Universal Reconciliation is still unscriptural.

ClementofA

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If you cannot extend me the common courtesy of reading and responding with your own words to what I post I have no interest in reading or responding to the same copy/paste over and over and over.

Much of that post was my own words.

Your post was mostly quotes.

Your own comments did not appear to make a coherent understandable argument.

You responded to remarks re Athenagoras that were entirely other's remarks, but now object to responding re my words re Scripture passages you posted.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

"The Third Law of Theology: For every theologian there is an equal and opposite theologian."
 
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Der Alte

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I believe it was you who has been critiquing sources others use here on these forums for many years. Now when the tables are turned & your sources are examined critically, you don't think that is fair?
Nobody has examined anything I have posted critically. Saying something or someone is biased or a damnationist without any supporting evidence, does not constitute a critical examination.
Exactly what were these criticisms you refer to? Were they regarding you, your sources, blind faith in them even when they present no evidence or argument (like an infallible pontiff)?
Go back and read Rayjeena post #56 "I should have known Jesus actually meant to say that unless we change and become like the Early Church Fathers, top-notch bible commentators and accredited scholars, we will never enter the kingdom of heaven." Criticizing me for quoting credible sources while ignoring that you do the same thing.
Did your sources tend to ignore Origen & other Early Church Father universalists use of words such as aionios & kolasis?
Nonsense! Why do you act like Origen should be considered a "pontiff' who must be obeyed and that his writings should take precedence over the writings of all other ECF?
• Origen [a.d. 185-230-254.] De Principiis. Preface of Rufinus.
5. After these points, also, the apostolic teaching is that the soul, having a substance and life of its own, shall, after its departure from the world, be rewarded according to its deserts, being destined to obtain either an inheritance of eternal life and blessedness, if its actions shall have procured this for it, or to be delivered up to eternal fire and punishments, if the guilt of its crimes shall have brought it down to this: and also, that there is to be a time of resurrection from the dead, when this body, which now “is sown in corruption, shall rise in incorruption,” and that which “is sown in dishonour will rise in glory.” (1Co_15:42-43)
6. And when He says to those on His right hand, “Come, ye blessed of My Father,” etc.; “for I was an hungered, and ye gave Me to eat; I was athirst, and ye gave Me to drink,” (Mat_25:34) it is exceedingly manifest that He gives the promises to these as being deserving of praise. But, on the contrary, to the others, as being censurable in comparison with them, He says, “Depart, ye cursed, into everlasting fire!” (Mat_25:41)
What does Origen mean by eternal, see below Origen quoting Paul
• Origen De Principiis. Book IV. Chap. I.
28. For it is the Trinity alone which exceeds the comprehension not only of temporal but even of eternal intelligence; while other things which are not included in it are to be measured by times and ages.
Origen Against Celsus. Book VI.Chap XIX
Our Paul, moreover, educated by these words, and longing after things “supra-mundane” and “super-celestial,” and doing his utmost for their sake to attain them, says in the second Epistle to the Corinthians: “For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory; while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are unseen are eternal.” (cf. 2Co_4:17, 2Co_4:18)
Chap. XX.
Now, to those who are capable of understanding him, the apostle manifestly presents to view “things which are the objects of perception,” calling them “things seen;” while he terms “unseen,” things which are the object of the understanding, and cognisable by it alone. He knows, also, that things “seen” and visible are “temporal,” but that things cognisable by the mind, and “not seen,” are “eternal;” and desiring to remain in the contemplation of these, and being assisted by his earnest longing for them, he deemed all affliction as “light” and as “nothing,”
• Origen De Principiis. Book IV. Chap. 1
23. For perhaps as those who, departing this world in virtue of that death which is common to all, are arranged, in conformity with their actions and deserts - according as they shall be deemed worthy - some in the place which is called “hell,” others in the bosom of Abraham, and in different localities or mansions; so also from those places, as if dying there, if the expression can be used,134 do they come down from the “upper world” to this “hell.” For that “hell” to which the souls of the dead are conducted from this world, is, I believe, on account of this distinction, called the “lower hell” by Scripture, as is said in the book of Psalms: “Thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell” (Cf. Psa_30:3 and Deu_32:22)
 
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ClementofA

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Did your sources tend to ignore Origen & other Early Church Father universalists use of words such as aionios & kolasis? Yes.



Nonsense!


Then provide evidence to support your claim against this:

Did your sources tend to ignore Origen & other Early Church Father universalists use of words such as aionios & kolasis? Yes.

You never have before when this topic has been raised several times in the past.

Why do you act like Origen should be considered a "pontiff' who must be obeyed and that his writings should take precedence over the writings of all other ECF?

I never said any such thing. In fact most of my posts stick with Scripture. You're the guy quoting Early Church Fathers, Jewish Encyclopedia, Pharisees, etc
 
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Der Alte

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Your post was mostly quotes.
Nonsense!
Your own comments did not appear to make a coherent understandable argument.
More nonsense.
You responded to remarks re Athenagoras that were entirely other's remarks, but now object to responding re my words re Scripture passages you posted.
Nonsense! Every word in the Athenagoras post was my words. That was [post #71]. Feel free to try to show me anything which was copy/pasted?
 
