Are women treated unfairly in the Bible?

Beaker · Jul 17, 2017

CrystalDragon said:
I could ask "Do you even read the Bible?" as well. First, if I recall correctly there is only one point, ONE where it's implied the serpent was Satan. And that was in Revelation. This is problematic for several reasons:

1. Revelation almost wasn't in the Bible to begin with

2. It was a surrealist vision

3. It was written centuries after Genesis

4. Genesis itself was written down centuries after the supposed events

5. Before Genesis the stories were passed down orally. It's like the game Telephone. In that game a sentence can be jumbled up in meaning over a few minutes with around 10 people. Multiply that over thousands of people over several hundred years, and you get a heavily distorted story from what actually happened, if it did at all.

6. Every mention of the serpent in Genesis indicates it was just a serpent. Calling it "the craftiest of all the beasts of the field the Lord God had made", indicating it was one of those beasts of the field. God cursing the serpent to slither on the ground, providing an explanation as to why snakes slither today (also saying that they east dust while their tongue is actually used for smelling, but...) wouldn't be a punishment that makes sense if the serpent was Satan shapeshifted.

As for the sexist part, let's take a look at your post again:

You're basically using the Genesis account as an excuse for women to be seen as inferior, which is the terrible justification that was used throughout the Bible to begin with.

but then your catholic Bible and the Protestant Bible also differ. You have books in yours which are NOT in the King James version. I will stick with mine thank you very much - and in it. the serpent IS satan. Who else tries to get people to turn away from God????????

Halbhh · Jul 17, 2017

HeLeadethMe said:
I do not believe the original instructions were temporary.........since Paul gave the reason why women are not to usurp authority over men. Because Eve was the one deceived, not Adam. And Eve was made for Adam, not Adam for Eve. Women are more susceptible to deception......the very qualities that make us good helpmeets and caregivers also make us more vulnerable in certain ways. Men are better suited to steer the ship, and we are better suited to be helpmeets. Doesn't mean we are inferior.....man is born of woman.....so man is not without the woman and woman is not without the man.....we both need each other. But it is for our good and the good of church and home that men take the helm. In this way also we keep the pattern of marriage showing forth as a living parable, the relationship between Christ and the church.

We certainly agree on parts of that, but....both men and women are susceptible to deception, etc. As you already know, all members are part of the body, hands, feet, head, all members of value, to do work for the body.

The most key thing about this -- read 1 Corinthians chapter 8. Instruction to Christians.

What is the message? It's about this.

Can you eat meat, now? See?

That's why I point to the 1/2 page long book Philemon. It's Paul seeming to reverse what he said before, and do a 180. But 1 Cor ch 8 shows you the full picture there.

HeLeadethMe · Jul 17, 2017

AmusingMargaret said:
The Biblical reference is Genesis 19, when Lot offered his two virgin daughters up to be gang raped...for the wicked men to "do with them as you will." Don't you think that's corrupt?

To the best of my knowledge, when the story begins in Genesis 18, God was planning to destroy Sodom and its inhabitants completely, but Abraham interceded (eventually) for the sake of 10, and as we know, the angels did direct Lot, his wife and daughters out of the city before it was destroyed.

I used to think much the same, didn't think too highly of Lot for that, however, came to realize that the bible only ever speaks well of Lot, saying that he was a righteous man. I shared a little something that the Lord was showing us about Lot, it might have got lost in the shuffle, but you might find it edifying as well. I'll paste it below (from post #31), bless you:

Lot was a righteous man, so we can be sure he loved and cherished his daughters. In the ethics and value system of that time and place, hospitality came with a solemn duty of honour to protect and provide for one's guests who had come under your roof for shelter. Not only that, but his guests in this case were holy angels....and it was too much for his righteous soul to bear to allow them to be given over to the depraved men of Sodom. In offering his daughter, he was making a terrible sacrifice, similar to Abraham obeying the Lord in offering his son Isaac......you could say this was Lot's rock and hard place.....and the result was that he still had the angels under his roof to pull he and his family to safety when God's judgment was about to fall on Sodom.

