Where was the house of Israel in the 1st century?

A71 · Jun 7, 2017

bloodygrace said:
Could you please stick to the topic at hand which is the ethnic house of Israel in the 1st century. There are many examples of the house Judah (Judah and Benjamin) in the 1st century and Jew is actually a shortened version of Judah but almost none for the ten northern tribes. This is important because the house of Israel was included in the new covenant promise and with them being absent and the Gentiles receiving the Holy Spirit it seems obvious that the house of Israel was replaced by the Israel of God or Gentile believers.

The Samaritan woman by the well was an Israelite, she refers to her tribe's father Jacob.

Jesus went to the whole house of Israel. James sent his letter to the 12 tribes. Peter also was writing to the other tribes. It was clearly well known who the tribes were and where they were 2000 years ago. Jesus refers to the Centurion as an Israelite also....there's an interesting thought, that the Romans were......I'll keep you guessing on that one.

Rainrider · Jun 7, 2017

bloodygrace said:
If you married outside your tribe the line was broken. These are not my rules they come from God and are found in the Torah which you are so fond of. God did prohibit marriage with the heathen or non-Jews.

If a women married out side her tribe, she was made a part of the tribe she married into. The men always remained a part of the tribe they born into.

Rainrider · Jun 7, 2017

bloodygrace said:
Many on this forum are quick to point out that the new covenant promise was only for the house of Judah and the house of Israel but can never come to terms with the fact that only the house of Judah remained in the 1st century. All the disciples of Christ were most likely from Judah or Benjamin aka the house of Judah. Jesus was from Judah. Paul was from Benjamin. The Samaritans who were some of the remnants of the house of Israel or the ten northern tribes were rejected by the Jews as a mixed people. Now there were a few remnants of the house of Israel like the few Levites who were still in charge of the temple and a solitary Anna from the tribe of Ashur but as for full functioning tribes the ten were lost to history.

The ten northern tribes or the house of Israel were lost to history 2000 years ago so the dispensational notions of God fulfilling his promise to ethnic tribes in the future are bogus and without merit. God does not deal in worthless genealogies anymore. Those that have faith are accepted by him Jew and Gentile alike. Paul quotes the prophet Hosea in Romans 9 and applies it to the Gentiles indicating that they were brought in to fill the fallen ranks - Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. Rom. 9:24-26

What we are seeing happening with Israel today is a return to the land. All tribes are returning, The idea that the 10 N. tribes were lost, and couldn't be found is kind of funny. HaShem always knew where every one of them were. If He didn't bring them home, (note, He didn't say every single person would return) He would be found guilty of sin Him self. That would make salvation a mote point for everyone.
Isa 66:20
They will bring the remnant of your people back from every nation. They will bring them to my holy mountain in Jerusalem as an offering to the LORD. They will ride on horses, in chariots and wagons, and on mules and camels,” says the LORD.
I am not sure where you heard that Yeshua came only for the people of Avraham, when the Bible tells us it was for the Jews first, then the gentile.
Rom. 1:16 For I am not ashamed of this Good News about Christ. It is the power of God at work, saving everyone who believes—the Jew first and also the Gentile.

Rainrider · Jun 7, 2017

A71 said:
The Levites all joined with Judah before the Northern Kingdom was abolished.

The ten northern tribes or the house of Israel were lost to history 2000 years ago
Not really. They can still be traced, just about

so the dispensational notions of God fulfilling his promise to ethnic tribes in the future are bogus
Correct conclusion, wrong premise. The promises were fulfilled in the 1st Century.
and without merit. God does not deal in worthless genealogies anymore.

Those that have faith are accepted by him Jew and Gentile alike. Paul quotes the prophet Hosea in Romans 9 and applies it to the Gentiles indicating that they were brought in to fill the fallen ranks - Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. Rom. 9:24-26

Rom. 11 is the best example of that. It tells us with no room to wiggle.

bloodygrace · Jun 9, 2017

A71 said:
The Samaritan woman by the well was an Israelite, she refers to her tribe's father Jacob.

Jesus went to the whole house of Israel. James sent his letter to the 12 tribes. Peter also was writing to the other tribes. It was clearly well known who the tribes were and where they were 2000 years ago. Jesus refers to the Centurion as an Israelite also....there's an interesting thought, that the Romans were......I'll keep you guessing on that one.

The Samaritan woman was not an ethnic Israelite, end of story. The Samaritans were rejected by the Jews as a mixed people and rightly so.

bloodygrace · Jun 9, 2017

Rainrider said:
If a women married out side her tribe, she was made a part of the tribe she married into. The men always remained a part of the tribe they born into.