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ClementofA

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• Origen [a.d. 185-230-254.] De Principiis. Preface of Rufinus.
5. After these points, also, the apostolic teaching is that the soul, having a substance and life of its own, shall, after its departure from the world, be rewarded according to its deserts, being destined to obtain either an inheritance of eternal life and blessedness, if its actions shall have procured this for it, or to be delivered up to eternal fire and punishments, if the guilt of its crimes shall have brought it down to this: and also, that there is to be a time of resurrection from the dead, when this body, which now “is sown in corruption, shall rise in incorruption,” and that which “is sown in dishonour will rise in glory.” (1Co_15:42-43)
6. And when He says to those on His right hand, “Come, ye blessed of My Father,” etc.; “for I was an hungered, and ye gave Me to eat; I was athirst, and ye gave Me to drink,” (Mat_25:34) it is exceedingly manifest that He gives the promises to these as being deserving of praise. But, on the contrary, to the others, as being censurable in comparison with them, He says, “Depart, ye cursed, into everlasting fire!” (Mat_25:41)

Origen never used the English word "everlasting" & was a universalist, so to assume that he would have understood aionios in Mt 25:41,46 to mean "everlasting" is a big assumption and frankly, misleading.

"When it is said that "the last enemy" shall be destroyed, it is not to be understood as meaning that his substance, which is God's creation, perishes, but that his purpose and hostile will perishes; for this does not come from God but from himself. Therefore his destruction means not his ceasing to exist, but ceasing to be an enemy and ceasing to be death. Nothing is impossible to omnipotence; there is nothing that cannot be healed by its Maker.—De Principiis III. vi.5

"The restoration to unity must not be imagined as a sudden happening. Rather it is to be thought of as gradually effected by stages during the passing of countless ages. Little by little and individually the correction and purification will be accomplished. Some will lead the way and climb to the heights with swifter progress, others following right behind them; yet others will be far behind. Thus multitudes of individuals and countless orders, who once were enemies, will advance and reconcile themselves to God; and so at length the last enemy will be reached...
—De Principiis III.vi.6

"...God acts in dealing with sinners as a physician...the fury of his anger is profitable for the purging of souls. Even that penalty which is said to be imposed by way of fire is understood as applied to assist a sinner to health... —De Principiis II.x.6

"Augustine himself, after rejecting apokatastasis, and Basil attest that still late in the fourth and fifth centuries this doctrine was upheld by the vast majority of Christians (immo quam plurimi)."

"Of course there were antiuniversalists also in the ancient church, but scholars must be careful not to list among them — as is the case with the list of “the 68” antiuniversalists repeatedly cited by McC on the basis of Brian Daley’s The Hope of the Early Church — an author just because he uses πῦρ αἰώνιον, κόλασις αἰώνιος, θάνατος αἰώνιος, or the like, since these biblical expressions do not necessarily refer to eternal damnation. Indeed all universalists, from Origen to Gregory Nyssen to Evagrius, used these phrases without problems, for universalists understood these expressions as “otherworldly,” or “long-lasting,” fire, educative punishment, and death. Thus, the mere presence of such phrases is not enough to conclude that a patristic thinker “affirmed the idea of everlasting punishment” (p. 822). Didache mentions the ways of life and death, but not eternal death or torment; Ignatius, as others among “the 68,” never mentions eternal punishment. Ephrem does not speak of eternal damnation, but has many hints of healing and restoration. For Theodore of Mopsuestia, another of “the 68,” if one takes into account also the Syriac and Latin evidence, given that the Greek is mostly lost, it becomes impossible to list him among the antiuniversalists. He explicitly ruled out unending retributive punishment, sine fine et sine correctione.

I have shown, indeed, that a few of “the 68” were not antiuniversalist, and that the uncertain were in fact universalists, for example, Clement of Alexandria, Apocalypse of Peter, Sibylline Oracles (in one passage), Eusebius, Nazianzen, perhaps even Basil and Athanasius, Ambrose, Jerome before his change of mind, and Augustine in his anti-Manichaean years. Maximus too, another of “the 68,” speaks only of punishment aionios, not aidios and talks about restoration with circumspection after Justinian, also using a persona to express it. Torstein Tollefsen, Panayiotis Tzamalikos, and Maria Luisa Gatti, for instance, agree that he affirmed apokatastasis.

It is not the case that “the support for universalism is paltry compared with opposition to it” (p. 823). Not only were “the 68” in fact fewer than 68, and not only did many “uncertain” in fact support apokatastasis, but the theologians who remain in the list of antiuniversalists tend to be much less important. Look at the theological weight of Origen, the Cappadocians, Athanasius, or Maximus, for instance, on all of whom much of Christian doctrine and dogmas depends. Or think of the cultural significance of Eusebius, the spiritual impact of Evagrius or Isaac of Nineveh, or the philosophico-theological importance of Eriugena, the only author of a comprehensive treatise of systematic theology and theoretical philosophy between Origen’s Peri Archon and Aquinas’s Summa theologiae. Then compare, for instance, Barsanuphius, Victorinus of Pettau, Gaudentius of Brescia, Maximus of Turin, Tyconius, Evodius of Uzala, or Orientius, listed among “the 68” (and mostly ignorant of Greek). McC’s statement, “there are no unambiguous cases of universalist teaching prior to Origen” (p. 823), should also be at least nuanced, in light of Bardaisan, Clement, the Apocalypse of Peter’s Rainer Fragment, parts of the Sibylline Oracles, and arguably of the NT, especially Paul’s letters.