Halbhh · Jul 17, 2017

HeLeadethMe said:
however, came to realize that the bible only ever speaks well of Lot, saying that he was a righteous man.

We do know Lot committed some wrongs, things not righteous.

I was able to find a bit in an epistle from Peter (many centuries later in time) calling Lot "righteous", but from that context this is in comparison to the city of Sodom, where even charity was entirely absent and the poor starved.
Lot as 'righteous' in comparison to that extreme level of evil. Not 'righteous' to the level like Job or such. Lot as at least believing in God, a basic believer.

This doesn't answer about why women are often treated like animals long ago!

It's very much like slavery.

Slavery itself was universal in the world, all nations, all peoples, everywhere.

The remarkable thing about Israel is the steps upward from just brutal slavery into gradually more regulated slavery that included automatic freedom even for escaped slaves, and other surprising laws. New to the world. Steps upwards from brutality towards better law, over time.

The Old Testament is a gradual progression towards a more and better Rule of Law.

Slow. Baby steps. Over time.

Upwards.

..

CrystalDragon · Jul 17, 2017

Beaker said:
but then your catholic Bible and the Protestant Bible also differ. You have books in yours which are NOT in the King James version. I will stick with mine thank you very much - and in it. the serpent IS satan. Who else tries to get people to turn away from God????????

Care to give verses that prove that? Anyone can claim something, or claim that it is true, with the only evidence being "because I/this document said so".

2PhiloVoid · Jul 17, 2017

CrystalDragon said:
I wonder why Jesus didn't abolish slavery though? According to the Bible at least, he said for slaves to be obedient to their masters.

Actually, He kind of did...it's just that people, even Christians, aren't always the best listeners.

ChristianFromKazakhstan · Jul 17, 2017

OzSpen said:
Chapter and verses please for women being more sinful than men.

It's time for you to do more in-depth exegesis and exposition to expose the silliness of your statement 'that from that excessive sinfulness [by Eve] the way to be saved is through childbirth.

Sorry mate, the Bible teaches that salvation is by grace through faith (Eph 2:8-9).

1 Tim 2:15 (ESV) states, 'Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control'. The singular 'she' and the plural 'they' should be enough to alert you to something challenging in the interpretation.

Oz

I prefer to believe the Bible, even if people don't like what it says. It's God's word! The final authority. God says so, it means it's so!!!

ChristianFromKazakhstan · Jul 17, 2017

2PhiloVoid said:
Hi ChristianFromKazakhstan,

It's been a while since I've spoken to you. I hope you're doing well.

I just happened to see your posts in this thread so I thought I'd take a moment to say that I think the interpretation you're currently holding does need to be reconsidered in the light of additional factors and evidence within the overall bounds of the Scriptures. It fact, the book I suggested above in post #7 directly deals with this issue which Paul about writes to Timothy.

Being that you're in another country, I know you might not be able to just 'order it up'--I don't know, maybe you can from where you're at. But there are some additional hermeneutical factors to bring into the interpretive process that modify what Paul's text merely looks like as it sits in an "English" bible.

Just something to think about. I hope you're doing well where you're at.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

Hi. I can order any book on the planet. Internet age. As long as the postal system doesn't fail me, and it very rarely does. Almost 100% reliable. But I won't order the book you recommend for the reason of already clearly understanding 1 Tim 2. It can't be clearer.

Women are more sinful than men by nature. It's absolutely evident from life around us. Men are also smarter. Therefore, they are leaders and can have position of authority before God. Women must work harder to become obedient to God and to authority. Because Eve sinned first, not Adam. He was stronger and withstood the temptation better. Childbirth is the salvation of women in the sense of excessive sinfulness. All religions recognize these basic facts of our lives.

