "After seventy years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you, and perform My good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place".

Observe how studiously the apostle still keeps to the word "taste", the better to enable us to identify them. They could not say with Jeremiah, "Thy words were found and I did eat them" (Jer. 15:16). "It is as though he said, I speak not of those who have received nourishment; but of such as have so far tasted it, as that they ought to have desired it as ‘sincere milk’ and grown thereby" (Dr. John Owen). A solemn example of one who merely "tasted" the good Word of God is found in Mark 6:20: "for Herod feared John, knowing that he was a just man and an holy, and observed him; and when he heard him, he did many things, and heard him gladly".

Fifth, "And the powers of the world to come," or "age to come." The reference here is to the new dispensation which was to be ushered in by Israel’s Messiah according to Old Testament predictions. It corresponds with "these last days" of Hebrews 1:2, and is in contrast from the "time past" or Mosaic economy. Their Messiah was none other than the "mighty God" (Isa. 9), and wondrous and glorious, stupendous and unique, were His miraculous works. These "powers" of the new Age are mentioned in Hebrews 2:4, to our comments on which we would refer the reader. Of these mighty "powers" these apostates had "tasted", or had an experience of. They had been personal witnesses of the miracles of Christ, and also of the wonders that followed His ascension, when such glorious manifestations of the Spirit were given. Thus they were "without excuse". Convincing and conclusive evidence had been set before them, but there had been no answering faith in their hearts. A solemn example of this is found in John 11:47, 48.

"If they shall fall away". The Greek word here is very strong and emphatic, even stronger than the one used in Matthew 7:27, where it is said of the house built on the sand, "and great was the fall thereof". It is a complete falling away, a total abandonment of Christianity which is here in view. It is a wilful turning of the back on God’s revealed truth, an utter repudiation of the Gospel. It is making "shipwreck of the faith" (1 Tim. 1:19). This terrible sin is not committed by a mere nominal professor, for he has nothing really to fall away from, save an empty name. The class here described are such as had had their minds enlightened, their consciences stirred, their affections moved to a considerable degree, and yet who were never brought from death unto life. Nor is it backsliding Christians who are in view. It is not simply "fall into sin", this or that sin. The greatest "sin" which a regenerated man can possibly commit is the personal denial of Christ: Peter was guilty of this, yet was he "renewed again unto repentance". It is the total renunciation of all the distinguishing truths and principles of Christianity, and this not secretly, but openly, which constitutes apostasy.

"Seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh" (verse 6). This is brought in to show the aggravation of their awful crime and the impossibility of their being renewed again unto repentance. By renouncing their Christian profession they declared Christ to be an Imposter. Thus they were irreclaimable. To attempt any further reasoning with them, would only be casting pearls before swine. With this verse should be carefully compared the parallel passage in Hebrews 10:26-29. These apostates had "received the knowledge of the truth", though not a saving knowledge of it. Afterward they sinned "wilfully": there was a deliberate and open disavowal of the truth. The nature of their particular sin is termed a "treading under foot the Son of God (something which no real Christian ever does) and counting (esteeming) the blood of the covenant an unholy thing", that is, looking upon the One who hung on the Cross as a common malefactor. For such there "remaineth no more sacrifice for sins". Their case is hopeless so far as man is concerned; and the writer believes, such are abandoned by God also.

"Seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put Him to an open shame". "They thus identify themselves with His crucifiers—they entertained and avowed sentiments which were He on earth and in their power, would induce them to crucify Him. They exposed Him to infamy, made a public example of Him. They did more to dishonor Jesus Christ than His murderers did. They never professed to acknowledge His divine mission; but these apostates had made such a profession—they had made a kind of trial of Christianity, and, after trial, had rejected it" (Dr. J. Brown).

Such a warning was needed and well calculated to stir up the slothful Hebrews. Under the Old Testament economy, by means of types and prophecies, they had obtained glimmerings of truth as to Christ, called "the word of the beginning of Christ". Under those shadows and glimmerings they had been reared, not knowing their full import till they had been blessed with the full light of the Gospel, here called "perfection". The danger to which they were exposed was that of receding from the ground where Christianity placed them, and relaxing to Judaism. To do so meant to re-enter that House which Christ had left "desolate" (Matthew 23:38), and would be to join forces with His murderers, and thus "crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh", and by their apostasy "put Him to an open (public) shame". We may add that the Greek word here for "crucify" is a stronger one than is generally used: it means to "crucify up". Attention is thus directed to the erection of the cross on which the Savior was held up to public scorn.

Taking the passage as a whole, it needs to be remembered that all who had professed to receive the Gospel were not born of God: the parable of the Sower shows that. Intelligence might be informed, conscience searched, natural affections stirred, and yet there be "no root" in them. All is not gold that glitters. There has always been a "mixt multitude" (Ex. 12:38) who accompany the people of God. Moreover, there is in the real Christian the old heart, which is "deceitful above all things and desperately wicked", and therefore is he in constant need of faithful warning. Such, God has given in every dispensation: Genesis 2:17; Leviticus 26:15, 16; Matthew 3:8; Romans 11:21; 1 Corinthians 10:12.

Finally, let it be said that while Scripture speaks plainly and positively of the perseverance of the saints, yet it is a perseverance of saints, not unregenerate professors. Divine preservation is not only in a safe state, but also in a holy course of disposition and conduct. We are "kept by the power of God through faith". We are kept by the Spirit working in us a spirit of entire dependency, renouncing our own wisdom and strength. The only place from which we cannot fall is one down in the dust. It is there the Lord brings His own people, weaning them from all confidence in the flesh, and giving them to experience that it is when they are weak they are strong. Such, and such only, are saved and safe forever."