Certainly, “there was a diversity of views in the early church on the scope of final salvation.” Tertullian, for instance, did not embrace apokatastasis. But my monograph is not on patristic eschatology or soteriology in general, but specifically on the doctrine of apokatastasis. Thus, I treated the theologians who supported it, and not others."

The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: The Reviews Start Coming In
SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class journal research

Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Brill, 2013. 890 pp.)

Scholars directory, with list of publications:

Ilaria L.E. Ramelli - ISNS Scholars Directory
 
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ClementofA

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Nonsense! Every word in the Athenagoras post was my words. That was [post #71]. Feel free to try to show me anything which was copy/pasted?

You misunderstand. Every remark you "responded to" was copy pasted:

"You responded to remarks re Athenagoras that were entirely other's remarks, but now object to responding re my words re Scripture passages you posted."
 
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mkgal1

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I started learning to speak Greek the year that Elvis and I were stationed in Germany and I studied both Hebrew and Greek at the graduate level 2 decades after that. While I do not claim to be an "expert" I do know when people, who couldn't parse a Greek verb or locate a Hebrew verb if their life depended on it, try to snow me and tell me what the Hebrew and the Greek "really" means.
There's obviously more to understanding the message of the Gospel besides knowing the language or else Jesus of Nazareth wouldn't have even been put to death (nor would so many of His followers....including most of His disciples).
 
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Der Alte

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Did your sources tend to ignore Origen & other Early Church Father universalists use of words such as aionios & kolasis? Yes.
Why should accredited, world recognized, scholars cite the writings of a minority view ECF who was excommunicated from the church?
Did your sources tend to ignore Origen & other Early Church Father universalists use of words such as aionios & kolasis? Yes.
See above.
I never said any such thing. In fact most of my posts stick with Scripture. You're the guy quoting Early Church Fathers, Jewish Encyclopedia, Pharisees, etc.
I didn't say you said it I said "you act like Origen should be considered a "pontiff' who must be obeyed and that his writings should take precedence over the writings of all other ECF." You still don't seem to be able to recognize someone quoting primary sources, e.g. lexicons., grammars, historical sources such as ECF, Jewish Encyclopedia, Talmud is entirely different than someone copy/pasting canned complete arguments from an intermediate source. If you think something at tents-я-us is credible go look it up in the original source and write your own comments. I'm not interested in something some dood at tents-я-us thinks or says about anything.
 
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mkgal1

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Behold, I make all things new
.....am *making* is what a lot of the versions say (it's a process....not an event).
If it's Accredited Scholar Approved, it must be true!
There's more than just "accredited scholars" on the side of UR.....there's also the Greek Orthodox church (which, IMO, didn't get caught up in all the political power of the Roman Catholic church) and the Franciscan order of the Catholics has always held to the belief of UR (and the "powers that be" has never burned any of them at the stake or declared them heretics).https://cac.org/universal-salvation-2017-04-07/
 
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Der Alte

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There's obviously more to understanding the message of the Gospel besides knowing the language or else Jesus of Nazareth wouldn't have even been put to death (nor would so many of His followers....including most of His disciples).
Nice copout which does not add anything cogent to the discussion. When people here stop telling me that all the Greek scholars have been wrong for years, that although they know absolutely nothing about Greek grammar presumably know the correct definition of all the Greek words in the NT, then we might have this discussion.
 
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Rajni

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There is a big difference between someone stating a position and quoting credible, verifiable, historical sources in support of that position and someone copy/pasting a full blown canned argument from a UR website. Types of evidence which might be considered credible, verifiable, historical are lexicons, grammars, Jewish encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica, historical evidence such as ECF and the Talmud.
Not all sources used were from Tents-A-Million. And it's not like that site doesn't cite the kinds of sources you are looking for. They have an entire page of ECF statements supporting UR.

I'm certain that even if you were faced with quotes from ECFs in favor of universal redemption, you'd find some reason to dismiss them. For example:
Why do you act like Origen should be considered a "pontiff' who must be obeyed and that his writings should take precedence over the writings of all other ECF?
See what I mean?
 
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mkgal1

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When people here stop telling me that all the Greek scholars have been wrong for years, that although they know absolutely nothing about Greek grammar presumably know the correct definition of all the Greek words in the NT, then we might have this discussion.
No.....not all. We have an entire church tradition (Greek Orthodox) that's maintained their "fabric" from the very beginning (prior to the canonization of the NT, even), but you can't deny there was a bit of "compulsion" to not boldly go against the church for quite a few centuries there (referencing the burning of the stake years). Dante's inferno theology is great for "controlling the masses" (along with threats of taking away a person's access to heaven through manipulation with the Holy Sacraments).
 
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Rajni

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I didn't say you said it I said "you act like Origen should be considered a "pontiff' who must be obeyed and that his writings should take precedence over the writings of all other ECF."
Oh please. Same difference. How can you even see how someone acts over the internet? You essentially indicated that this was what he was saying.

Nice copout which does not add anything cogent to the discussion. When people here stop telling me that all the Greek scholars have been wrong for years, that although they know absolutely nothing about Greek grammar presumably know the correct definition of all the Greek words in the NT, then we might have this discussion.
Obviously not much can be gained by trying to communicate with someone apparently caught up in a cult of scholarship. Evidently scholars are tantamount to popes for some. Practically saviors in and of themselves...
 