Halbhh · Jul 17, 2017

ChristianFromKazakhstan said:
I prefer to believe the Bible, even if people don't like what it says. It's God's word! The final authority. God says so, it means it's so!!!

Good! But do not jump to a conclusion from one verse, or just a few verses. Learn by reading full books, from beginning to the end, and then you get the real meanings.

You will read the chapter 1 Corinthians 8 at some time, and then learn how to know what Paul meant by telling slaves to remain slaves.

And why Paul later wrote the opposite in Philemon.

It will make sense after you understand 1 Cor 8.

Paul is like that. You need to read entire books of his to get the correct meanings of some verses of his.

In other words, if you believe it is "God's word", then read all of it, not just pieces.

CrystalDragon · Jul 17, 2017

ChristianFromKazakhstan said:
I prefer to believe the Bible, even if people don't like what it says. It's God's word! The final authority. God says so, it means it's so!!!

God didn't necessarily say so. The writers of the Bible say so. Notice that nowhere when God says something does he say "A collection of books will be compiled into one, and every word of the Holy Bible is true". We just hear two separate people saying that "All Scripture is God-breathed" before some of the Scripture was even written, many books were considered for the Bible but didn't cut it, it took centuries to establish some doctrines, and we only have four Gospels because one bishop liked the number 4.

Halbhh · Jul 17, 2017

CrystalDragon said:
God didn't necessarily say so. The writers of the Bible say so. Notice that nowhere when God says something does he say "A collection of books will be compiled into one, and every word of the Holy Bible is true". We just hear two separate people saying that "All Scripture is God-breathed" before some of the Scripture was even written, many books were considered for the Bible but didn't cut it, it took centuries to establish some doctrines, and we only have four Gospels because one bishop liked the number 4.

Here's a good analogy. Suppose you have an old, cracked, and patched window, and you see it as imperfect. Question: will the old, cracked, patched window let sunlight through?

Will the sunlight coming through an imperfect window illuminate you?

It can illuminate as effectively in full sunlight as a perfect new window with zero flaws can.

Because it's the light that matters, not the glass.

When we say "the Word" -- we mean that light, the real thing the words allow to pass to us. Not particular translations of particular books, even though some are clearly very good. Not those particulars. The Light Itself.

Of course, you can also see that certain wordings are simply the real thing, wordings like these: "Love one another". "Love your neighbor as yourself".

2PhiloVoid · Jul 17, 2017

ChristianFromKazakhstan said:
Hi. I can order any book on the planet. Internet age. As long as the postal system doesn't fail me, and it very rarely does. Almost 100% reliable. But I won't order the book you recommend for the reason of already clearly understanding 1 Tim 2. It can't be clearer.

Women are more sinful than men by nature. It's absolutely evident from life around us. Men are also smarter. Therefore, they are leaders and can have position of authority before God. Women must work harder to become obedient to God and to authority. Because Eve sinned first, not Adam. He was stronger and withstood the temptation better. Childbirth is the salvation of women in the sense of excessive sinfulness. All religions recognize these basic fact of our lives.

It's funny you say that. I know a certain woman from Kazakhstan who, even though having lived under the former Communist rule and within the "muslim" culture of Kazakhstan, later became a Christian. And the "surprising thing" is, from what I can tell of her relationship with her husband, she not only has him outclassed by leaps and bounds in IQ, but she actually does more for people than he's been able to do. And she's been much less prone to sin in her life. Again, as far as I can tell ....

And as to Paul's injunction about women in 1 Timothy 2:11-15, I do believe that Paul was not writing to a church that sat in a cultural vaccuum, so there are other things to consider that existed at the time in the Greecian, Corinthian culture.

So, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this, brother.

Peace in Christ,
2PhiloVoid

HeLeadethMe · Jul 17, 2017

Halbhh said:
We do know Lot committed some wrongs, things not righteous.