So the question remains are there physical remnants of the ten northern tribes of Israel? Remember, the Samaritans who were some of the remnants of the house of Israel were rejected by the Jews 2000 years ago.

A71 · Jun 23, 2017

Rainrider said:
Rom. 11 is the best example of that. It tells us with no room to wiggle.

yup

A71 · Jun 23, 2017

bloodygrace said:
The Samaritan woman was not an ethnic Israelite, end of story. The Samaritans were rejected by the Jews as a mixed people and rightly so.

Irrelevant what the Jews thought. God tells us she was an Israelite. Now that is 'end of story'

Copperhead · Jul 17, 2017

The problems that arise in discussions like "lost tribes", is that many fail to read their bible. That seems to stem from very few really study the OT as they should. Which seems strange, since Jesus Himself said the volume of the book (OT) was written of Him. And, likewise, the Bereans were commended by Paul for searching the scriptures (OT) to prove what he said was true. There were at least 4 tribes living in Judah before either kingdom went into captivity... Judah, Benjamin, Simeon, and Levi. Remember, Levi was given cities, not a division of land. Simeon was given land within Judah.

And 2 Chronicles 11 showed that when Jeroboam was establishing idolatry in the northern kingdom, the Levites up there, along with those that remained faithful to God from the other tribes, migrated south and built up the southern kingdom of Rehoboam. Later in 2 Chronicles 15:9, when Asa was running the north, another great company of Israel joined came to the southern kingdom.

In 2 Chronicles 34 we see during the reign of Josiah in the southern kingdom, long after the northern kingdom has been conquered by Assyria, that monies collected from all the remnant of Israel was taken to Jerusalem to repair the temple.

According to archeology, only 27,290 of Israel and 50 chariots were carried off by Sargon in the Assyrian conquest of the northern kingdom. It is estimated that over 400,000 Israelites lived in the northern kingdom at the time. Those that were also taken as slaves, which are valuable property, it is untenable to think that Assyrians just let them wander off to Europe or wherever. Assyria had the reputation of bringing in captives of other lands into lands they conquered to commingle them and break down identities to prevent revolts.

Upon the return after the captivity to Babylon, the remnant that returned are called Jews 8 times and Israel 40 times by Ezra. Nehemiah used Jews 11 times and Israel 22 times.

Anna, in Matthew, was an old woman and it is made mention that she was of the tribe of Asher. Given her age, it is clear that those of Asher had been in the land for at least 100 years prior to Anna.

And Acts 2 has already been addressed in previous posts.

The "lost tribes" thing by those that hold it, usually has an unscriptural agenda associated with it. Like the British-Israelism idea, among many others. Unfortunately, Khabbalistic ideas by some Jews haven't helped either. The imaginings of man can really mess things up. And it has led to some very bad events in history and rejection of the modern state of Israel.

Ezekiel was told to lie on one side, then the other, for a specified period of days to show the years Israeli would be punished. Ezekiel 4. Came to a total of 430 years. 70 of those ticked off in the Babylonian captivity. That left 360 years.

Only a fraction of the captives returned. Most stayed in Babylon in rejection of God. So Leviticus 26 gets applied. If the nation remained in rebellion, the punishment of 7 times would be applied.

Multiply the remaining 360 years by 7, and it comes to 2520 years. Apply that when the decree by Cyrus to restore the temple was issued, compensate for more realistic 365 days a year instead of the ancient calendar of 360 days a year, and you come to May 1948, when modern Israel was established.

If you apply the 2520 years to when Darius later reaffirmed the Cyrus decree, you come to June of 1967, when modern Israel recaptured all of Jerusalem.

bloodygrace · Jul 18, 2017

No the real problem is that dispensationalism has taught Christians for 200 years that God's promises are to the ethnic houses of Israel and this is patently false. God's promises are to the children of faith only. Even in the 1st century there was a remnant of Israel that was saved from within the main body. So it doesn't matter what tribes are here, there or anywhere. It only matters whether someone has accepted Christ as their savior, Jew and Gentile alike. Could Paul have been saved simply because he was born from the tribe of Benjamin? NO, he could not.

Copperhead · Jul 18, 2017

bloodygrace said:
No the real problem is that dispensationalism has taught Christians for 200 years that God's promises are to the ethnic houses of Israel and this is patently false. God's promises are to the children of faith only. Even in the 1st century there was a remnant of Israel that was saved from within the main body. So it doesn't matter what tribes are here, there or anywhere. It only matters whether someone has accepted Christ as their savior, Jew and Gentile alike. Could Paul have been saved simply because he was born from the tribe of Benjamin? NO, he could not.