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Der Alte

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Not all sources used were from Tents-A-Million. And it's not like that site doesn't cite the kinds of sources you are looking for. They have an entire page of ECF statements supporting UR.
I am acquainted with how to write and include quotes from primary sources, which is why I post as I do. When I read a quote in an intermediate source I expect to see the the name of the source, chapter, section etc. Someone saying e.g. "Origen taught universal reconciliation." is not a proper citation.
I'm certain that even if you were faced with quotes from ECFs in favor of universal redemption, you'd find some reason to dismiss them. For example:
See what I mean?
I have already addressed some ECF, of whom it has been said they are universalists, such as Origen, the ECF poster boy for UR.
• Origen [a.d. 185-230-254.] De Principiis. Preface of Rufinus.
5. After these points, also, the apostolic teaching is that the soul, having a substance6 and life of its own, shall, after its departure from the world, be rewarded according to its deserts, being destined to obtain either an inheritance of eternal life and blessedness, if its actions shall have procured this for it, or to be delivered up to eternal fire and punishments, if the guilt of its crimes shall have brought it down to this: and also, that there is to be a time of resurrection from the dead, when this body, which now “is sown in corruption, shall rise in incorruption,” and that which “is sown in dishonour will rise in glory.” (1Co_15:42-43)
6. And when He says to those on His right hand, “Come, ye blessed of My Father,” etc.; “for I was an hungered, and ye gave Me to eat; I was athirst, and ye gave Me to drink,” (Mat_25:34) it is exceedingly manifest that He gives the promises to these as being deserving of praise. But, on the contrary, to the others, as being censurable in comparison with them, He says, “Depart, ye cursed, into everlasting fire!” (Mat_25:41)
• Origen De Principiis. Book IV. Chap. I.
28. For it is the Trinity alone which exceeds the comprehension not only of temporal but even of eternal intelligence; while other things which are not included in it are to be measured by times and ages.
What does Origen mean by "eternal?" Here Origen quotes Paul from 2 Corinthians 4:17-18
• Origen Against Celsus. Book VI.Chap XIX
Our Paul, moreover, educated by these words, and longing after things “supra-mundane” and “super-celestial,” and doing his utmost for their sake to attain them, says in the second Epistle to the Corinthians: “For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory; while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are unseen are eternal.” (cf. 2Co_4:17, 2Co_4:18)
Chap. XX.
Now, to those who are capable of understanding him, the apostle manifestly presents to view “things which are the objects of perception,” calling them “things seen;” while he terms “unseen,” things which are the object of the understanding, and cognisable by it alone. He knows, also, that things “seen” and visible are “temporal,” but that things cognisable by the mind, and “not seen,” are “eternal;” and desiring to remain in the contemplation of these, and being assisted by his earnest longing for them, he deemed all affliction as “light” and as “nothing,”
• Origen De Principiis. Book IV. Chap. 1
23. For perhaps as those who, departing this world in virtue of that death which is common to all, are arranged, in conformity with their actions and deserts - according as they shall be deemed worthy - some in the place which is called “hell,” others in the bosom of Abraham, and in different localities or mansions; so also from those places, as if dying there, if the expression can be used,134 do they come down from the “upper world” to this “hell.” For that “hell” to which the souls of the dead are conducted from this world, is, I believe, on account of this distinction, called the “lower hell” by Scripture, as is said in the book of Psalms: “Thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell” (Cf. Psa_30:3 and Deu_32:22)

 
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ClementofA

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Why should accredited, world recognized, scholars cite the writings of a minority view ECF who was excommunicated from the church?

Why do you? For the same reason lexicons cite any author's use of a word. Lexicons should not omit any author because of the things you state, whether true or false.

BTW, where is your evidence of excommunication & minority view? During the dark ages of Inquisitions, Crusades and burning to death of those of different opinions?

Evidently universalism is a legitimate Christian viewpoint on this forum & in Christianity in general today.



I didn't say you said it I said "you act like Origen should be considered a "pontiff' who must be obeyed and that his writings should take precedence over the writings of all other ECF."

You have no idea how i act. All you have are my words.

I never said any such thing. In fact most of my posts stick with Scripture. You're the guy quoting Early Church Fathers, Jewish Encyclopedia, Pharisees, etc



 
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ClementofA

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Is it? Please show me one verse of scripture in this scribbling?

The point, which you seem to have avoided addressing, is the man's belief in universalism:

"The passage seems quite clear to me. Athenagoras says that after the resurrection takes place, the end befitting our nature will follow, which is the uninterrupted contemplation of God, though there are many who don't achieve it in this life. But their failure "does not make void the common lot". Now, what could he have meant by this except that the present sinfulness of a portion of humanity does not change the fact that all people share one blessed ultimate destiny? Perhaps someone who knows Greek can say whether a different translation is possible, but the English phrase "does not make void the common lot" appears to me as an unequivocal declaration that all people have the same fate which cannot be made void."

Thomas Allin, in Christ Triumphant, has some comments re Athenagoras:

"There is much that is interesting in a writer earlier than Clement, Athenegoras, 177 A.D."

"He nowhere alludes to endless penalty, though he speaks of future judgment. His conception of the Resurrection seems to be that it is the crown and completion of man's rational nature. "If this takes place (the Resurrection) an end befitting the nature of man follows also." - ch. xxv. He speaks of the future body as not liable to suffering, - ch. x., and of the Resurrection as a change for the better (apparently in every case) ch. xii. ATHENAGORAS, though little known, writes with a grace and vigor too often wanting in. more famous names."

Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin

A more updated version with this quote on p.111-112:

Christ Triumphant
 
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Rajni

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I am acquainted with how to write and include quotes from primary sources, which is why I post as I do. When I read a quote in an intermediate source I expect to see the the name of the source, chapter, section etc. Someone saying e.g. "Origen taught universal reconciliation." is not a proper citation.

Well, I could see, based on some things Origen is quoted as saying, why someone might conclude that he had his universalistic moments:

"Stronger than all the evils in the soul is the Word, and the healing power that dwells in him, and this healing He applies, according to the will of God, to everyman. The consummation of all things is the destruction of evil…to quote Zephaniah: 'My determination to gather the nations, that I am assemble the kings, to pour upon them mine indignation, even say all my fierce anger, for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy. For then will I turn to the people a pure language that they may all call upon the name of the Lord, to serve Him with one consent'…Consider carefully the promise, that all shall call upon the Name of the Lord, and serve him with one consent." (The Writings of Origen)

"So then, when the end has been restored to the beginning, and the termination of things compared with their commencement, that condition of things will be re-established in which rational nature was placed, when it had no need to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; so that when all feeling of wickedness has been removed, and the individual has been purified and cleansed, He who alone is the one good God becomes to him 'all,' and that not in the case of a few individuals, or of a considerable number, but He Himself is 'all in all.' And when death shall no longer anywhere exist, nor the sting of death, nor any evil at all, then verily God will be 'all in all'" —De Prinicipiis

"It cannot be said that there is in this anything wicked, except that it leaves the overruling, upholding power of God out of the question altogether. Not so much, however, can be said of what follows:— 'But whether any of these orders who act under the government of the devil, and obey his wicked commands, will in a future world be converted to righteousness because of their possessing the faculty of freedom of will, or whether persistent and inveterate wickedness may be changed by the power of habit into nature, is a result which you yourself, reader, may approve of, if neither in these present worlds which are seen and temporal, nor in those which are unseen and are eternal, that portion is to differ wholly from the final unity and fitness of things. But in the meantime, both in those temporal worlds which are seen, as well as in those eternal worlds which are invisible, all those beings are arranged, according to a regular plan, in the order and degree of their merits; so that some of them in the first, others in the second, some even in the last times, after having undergone heavier and severer punishments, endured for a lengthened period, and for many ages, so to speak, improved by this stern method of training, and restored at first by the instruction of the angels, and subsequently by the powers of a higher grade, and thus advancing through each stage to a better condition, reach even to that which is invisible and eternal, having traveled through, by a kind of training, every single office of the heavenly powers. From which, I think, this will appear to follow as an inference, that every rational nature may, in passing from one order to another, go through each to all, and advance from all to each, while made the subject of various degrees of proficiency and failure according to its own actions and endeavors, put forth in the enjoyment of its power of freedom of will.'" (De Prinicipiis)

"We think, indeed, that the goodness of God, through His Christ, may recall all His creatures to one end, even His enemies being conquered and subdued. For thus says holy Scripture, 'The Lord said to My Lord, Sit Thou at My right hand, until I make Thine enemies Thy footstool.' And if the meaning of the prophet’s language here be less clear, we may ascertain it from the Apostle Paul, who speaks more openly, thus: 'For Christ must reign until He has put all enemies under His feet.' But if even that unreserved declaration of the apostle do not sufficiently inform us what is meant by 'enemies being placed under His feet,' listen to what he says in the following words, 'For all things must be put under Him.' What, then, is this 'putting under' by which all things must be made subject to Christ? I am of opinion that it is this very subjection by which we also wish to be subject to Him, by which the apostles also were subject, and all the saints who have been followers of Christ. For the name 'subjection,' by which we are subject to Christ, indicates that the salvation which proceeds from Him belongs to His subjects, agreeably to the declaration of David, 'Shall not my soul be subject unto God? From Him cometh my salvation.'" (De Principiis)