I was able to find a bit in an epistle from Peter (many centuries later in time) calling Lot "righteous", but from that context this is in comparison to the city of Sodom, where even charity was entirely absent and the poor starved.
Lot as 'righteous' in comparison to that extreme level of evil. Not 'righteous' to the level like Job or such. Lot as at least believing in God, a basic believer.

This doesn't answer about why women are often treated like animals long ago!

It's very much like slavery.

Slavery itself was universal in the world, all nations, all peoples, everywhere.

The remarkable thing about Israel is the steps upward from just brutal slavery into gradually more regulated slavery that included automatic freedom even for escaped slaves, and other surprising laws. New to the world. Steps upwards from brutality towards better law, over time.

The Old Testament is a gradual progression towards a more and better Rule of Law.

Slow. Baby steps. Over time.

Upwards.

..

2 Peter is the reference I had in mind......but where do we find in the bible that Lot was not righteous....I have not come across anything that says that, rather the opposite is said, and keep in mind that he is an ensample of how God delivers the righteous:

2 Peter 2:6-9

And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:

(For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds. )

The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished

Halbhh · Jul 17, 2017

HeLeadethMe said:
2 Peter is the reference I had in mind......but where do we find in the bible that Lot was not righteous....I have not come across anything that says that, rather the opposite is said, and keep in mind that he is an ensample of how God delivers the righteous:

2 Peter 2:6-9

And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:

(For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds. )

The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished

I think we agree fully there. Perhaps you saw the earlier version before I edited about the "righteousness" of Lot. Here is the better wording I put in --

"... calling Lot "righteous"...is in comparison to the city of Sodom, where even charity was entirely absent and the poor starved.
Lot as 'righteous' in comparison to that extreme level of evil. Not 'righteous' to the level like Job or such. Lot as at least believing in God, a basic believer."

Does that help?

Since Lot apparently had faith, he would then have a righteousness through faith (as Paul explains for others in Hebrews),

But that does not equate to all his actions all being "righteousness".

It was not 'righteous' to offer up his daughters, but merely desperate. I was trying to help explain the wording in 2 Peter as to what that 'righteousness' actually was.

HeLeadethMe · Jul 17, 2017

2PhiloVoid said:
It's funny you say that. I know a certain woman from Kazakhstan who, even though having lived under the former Communist rule and within the "muslim" culture of Kazakhstan, later became a Christian. And the "surprising thing" is, from what I can tell of her relationship with her husband, she not only has him outclassed by leaps and bounds in IQ, but she actually does more for people than he's been able to do. And she's been much less prone to sin in her life. Again, as far as I can tell ....

And as to Paul's injunction about women in 1 Timothy 2:11-15, I do believe that Paul was not writing to a church that sat in a cultural vaccuum, so there are other things to consider that existed at the time in the Greecian, Corinthian culture.

So, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this, brother.

Peace in Christ,
2PhiloVoid

I agree......it is not that women are more sinful, we are just more easily deceived than men and we generally have 'softer' qualities......we need a little oversight from male leadership....protection, covering. Like in any war, men are the first line of defense/offense in this spiritual war we are in. Jesus was born as a man....not as a woman.

HeLeadethMe · Jul 17, 2017

Halbhh said:
I think we agree fully there. Perhaps you saw the earlier version before I edited about the "righteousness" of Lot. Here is the better wording I put in --

"... calling Lot "righteous"...is in comparison to the city of Sodom, where even charity was entirely absent and the poor starved.
Lot as 'righteous' in comparison to that extreme level of evil. Not 'righteous' to the level like Job or such. Lot as at least believing in God, a basic believer."

Does that help?

Since Lot apparently had faith, he would then have a righteousness through faith (as Paul explains for others in Hebrews),

But that does not equate to all his actions all being "righteousness".

It was not 'righteous' to offer up his daughters, but merely desperate. I was trying to help explain the wording in 2 Peter as to what that 'righteousness' actually was.

