If My People

Hammster · Jul 17, 2017

-V- said:
Is 2 Timothy 3:16 a true statement?

If it is, then all Scripture is "for" all of God's people throughout all generations. One just has to realize that being "for" us doesn't preclude being applicable in different ways for different people.

For, not "to".

Hammster · Jul 17, 2017

JCFantasy23 said:
Curious, but do you believe God withdraws certain protections and blessings from "lands" where the majority of people have turned their backs on Him in today's time?

I'm not sure. Certainly something to think about.

Hammster · Jul 17, 2017

TheSeabass said:
It is exactly what the Lord is saying....in context.

Not even close.

11 Thus Solomon finished the house of the LORD and the king's house. All that Solomon had planned to do in the house of the LORD and in his own house he successfully accomplished.
12 Then the LORD appeared to Solomon in the night and said to him: "I have heard your prayer and have chosen this place for myself as a house of sacrifice.
13 When I shut up the heavens so that there is no rain, or command the locust to devour the land, or send pestilence among my people,
14 if my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land.
15 Now my eyes will be open and my ears attentive to the prayer that is made in this place.
16 For now I have chosen and consecrated this house that my name may be there forever. My eyes and my heart will be there for all time.
17 And as for you, if you will walk before me as David your father walked, doing according to all that I have commanded you and keeping my statutes and my rules,
18 then I will establish your royal throne, as I covenanted with David your father, saying, 'You shall not lack a man to rule Israel.'
19 "But if you turn aside and forsake my statutes and my commandments that I have set before you, and go and serve other gods and worship them,
20 then I will pluck you up from my land that I have given you, and this house that I have consecrated for my name, I will cast out of my sight, and I will make it a proverb and a byword among all peoples.
21 And at this house, which was exalted, everyone passing by will be astonished and say, 'Why has the LORD done thus to this land and to this house?'
22 Then they will say, 'Because they abandoned the LORD, the God of their fathers who brought them out of the land of Egypt, and laid hold on other gods and worshiped them and served them. Therefore he has brought all this disaster on them.'" - 2 Chronicles 7:11-22

He's saying when He does something, if they do xyz, He will do something else.

You can't just pluck a verse out and make it say what it never meant.

Hammster · Jul 17, 2017

AlexDTX said:
Yes. In context the people were Israel. However, God gave a new covenant which include all born again believers in Christ. We are his people. What is misleading is to think of national politics. During the Mosaic era Israel was both his people and a political body.

If believers in all nations were to walk with Christ in fullness, forsaking the way of the world and seeking Him alone, the nations would be transformed.

I spent the summer working on a kibbutz in Israel when I was a student at Christ for the Nations as part of my Jewish Studies Minor. As a group we were one. We did a prayer walk around the building we stayed in and took command of the area for Christ. We commanded all demons to leave the building and forbid them from coming back.

The Israeli leader of the kibbutz came into the building and said he could feel a lightness in the air, and he was a typical Jew. There were other Jews in the building with us, but they knew we did not want smoking, although we never told them they could not smoke. It was an experience of spiritual authority in Christ that was profoundly felt by everyone, even though the lost did not know what it was.

Yes, if my people will humble themselves and pray and seek the Lord, He will heal the land.

Do we have to wait for Him shut up the heavens so that there is no rain, or command the locust to devour the land, or send pestilence among His people?

RisenInJesus · Jul 17, 2017

Hammster said:
if my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land. - 2 Chronicles 7:14

For discussion. How is this verse applicable to us today?

If, by "us" you mean the church or U.S. Christians. I don't believe it is applicable as it was for Israel at the time and in the context it was given:

"There’s no way that you can make the prophecies to Israel fit the church, but people try.... For example, you have 2 Chronicles:7:14
If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Dave continues, “Now, there are people who...say, ‘Now, look, if the church in America would just confess her sins, and get right with God, and really—let’s have a campaign of prayer, and pray and pray for our country—God would turn America into a Christian nation.’ But of course, God...never gave the Americans America, and he certainly never gave the Christian Americans America. So they are badly mistaken when they try to apply [2 Chronicles:7:14].”

Tragically, innumerable campaigns, programs, and crusades have been based on this single verse alone—leaving untold millions of believers under the delusion that this is a promise of God for America. Stop right there. Consider the context! The entire chapter is about Solomon’s dedication of the temple and consecration of the nation of Israel to God—an account that starts all the way back in the second chapter. Throughout Scripture, the only nation and the only culture that God addresses as “my people” is Israel and the Jews.

Although it is true that the account of Israel throughout Scripture has various application for believers both personally and corporately, it is a patent falsehood to misapply this promise to the United States—or to any other country. For example, can you picture an evangelistic crusade in China based on 2 Chronicles:7:14? In India? In Syria? Why not? After all, if the promise of this passage is directed to God’s people everywhere (the Bride of Christ), then why not encourage the persecuted church to rise up and proclaim this promise for a communist nation? a Hindu nation? a Muslim nation?