 
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Origen never used the English word "everlasting" & was a universalist, so to assume that he would have understood aionios in Mt 25:41,46 to mean "everlasting" is a big assumption and frankly, misleading....
How did Origen understand the word translated everlasting in 1 Corinthians 4:17-18, 1 Corinthians 5:1 ?
• Origen De Principiis. Book II. Chap. I.
6. Certainly, what some say of this world, that it is corruptible because it was made, and yet is not corrupted, because the will of God, who made it and holds it together lest corruption should rule over it, is stronger and more powerful than corruption, may more correctly be supposed of that world which we have called above a “non-wandering” sphere, since by the will of God it is not at all subject to corruption, for the reason that it has not admired any causes of corruption, seeing it is the world of the saints and of the thoroughly purified, and not of the wicked, like that world of ours. We must see, moreover, lest perhaps it is with reference to this that the apostle says, “While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are unseen are eternal. For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.” (2 Corinthians 4:18-5:1)
• Origen De Principiis. Book III.Chap. V
4. It seems worth while, then, to inquire what is meant by this new term; and I am, indeed, of opinion250 that, as the end and consummation of the saints will be in those (ages) which are not seen, and are eternal, we must conclude (as frequently pointed out in the preceding pages), from a contemplation of that very end, that rational creatures had also a similar beginning. And if they had a beginning such as the end for which they hope, they existed undoubtedly from the very beginning in those (ages) which are not seen, and are eternal.
• Origen De Principiis. Book III. Chap. VI
4. Respecting the body also, the apostle has said, “ We have a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens,” (
2Co_5:1) i.e., in the mansions of the blessed. And from this statement we may form a conjecture, how pure, how refined, and how glorious are the qualities of that body, if we compare it with those which, although they are celestial bodies, and of most brilliant splendour, were nevertheless made with hands, and are visible to our sight. But of that body it is said, that it is a house not made with hands, but eternal in the heavens. Since, then, those things “which are seen are temporal, but those things which are not seen are eternal,” (2Co_4:18) all those bodies which we see either on earth or in heaven, and which are capable of being seen, and have been made with hands, but are not eternal, are far excelled in glory by that which is not visible, nor made with hands, but is eternal.
6. And in this condition, also, we are to believe, that by the will of the Creator, it will abide for ever without any change, as is confirmed by the declaration of the apostle, when he says, “ We have a house, not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.”
• Origen De Principiis. Book I Chap VI
4. But since Paul says that certain things are visible and temporal, and others besides these invisible and eternal, we proceed to inquire how those things which are seen are temporal - whether because there will be nothing at all after them in all those periods of the coming world, in which that dispersion and separation from the one beginning is undergoing a process of restoration to one and the same end and likeness; or because, while the form of those things which are seen passes away, their essential nature is subject to no corruption.
• Origen De Principiis. Book II.Chap III
6. We must see, moreover, lest perhaps it is with reference to this that the apostle says, “While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are unseen are eternal. For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.” (2 Corinthians 4:18-5:1) And when he says elsewhere, “Because I shall see the heavens, the works of Thy fingers,” (
Psa_8:3) and when God said, regarding all things visible, by the mouth of His prophet, “My hand has formed all these things,” (Isa_66:2) He declares that that eternal house in the heavens which He promises to His saints was not made with hands, pointing out, doubtless, the difference of creation in things which are seen and in those which are not seen.
• Origen Against Celsus. Book III. Chap. XLVII.
But it is probable that what is written by Paul in the first Epistle to the Corinthians, (cf.
1Co_1:18, etc.) as being addressed to Greeks who prided themselves greatly on their Grecian wisdom, has moved some to believe that it was not the object of the Gospel to win wise men. Now, let him who is of this opinion understand that the Gospel, as censuring wicked men, says of them that they are wise not in things which relate to the understanding, and which are unseen and eternal; but that in busying themselves about things of sense alone, and regarding these as all-important, they are wise men of the world: for as there are in existence a multitude of opinions, some of them espousing the cause of matter and bodies, and asserting that everything is corporeal which has a substantial existence, and that besides these nothing else exists, whether it be called invisible or incorporeal, it says also that these constitute the wisdom of the world, which perishes and fades away, and belongs only to this age, while those opinions which raise the soul from things here to the blessedness which is with God, and to His kingdom, and which teach men to despise all sensible and visible things as existing only for a season, and to hasten on to things invisible, and to have regard to those things which are not seen, - these, it says, constitute the wisdom of God.
• Origen Against Celsus. Book VI Chap. XIX
Our Paul, moreover, educated by these words, and longing after things “supra-mundane” and “super-celestial,” and doing his utmost for their sake to attain them, says in the second Epistle to the Corinthians: “ For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory; while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are unseen are eternal.” (cf.
2Co_4:17, 2Co_4:18)
Chap. XX.
Now, to those who are capable of understanding him, the apostle manifestly presents to view “things which are the objects of perception,” calling them “things seen;” while he terms “unseen,” things which are the object of the understanding, and cognisable by it alone. He knows, also, that things “seen” and visible are “temporal,” but that things cognisable by the mind, and “not seen,” are “eternal;” and desiring to remain in the contemplation of these, and being assisted by his earnest longing for them, he deemed all affliction as “light” and as “nothing,” and during the season of afflictions and troubles was not at all bowed down by them, but by his contemplation of (divine) things deemed every calamity a light thing, seeing we also have “a great High Priest,” who by the greatness of His power and understanding “has passed through the heavens, even Jesus the Son of God,” who has promised to all that have truly learned divine things, and have lived lives in harmony with them, to go before them to the things that are supra-mundane; for His words are: “That where I go, ye may be also.”
• Origen Against Celsus. Book VII Chap. XXXII.
Then, again, as there is “a tabernacle” and “an earthly house” which is in some sort necessary for this tabernacle, Scripture teaches us that “the earthly house of this tabernacle shall be dissolved,” but that the tabernacle shall “be clothed upon with a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.” (
2Co_5:1)
De Principiis. Book IV. Chap. I
36. And not only so, but because the nature of Father, and Son, and Holy Spirit, whose intellectual light alone all created things have a share, is incorruptible and eternal, it is altogether consistent and necessary that every substance which partakes of that eternal nature should last for ever, and be incorruptible and eternal, so that the eternity of divine goodness may be understood also in this respect, that they who obtain its benefits are also eternal.
 
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How did Origen understand the word translated everlasting in 1 Corinthians 4:17-18, 1 Corinthians 5:1 ?