Well, give it some thought brother.......in sacrificially offering his daughters in order to spare the holy angels (one of whom might have been Christ) Lot was showing that he loved God more than his own flesh and blood........just as Jesus said we are to be the same if we are to be worthy of Him. It fits the description of him being righteous. Bless you.

ChristianFromKazakhstan · Jul 17, 2017

2PhiloVoid said:
It's funny you say that. I know a certain woman from Kazakhstan who, even though having lived under the former Communist rule and within the "muslim" culture of Kazakhstan, later became a Christian. And the "surprising thing" is, from what I can tell of her relationship with her husband, she not only has him outclassed by leaps and bounds in IQ, but she actually does more for people than he's been able to do. And she's been much less prone to sin in her life. Again, as far as I can tell ....

And as to Paul's injunction about women in 1 Timothy 2:11-15, I do believe that Paul was not writing to a church that sat in a cultural vaccuum, so there are other things to consider that existed at the time in the Greecian, Corinthian culture.

So, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this, brother.

Peace in Christ
2PhiloVoid

She overcame her excessive sinfulness, most likely through childbirth and with power of Jesus. That's great.

Kazakhstan was never Muslim like Saudi Arabia or even Turkey. Nominally and with 90% Shamanism and 10% watered-down Islam. Only very very recently, in the past 26 years, a mass-Islamization started with billions of funds pouring into Muslim prozelitation of Kazakhstan since the fall of the USSR from Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Egypt, Iran etc. Christian missionaries, like 95% of them, alas, were a total total criminals and phonies and fakes and frauds... Too bad!!! They damaged the cause of Christ worse than Satan himself and continue to do so...

Kazakh women were never oppressed by men in history, being equals in our free tribal democratic nomadic society. Only recently with the advent of Islam, some of them have appropriated the numb slave role, which to me is absolutely disgusting. It's a mockery of human beings to be like that...

ChristianFromKazakhstan · Jul 17, 2017

HeLeadethMe said:
I agree......it is not that women are more sinful, we are just more easily deceived than men and we generally have 'softer' qualities......we need a little oversight from male leadership....protection, covering. Like in any war, men are the first line of defense/offense in this spiritual war we are in. Jesus was born as a man....not as a woman.

Why do you choose to reject the words of the Holy Bible?? It does say that women are more sinful, it's a hard fact from God. Also life shows it. Only in submission to men and childbirth this excessive sinfulness of women can be controlled.

2PhiloVoid · Jul 17, 2017

ChristianFromKazakhstan said:
She overcame her excessive sinfulness, most likely through childbirth and with power of Jesus. That's great.

Maybe. Maybe not, Christian.

Kazakhstan was never Muslim like Saudi Arabia or even Turkey. Nominally and with 90% Shamanism and 10% watered-down Islam. Only very very recently, in the past 26 years, a mass-Islamization started with billions of funds pouring into Muslim prozelitation into Kazakhstan since the fall of the USSR from Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Egypt, Iran etc. Christian missionaries, like 95% of them, alas, were a total total criminals and phonies and fakes and frauds... Too bad!!! They damaged Christ worse than satan himself. Kazakh women were never oppressed by men in history, being equals in our free tribal democratic nomadic society. Only recently with the advent of Islam, some of them have appropriated the numb slave role, which to me is absolutely disgusting. It's a mockery of human beings to be like that...

Yep. I know. That's why i put the word muslim in scare-quotes in my previous post (e.g. "muslim").

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

ChristianFromKazakhstan · Jul 17, 2017

CrystalDragon said:
God didn't necessarily say so. The writers of the Bible say so. Notice that nowhere when God says something does he say "A collection of books will be compiled into one, and every word of the Holy Bible is true". We just hear two separate people saying that "All Scripture is God-breathed" before some of the Scripture was even written, many books were considered for the Bible but didn't cut it, it took centuries to establish some doctrines, and we only have four Gospels because one bishop liked the number 4.

11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I allow not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Are women treated unfairly in the Bible?

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