The absurdity of this suggestion should illustrate the seriousness of wresting Bible passages from their context. And yet, even “solid” evangelicals have put their trust in a promise never intended for American believers. But despite decades of political activism and countless perennial prayer events, faith in America’s flag—along with its moral fabric—has continued to unravel. Even culture warrior and psychologist James Dobson acknowledged bleakly in his farewell address at Focus on the Family:

We are awash in evil and the battle is still to be waged. We are right now in the most discouraging period of that long conflict. Humanly speaking, we can say we have lost all those battles...."

Is There any Hope for America? (Part Two)

AlexDTX · Jul 17, 2017

Hammster said:
Do we have to wait for Him shut up the heavens so that there is no rain, or command the locust to devour the land, or send pestilence among His people?

I hope not. However, we know that there will be a great falling away where those who profess Christ will turn their backs on him. I say profess because that implies those who never knew the Lord through the new birth. Even believers need persecution to get them to act on the Word. Sharing the gospel is much harder in first world countries because so few need Jesus. They have their doctors, they are well fed, have comfortable lives with much leisure time to spend on amusements. I have had more fruitful labor in sharing Christ in third world countries where the need for God's help is greater. The falling away will most certainly be in the first world countries.

ChristianFromKazakhstan · Jul 17, 2017

Hammster said:
if my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land. - 2 Chronicles 7:14

For discussion. How is this verse applicable to us today?

Repent!!! Clean your hearts. God's will for ever and ever.

Hammster · Jul 17, 2017

RisenInJesus said:
If, by "us" you mean the church or U.S. Christians. I don't believe it is applicable as it was for Israel at the time and in the context it was given:

"There’s no way that you can make the prophecies to Israel fit the church, but people try.... For example, you have 2 Chronicles:7:14
If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Dave continues, “Now, there are people who...say, ‘Now, look, if the church in America would just confess her sins, and get right with God, and really—let’s have a campaign of prayer, and pray and pray for our country—God would turn America into a Christian nation.’ But of course, God...never gave the Americans America, and he certainly never gave the Christian Americans America. So they are badly mistaken when they try to apply [2 Chronicles:7:14].”

Tragically, innumerable campaigns, programs, and crusades have been based on this single verse alone—leaving untold millions of believers under the delusion that this is a promise of God for America. Stop right there. Consider the context! The entire chapter is about Solomon’s dedication of the temple and consecration of the nation of Israel to God—an account that starts all the way back in the second chapter. Throughout Scripture, the only nation and the only culture that God addresses as “my people” is Israel and the Jews.

Although it is true that the account of Israel throughout Scripture has various application for believers both personally and corporately, it is a patent falsehood to misapply this promise to the United States—or to any other country. For example, can you picture an evangelistic crusade in China based on 2 Chronicles:7:14? In India? In Syria? Why not? After all, if the promise of this passage is directed to God’s people everywhere (the Bride of Christ), then why not encourage the persecuted church to rise up and proclaim this promise for a communist nation? a Hindu nation? a Muslim nation?

The absurdity of this suggestion should illustrate the seriousness of wresting Bible passages from their context. And yet, even “solid” evangelicals have put their trust in a promise never intended for American believers. But despite decades of political activism and countless perennial prayer events, faith in America’s flag—along with its moral fabric—has continued to unravel. Even culture warrior and psychologist James Dobson acknowledged bleakly in his farewell address at Focus on the Family:

We are awash in evil and the battle is still to be waged. We are right now in the most discouraging period of that long conflict. Humanly speaking, we can say we have lost all those battles...."

Is There any Hope for America? (Part Two)

We agree on something. ^_^

Hammster · Jul 17, 2017

AlexDTX said:
I hope not. However, we know that there will be a great falling away where those who profess Christ will turn their backs on him. I say profess because that implies those who never knew the Lord through the new birth. Even believers need persecution to get them to act on the Word. Sharing the gospel is much harder in first world countries because so few need Jesus. They have their doctors, they are well fed, have comfortable lives with much leisure time to spend on amusements. I have had more fruitful labor in sharing Christ in third world countries where the need for God's help is greater. The falling away will most certainly be in the first world countries.

So the verse prior to 14 has no bearing on your understanding?

JESUS=G.O.A.T · Jul 17, 2017

Hammster said:
if my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land. - 2 Chronicles 7:14

For discussion. How is this verse applicable to us today?

It applies to those that are saved today becuase they are called.

The bible also enforces this concept of humbless such as when JESUS says to pick up your cross and follow me....or veres like this one.

Mark 8:35

“For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.”

King James Version (KJV)

The bible also says to turn from wicked ways in the NT and we are also informed that JESUS is willing to forgive us of sins in the NT as well and that he still hears the prayers of the righteous.

So yeah this verse is an applicable verse becuase God in the NT expects humility, , and still expects us to pray and turn away from wicked things, and he still responds to such actions by answering from heaven and forgiving people of sins.

Hammster · Jul 17, 2017

JESUS=G.O.A.T said:
It applies to those that are saved today becuase they are called.

The bible also enforces this concept of humbless such as when JESUS says to pick up your cross and follow me....or veres like this one.

Mark 8:35

“For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.”

King James Version (KJV)

The bible also says to turn from wicked ways in the NT and we are also informed that JESUS is willing to forgive us of sins in the NT as well and that he still hears the prayers of the righteous.