Whatever it was it won't tell us how he understood the meaning in Matthew 25:41,46. Meaning is determined by context. And aionios is often used of finite duration:

I have considered the days of old, the years of ancient(aionios) times. (Psa.77:5)

Don’t move the ancient(aionios) boundary stone, which your fathers have set up. (Prov.22:28)

Don’t move the ancient(aionios) boundary stone. Don’t encroach on the fields of the fatherless: (Prov.23:10)

Those from among you will rebuild the ancient(aionios) ruins; You will raise up the age-old(aionios) foundations;... (Isa 58:12a)

Thus says the Lord Yahweh: Because the enemy has said against you, Aha! and, The ancient(aionios) high places are ours in possession; (Ezek.36:2)

Because of thy having an enmity age-during(aionios)... (Ezek.35:5a)

They will rebuild the perpetual(aionios) ruins and restore the places that were desolate; (Isa.61:4a)

I went down to the bottoms of the mountains. The earth barred me in forever(aionios): yet have you brought up my life from the pit, Yahweh my God. (Jonah 2:6)

He beat back His foes; He gave them lasting(aionios) shame. (Psa.78:66)

Will you keep the old(aionios) way, which wicked men have trodden (Job 22:15)

Will it make an agreement with you for you to take it as your slave for life(aionios)? (Job 41:4)

’Will you not fear me?" says The Lord "will you not be cautious in front of my face? The One who appointed the sand to be the boundary to the sea, by perpetual(aionios) decree, that it will not cross over though it will be agitated it is not able and though the waves resound within her yet she will not overstep it. (Jer.5:22)

Their land will be an object of horror and of lasting(aionios) scorn; all who pass by will be appalled and will shake their heads. (Jer.18:16)

Behold I will send, and take all the kindreds of the north, saith the Lord, and Nabuchodonosor the king of Babylon my servant: and I will bring them against this land, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all the nations that are round about it: and I will destroy them, and make them an astonishment and a hissing, and
perpetual(aionios) desolations. (Jer.25:9)

And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans; and I will make it perpetual(aionios) desolations. (Jer.25:12)

In their heat I will make their feasts, and I will make them drunken, that they may rejoice, and sleep a perpetual(aionios) sleep, and not wake, saith the LORD. (Jer.51:39)

When I shall bring thee down with them that descend into the pit, with the people of old time, and shall set thee in the low parts of the earth, in places desolate of old(aionios),
with them that go down to the pit, that thou be not inhabited; and I shall set glory in the land of the living; (Ezek.26:20)

I will make you a perpetual(aionios) desolation, and your cities shall not be inhabited; and you shall know that I am Yahweh. (Ezek.35:9)

From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian(aionios) life and these to reproach for eonian(aionios) repulsion. (Daniel 12:2)

Thus says Yahweh, “Stand in the ways and see, and ask for the old(aionios) paths, ‘Where is the good way?’ and walk in it, and you will find rest for your souls.
But they said, ‘We will not walk in it.’ (Jer.6:16)

For my people have forgotten me, they have burned incense to false gods; and they have been made to stumble in their ways, in the ancient(aionios) paths, to walk in byways, in a way not built up; (Jer.18:15)

Then he remembered the days of old(aionios), Moses and his people, saying, Where is he who brought them up out of the sea with the shepherds of his flock?where is he who put his holy Spirit in the midst of them? (Isa.63:11)


******************************************************


"...it doesn't say what most evangelizers of hopelessness want it to say in that regard either."

"It is false, he maintained, to translate that phrase as "everlasting punishment," introducing into the New Testament the concept found in the Islamic Quran that God is going to torture the wicked forever."


Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism
 
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Whatever it was it won't tell us how he understood the meaning in Matthew 25:41,46. Meaning is determined by context. And aionios is often used of finite duration:
Oh but yes it does. You would know this if you had actually read my post. I even highlighted the pertinent phrases. Origen quoted or referred to 2 Cor 4:17-18 2 Cor 5:1 eight (8) times. Here to recapitulate.
2 Corinthians 4:17-18
(17) For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all.
(18) So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen, since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal. αἰώνιος/aionios]

2 Corinthians 5:1
(1) For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] house in heaven, not built by human hands.
In this passage, which IMHO, is incorrectly versified. 2 Cor 5:1 obviously belongs in chap. 4 as vs. 19. In vs. 4:18 Paul contrasts αἰώνιος/aionios with temporal i.e. temporary. The opposite of "temporal/temporary" is not "ages,""a long time" or any of the other terms URs use to try to redefine aionios.
.....In vs. 5;1 Paul contrasts "the earthly tent ... is destroyed" with an eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] house in heaven. The opposite of can be "destroyed" is not "ages,""a long time" or any of the other terms URs use to try to redefine aionios. But wait there is more.

Romans 2:7
(7) To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, [ἀφθαρσία/aphtharsia] eternal[αἰώνιος/aionios] life:

1 Timothy 1:17
(17) Now unto the King
eternal, [αἰώνιος/aionios] immortal,[ἀφθαρσία/aphtharsia] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. [εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων/eis tous aionas ton aionon]]Amen.