Much longer than 200 years. The prophets of the OT come to mind. And early on in the Christian era, Ephraim the Syrian around the 4th century comes to mind. Also, one of the most prolific commentators on scripture, Sir Isaac Newton, a full century before Darby was born, or the other newcomers came on the scene. Seems like pretty good company to me.

About the time of the end, a body of men will be raised up who will turn their attention to the prophecies, and insist upon their literal interpretation, in the midst of much clamor and opposition. -Sir Isaac Newton

But you are correct on one issue, it truly matters most about the relationship with Messiah.

A71 · Jul 19, 2017

Romans 9 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: 4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; 5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

You're on your own with that BG & Copperhead

A71 · Jul 19, 2017

Copperhead said:
The problems that arise in discussions like "lost tribes", is that many fail to read their bible. That seems to stem from very few really study the OT as they should. Which seems strange, since Jesus Himself said the volume of the book (OT) was written of Him. And, likewise, the Bereans were commended by Paul for searching the scriptures (OT) to prove what he said was true. There were at least 4 tribes living in Judah before either kingdom went into captivity... Judah, Benjamin, Simeon, and Levi. Remember, Levi was given cities, not a division of land. Simeon was given land within Judah.

And 2 Chronicles 11 showed that when Jeroboam was establishing idolatry in the northern kingdom, the Levites up there, along with those that remained faithful to God from the other tribes, migrated south and built up the southern kingdom of Rehoboam. Later in 2 Chronicles 15:9, when Asa was running the north, another great company of Israel joined came to the southern kingdom.

In 2 Chronicles 34 we see during the reign of Josiah in the southern kingdom, long after the northern kingdom has been conquered by Assyria, that monies collected from all the remnant of Israel was taken to Jerusalem to repair the temple.

According to archeology, only 27,290 of Israel and 50 chariots were carried off by Sargon in the Assyrian conquest of the northern kingdom. It is estimated that over 400,000 Israelites lived in the northern kingdom at the time. Those that were also taken as slaves, which are valuable property, it is untenable to think that Assyrians just let them wander off to Europe or wherever. Assyria had the reputation of bringing in captives of other lands into lands they conquered to commingle them and break down identities to prevent revolts.

Upon the return after the captivity to Babylon, the remnant that returned are called Jews 8 times and Israel 40 times by Ezra. Nehemiah used Jews 11 times and Israel 22 times.

Anna, in Matthew, was an old woman and it is made mention that she was of the tribe of Asher. Given her age, it is clear that those of Asher had been in the land for at least 100 years prior to Anna.

And Acts 2 has already been addressed in previous posts.

The "lost tribes" thing by those that hold it, usually has an unscriptural agenda associated with it. Like the British-Israelism idea, among many others. Unfortunately, Khabbalistic ideas by some Jews haven't helped either. The imaginings of man can really mess things up. And it has led to some very bad events in history and rejection of the modern state of Israel.

Ezekiel was told to lie on one side, then the other, for a specified period of days to show the years Israeli would be punished. Ezekiel 4. Came to a total of 430 years. 70 of those ticked off in the Babylonian captivity. That left 360 years.

Only a fraction of the captives returned. Most stayed in Babylon in rejection of God. So Leviticus 26 gets applied. If the nation remained in rebellion, the punishment of 7 times would be applied.

Multiply the remaining 360 years by 7, and it comes to 2520 years. Apply that when the decree by Cyrus to restore the temple was issued, compensate for more realistic 365 days a year instead of the ancient calendar of 360 days a year, and you come to May 1948, when modern Israel was established.

If you apply the 2520 years to when Darius later reaffirmed the Cyrus decree, you come to June of 1967, when modern Israel recaptured all of Jerusalem.

Very interesting. Especially the dates at the end. Bravo, although I come out at 1947 and 17 years later is 1964...but the 1947 date is very close and needs inspection

Copperhead · Jul 19, 2017

Did you account for the fact that there is no year "0" or did you just add the numbers of years to 536 BC? One cannot just add the years to -536 to get the sum, or yes, you get 1947. Factor out the nonexistent year "0" and you get 1948.

A71 · Jul 19, 2017

It works from 537BC. Trouble is most historians take 539BC for Cyrus taking Babylon. I take 538BC, but is still a year out.