So yeah this verse is an applicable verse becuase God in the NT expects humility, , and still expects us to pray and turn away from wicked things, and he still responds to such actions by answering from heaven and forgiving people of sins.

So it's applicable because it says called, and we should be repentant?

JESUS=G.O.A.T · Jul 17, 2017

Hammster said:
So it's applicable because it says called, and we should be repentant?

it's applicable becuase it says "called by my name" not just called. Also sure part of the application is repentance

Hammster · Jul 17, 2017

JESUS=G.O.A.T said:
it's applicable becuase it says "called by my name" not just called. Also sure part of the application is repentance

Okay. So the previous verse doesn't matter then.

JESUS=G.O.A.T · Jul 17, 2017

Hammster said:
Okay. So the previous verse doesn't matter then.

I mean are you asking about quoting or applying the whole chapter or just a verse. Thought the OP was just about the verse.

Winken · Jul 17, 2017

Hammster said:
if my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land. - 2 Chronicles 7:14

For discussion. How is this verse applicable to us today?

Context is vital to our understanding. The Holy Spirit provides perfect context. In view of that each one of us must conclude that the reference points specifically to Israel in that day, and none other.*

Israel was a people group. If everyone in Israel turned to God, as a people group, their sin of turning away from God would be forgiven.

We, as the Body of Christ, stand forgiven. The USA as a people group does not have that standing. In context, we will never see "our land" healed.

Context!! Each one of us turning to God in confessing Jesus is not based upon that reference. Each one of us turning to God celebrates that we are, each, healed.

*By extension, but not as originally penned, it could point to the Jewish remnant in and after the Tribulation.

JESUS=G.O.A.T · Jul 17, 2017

Winken said:
Context is vital to our understanding. The Holy Spirit provides perfect context. In view of that each one of us must conclude that the reference points specifically to Israel in that day, and none other.*

Israel was a people group. If everyone in Israel turned to God, as a people group, their sin of turning away from God would be forgiven.

We, as the Body of Christ, stand forgiven. The USA as a people group does not have that standing. In context, we will never see "our land" healed.

Context!! Each one of us turning to God in confessing Jesus is not based upon that reference. Each one of us turning to God celebrates that we are, each, healed.

Uh are you saying what I think you're saying? Or in other words are you suggesting that people are born.... without sin?

I can see your take on the verse though if you just take it literally sure but I try to apply what I read because i'm reading the thoughts of God. But just off face value yeah that verse was for Israeli and it's important to apply context as you point out when reading. I believe it's good to apply context but along with that apply it to yourself.

Hammster · Jul 17, 2017

JESUS=G.O.A.T said:
I mean are you asking about quoting or applying the whole chapter or just a verse. Thought the OP was just about the verse.

Yes, the OP is about the verse. I was curious as to how many people would ignore context and make it say something it never meant.

Winken · Jul 17, 2017

JESUS=G.O.A.T said:
Uh are you saying what I think you're saying? Or in other words are you suggesting that people are born.... without sin?

I can see your take on the verse though if you just take it literally sure but I try to apply what I read because i'm reading the thoughts of God. But just off face value yeah that verse was for Israeli and it's important to apply context as you point out when reading. I believe it's good to apply context but along with that apply it to yourself.

No, they were and we are born in sin.

JESUS=G.O.A.T · Jul 17, 2017

Hammster said:
Yes, the OP is about the verse. I was curious as to how many people would ignore context and make it say something it never meant.

I agree that it's specifically written for Israel, just like almost all of the OT is specifically written for a past people or in some cases prophecies for the NT.

I agree context is very important very very important but I also believe it's good to look beyond that as well because the Bible says says to let this mind be in you.. that was also in christ and the Word manifested in flesh was JESUS christ...so we can apply the word in order to do this.

The Evangelist of my church is a good example of what I mean by focusing on both context and application. She preached yesterday and she first talked about the wall of Jericho itself (was preaching from chapter 6 of Joshua) and what it was and the measurements and what it was meant for. But then she applied it in a way God revealed to her for it to be applied for hte congratulation today. That how we expect prayers to be answered all the time right away...she made a side comment about how the universe would be in a funk if that was the case. But anyway how we expect prayers to be straight up answered right away but we don't' realize God wants us to march around the wall for days before it breaks.

Coming from a preacher as God leads you tend to do this with many scriptures ironically she also did this with jeremiah 29:11 a verse we discussed last time I believe, she first talked about the context and the chapter and story behind the verse...and then she turned around and showed how it applies now for the church.

But realistically yes this was written specifically for a past people just like a good chunk of the Bible it's up to us to take it and apply it today. If the Bible wasn't preached in a way that applies to people today, people like myself wouldn't have turned to God. The bible is like the constitution in that although written during a certain time ...you can apply it now. The difference though is it does'nt have the same... trouble the constitution does though although you can argue it has the same level of disputes over it.

JESUS=G.O.A.T · Jul 17, 2017

Winken said:
No, they were and we are born in sin.

oh k just checking I read a certain part of what you stated and was wondering if you were saying that. I get it now.

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