Romans 1:23
(23) And changed the glory of the uncorruptible [ἀφθαρσία/aphtharsia] God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
In Rom 2:7 and 1 Tim 1:17 Paul pairs "immortality," ἀφθαρσία/apftharsia with "eternal" αἰώνιος/aionios. αἰώνιος/aionios cannot mean ages, a long time etc. and be paired with "uncorruptible" or "immortality." God cannot be "immortal"/"uncorruptible" and only ages long at the same time.
I have considered the days of old, the years of ancient(aionios) times. (Psa.77:5)
Don’t move the ancient(aionios) boundary stone, which your fathers have set up. (Prov.22:28)
Don’t move the ancient(aionios) boundary stone. Don’t encroach on the fields of the fatherless: (Prov.23:10)
Those from among you will rebuild the ancient(aionios) ruins; You will raise up the age-old(aionios) foundations;... (Isa 58:12a)
Thus says the Lord Yahweh: Because the enemy has said against you, Aha! and, The ancient(aionios) high places are ours in possession; (Ezek.36:2)
Because of thy having an enmity age-during(aionios)... (Ezek.35:5a)
They will rebuild the perpetual(aionios) ruins and restore the places that were desolate; (Isa.61:4a)
I went down to the bottoms of the mountains. The earth barred me in forever(aionios): yet have you brought up my life from the pit, Yahweh my God. (Jonah 2:6)
He beat back His foes; He gave them lasting(aionios) shame. (Psa.78:66)
Will you keep the old(aionios) way, which wicked men have trodden (Job 22:15)
Will it make an agreement with you for you to take it as your slave for life(aionios)? (Job 41:4)
’Will you not fear me?" says The Lord "will you not be cautious in front of my face? The One who appointed the sand to be the boundary to the sea, by perpetual(aionios) decree, that it will not cross over though it will be agitated it is not able and though the waves resound within her yet she will not overstep it. (Jer.5:22)
Their land will be an object of horror and of lasting(aionios) scorn; all who pass by will be appalled and will shake their heads. (Jer.18:16)
Behold I will send, and take all the kindreds of the north, saith the Lord, and Nabuchodonosor the king of Babylon my servant: and I will bring them against this land, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all the nations that are round about it: and I will destroy them, and make them an astonishment and a hissing, and
perpetual(aionios) desolations. (Jer.25:9)
And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans; and I will make it perpetual(aionios) desolations. (Jer.25:12)
In their heat I will make their feasts, and I will make them drunken, that they may rejoice, and sleep a perpetual(aionios) sleep, and not wake, saith the LORD. (Jer.51:39)
When I shall bring thee down with them that descend into the pit, with the people of old time, and shall set thee in the low parts of the earth, in places desolate of old(aionios),
with them that go down to the pit, that thou be not inhabited; and I shall set glory in the land of the living; (Ezek.26:20)
I will make you a perpetual(aionios) desolation, and your cities shall not be inhabited; and you shall know that I am Yahweh. (Ezek.35:9)
From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian(aionios) life and these to reproach for eonian(aionios) repulsion. (Daniel 12:2)
Thus says Yahweh, “Stand in the ways and see, and ask for the old(aionios) paths, ‘Where is the good way?’ and walk in it, and you will find rest for your souls.
But they said, ‘We will not walk in it.’ (Jer.6:16)
For my people have forgotten me, they have burned incense to false gods; and they have been made to stumble in their ways, in the ancient(aionios) paths, to walk in byways, in a way not built up; (Jer.18:15)
Then he remembered the days of old(aionios), Moses and his people, saying, Where is he who brought them up out of the sea with the shepherds of his flock?where is he who put his holy Spirit in the midst of them? (Isa.63:11)
All these verses are irrelevant. Once again I remind you of these 2 articles from your favorite website tents-я-us. Don't tell me that URs only recognize hyperbole when it does not contradict thier false teachings.

• Tents–r-us - Hyperbole
The Bible is full of exaggerations … which are NOT to be taken literally. Careful attention, comparing scripture with scripture, knowing the Bible and its author thoroughly, making certain not to necessary apply things to ourselves which weren’t meant for us individually and some basics about the original languages are needed to prevent us from misinterpreting various scripture verses like this one. In this case, obviously, if something is against the will of God or if one asks with the wrong motive, no matter how much one believes for something, it won’t happen. (See James 4:2,3; John 5:19; John 15:5; 2 Cor.13:8, etc.) However, someone under a hyper-faith teaching ministry like the Word/faith movement, for example, may take this verse literally. Misinterpreting and misapplying this verse could cause one to do some serious damage to themselves and others due to demanding from God what He never really said He would do because they didn’t bother to find out or were never taught in their church that the Bible is FULL OF HYPERBOLE WHICH SHOULDN’T BE TAKEN LITERALLY!
Bible Matters--Hyperbole
• Tents–r-us Hyperbole - (exaggeration for effect) in the Bible and its Problems
This Bible Matters edition just briefly touches on just one of those figures of speech (hyperbole) and the hurdles we have to jump over in order to really understand what the writers of the Scriptures were really trying to convey.
Of the over 200 different types of figures of speech employed by the writers of the Bible, hyperbole is actually one of the more easy forms to figure out in the Bible although many of them are not recognized.
To read and understand the Bible as it was actually written, that is, filled with hundreds of different forms of figures of speech which should NOT be taken literally, requires some serious study – study which most Christians (including pastors) are not willing to do. Jesus said that Satan was a liar and the father of all lies. Many Christians, who have been taught to read the Bible literally, categorize some forms of figures of speech as lies. Stretching the truth is considered a lie in many Christian circles. Some hyperbole actually enters into the realm of what we, in the West, would call a lie. The Semitic languages (Hebrew being one of them) are exaggerative to an extreme. The Bible is FILLED with these exaggerative expressions. Because we are taught to take the text literally and because most Bible translations have used a literal nearly word-for-word approach in translating, we are left with thousands of passages of Scripture to which we have little to no accurate understanding – and the understandings we have been taught by our teachers are often false.
Bible Matters--<span class="style1">Hyperbole (exaggeration for effect) in the Bible and its Problems</span>
 
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