Copperhead · Jul 19, 2017

Many references I find state that it was 536 BC on the initial decree. Again, you have to factor out that there is no "year zero". There is only 1 BC and 1 AD. So do the math from 536 BC and you do come to 1947. Factor out that there is no year zero between BC and AD, you get 1948.

536 BC the decree.
2520 years times 360 day ancient calendar reckoning, and that is 907200 days.
907200 divided by a 365.25 day calendar and that is 2483.78 years.
-536 plus 2483 is 1947
Factor out that there is no year Zero, and that makes it 1948.

Simple, eh?

bloodygrace · Jul 19, 2017

A71 said:
Romans 9 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: 4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; 5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

You're on your own with that BG & Copperhead

His kinsman according to the flesh were promised a Messiah who would save them from their sins. They rejected Christ and so were cut off from the promise of God.

For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, Rom 4:13-16

Steve Petersen · Jul 19, 2017

bloodygrace said:
No the real problem is that dispensationalism has taught Christians for 200 years that God's promises are to the ethnic houses of Israel and this is patently false. God's promises are to the children of faith only. Even in the 1st century there was a remnant of Israel that was saved from within the main body. So it doesn't matter what tribes are here, there or anywhere. It only matters whether someone has accepted Christ as their savior, Jew and Gentile alike. Could Paul have been saved simply because he was born from the tribe of Benjamin? NO, he could not.

Romans 11:25-33

A71 · Jul 19, 2017

Copperhead said:
Many references I find state that it was 536 BC on the initial decree. Again, you have to factor out that there is no "year zero". There is only 1 BC and 1 AD. So do the math from 536 BC and you do come to 1947. Factor out that there is no year zero between BC and AD, you get 1948.

536 BC the decree.
2520 years times 360 day ancient calendar reckoning, and that is 907200 days.
907200 divided by a 365.25 day calendar and that is 2483.78 years.
-536 plus 2483 is 1947
Factor out that there is no year Zero, and that makes it 1948.

Simple, eh?

.78 years = 9.25 months.
May 14 = 5.5 months, so that leaves 3.25 months which then run into 537BC.

So around September 22 537BC is the correct start date.

Copperhead · Jul 19, 2017

bloodygrace said:
His kinsman according to the flesh were promised a Messiah who would save them from their sins. They rejected Christ and so were cut off from the promise of God.

Make sure you look at all the words of those verses. Both physical and spiritual is in view.

"to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham"

And while we are in Romans, don't forget to study chapters 9, 10, and 11 which includes this little morsel:

Romans 11:28-29 (NKJV) Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

You have to keep in mind, the covenant that God made with Abraham and his descendants regarding physical land and such, was an unconditional covenant. Study what went on when God performed the ceremony of sealing the covenant in Genesis 15:7-21.

In a covenant sealing ceremony in ancient times, when two parties sealed a covenant, animals are cut in two and the two parties pass thru them reciting the words of the covenant, that if either break the covenant, they will be as those cut animals. God caused a deep sleep to fall over Abraham, and God Himself passed thru the cut animals, signifying that the covenant was dependent only on God to maintain. Abraham and his physical descendants couldn't break the covenant if they wanted to. God enforces the covenant and will not break it, or His word is on the line. If the covenant is broken, then God is a liar. And God holds nothing higher than His word.

And if God's word isn't good enough to uphold the covenant, then His word is not good enough to uphold your salvation. God is one who delights in making and keeping His promises. His character and word is on the line. Every true believer relies on God's promises. If they cannot be relied upon, then this whole Christianity thing is worthless.

Sure, Israel was dispersed from the land due to rebellion, but the promise is still valid. And the period of time that God specified that they would be punished has come to an end. Israel, as per the prophecies, is in the land. Sure, initially in unbelief. Like dry bones as stated in Ezekiel 37. But God will breath life back into them. But it will take the tribulation period to finally wake them up and then the prophesy in Hosea will be realized fully:

Hosea 5:15-6:2 (NKJV) I will return again to My place
Till they acknowledge their offense.
Then they will seek My face;
In their affliction they will earnestly seek Me.”
Chapter 6
1 Come, and let us return to the Lord;
For He has torn, but He will heal us;
He has stricken, but He will bind us up.
2 After two days He will revive us;
On the third day He will raise us up,
That we may live in His sight.

For God to return to His place, He had to have left it. And He did, as Messiah who was crucified, buried, and resurrected. And Messiah had this passage in Hosea clearly in mind when He stated:

Matthew 23:38-39 (NKJV) See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ”

Where was the house of Israel in the 1st century?

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