Arthur W. Pink, An Exposition of Hebrews, Apostasy, Hebrews 6:4-6

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

sdowney717

Newbie
Apr 20, 2013
8,712
2,021
✟102,588.00
Faith
Christian
God does not harden those He has saved against the truth because they might sin.
God chooses to not remember their sins any longer, their sins do not count against their salvation.

Hebrews 8
A New Covenant
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

In the He says, He will be merciful to their unrighteousness speaks against hardening them in their sins. It is according to God's mercy and love He has made us born of God. With His laws written on the heart, means if they sin they will seek God's mercy and they will find it, because they are born of God.

The promise in I john is a full restoration of the fellowship.
Christ is seated at the right hand of God and always intercedes for us, simply by just being there, who He is , what He did, Christ's nature is exposed in heaven, of mercy and forgiveness of sins for His holy nation, His own special people.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

sdowney717

Newbie
Apr 20, 2013
8,712
2,021
✟102,588.00
Faith
Christian
Hebrews 7
20 And inasmuch as He was not made priest without an oath 21 (for they have become priests without an oath, but He with an oath by Him who said to Him:

“The Lord has sworn
And will not relent,
‘You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek’”),

22 by so much more Jesus has become a surety of a better covenant.

23 Also there were many priests, because they were prevented by death from continuing.

24 But He, because He continues forever, has an unchangeable priesthood.
25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

26
For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens;

27 who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people’s, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.
28 For the law appoints as high priests men who have weakness, but the word of the oath, which came after the law, appoints the Son who has been perfected forever.

Christ offered up Himself once for the sins of the people, THE PEOPLE here would be those who are His people who have been forgiven all of their sins, as He is our HIGH PRIEST, so the offering up of Himself was for the sins of His people, for you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DeaconDean
Upvote 0

DeaconDean

γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον
Jul 19, 2005
22,183
2,677
61
Gastonia N.C. (Piedmont of N.C.)
✟100,334.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Christ offered up Himself once for the sins of the people, THE PEOPLE here would be those who are His people who have been forgiven all of their sins, as He is our HIGH PRIEST, so the offering up of Himself was for the sins of His people, for you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.

Here again, this helps to re-iterate and enforce what I said earlier.

The writer here shows the Hebrews the superiority of Christ as High Priest over the old priesthood.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
  • Like
Reactions: sdowney717
Upvote 0

paul1149

that your faith might rest in the power of God
Site Supporter
Mar 22, 2011
8,460
5,268
NY
✟674,964.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
Paul
Please reply to my thoughts.

Once we come to Christ to surrender to him as Lord we enter a forgiven state of relationship with God and ARE forgiven.

The fact that we may sin against God following our conversion does not nullify the work of the cross.
Our salvation is already secure. But why we need to confess our sins when they are made known by the Holy Spirit is not to restore our salvation but to restore our relationship with Him.
I am saying this because there are those who seem to think we lose our salvation every time we sin...incorrect...because there is only one cross...but we need to restore a break in our relationship.
I think that's a good way to put it. We haven't lost our legal status, but the relationship isn't right. And the irony is that if that doesn't bother us, one has to suspect the legal status. Christ will say to those who didn't tend their relationship with Him, "I never knew you" - "knew" connoting deep intimate relationship, as between husband and wife.

If we understand the unfathomable price that was paid for our salvation, and if we truly love God and understand that sin still separates us from Him on a practical level, then we are going to take our sin seriously and not take our salvation for granted. At the very least it's due respect to Him who gave everything for us.

Hebrews implies that while bulls and goats could not remove sin consciousness, the blood of Messiah can. So we don't need to have this weighing us down as a rule. But when there is an infraction it needs to be dealt with - again, as 1jn 1.9 instructs.
My understanding is that if we were to lose our salvation it's gone, Hebrews seems to make that clear.
Hebrews 6:4-6 NIV
[4] It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, [5] who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, [6] if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.


What are your thoughts? (If you can understand my thoughts)
This is a related issue. Heb 6 in in my view the most severe warning in the Bible.

1jn 5 tells us that while there are sins that lead to death, not all do. So first-off, we don't have to go here unless something very serious has been done. But even then, I maintain that Heb 6 does not say what many think it says. I recently outlined my thinking on it here.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Marvin Knox

Senior Veteran
May 9, 2014
4,291
1,453
✟84,588.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
All that believe in once saved always saved do.
I believe in once saved always saved and I don't.

If you are talking about the work of our advocate and or the continuing sealing of the Holy Spirit - then yes that is automatic. He doesn't intercede and reseal only if and when we ask. That wouldn't be much of a seal would it?
Ok which way you going with this. Getting saved or after saved
I do believe that we get saved and stay saved the say way - i.e. by grace through faith. Obviously you don't.
Revelation 12:10
And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God.
It's because I am being accused day and night that my High Priest and advocate is also working day and night. That's even when I'm asleep and I darn sure am not asking that He do so while I'm snoring away.
So after being saved you better take advantage of 1John1:9
I do and I have done it all of my Christian life -- urged to do so by the eternally indwelling Holy Spirit who will never leave me nor forsake me.

But I don't do it to get saved over and over again.
 
Upvote 0