4 Reasons Revelation is not a future timetable: John says so!

eclipsenow · Jul 14, 2017

Many futurists who see Revelation as a timetable for the last generation insist they read it 'literally'. They don't! In their rush to make the book all about them and their generation and their theories about Russia or the Middle East or whatever, they miss the clearest parts of Revelation which actually *are* quite literal. The introduction, the very instruction manual for the book! In Revelation Chapter 1, we'll see 4 key things that mean it was primarily John preparing his generation for serious persecution from the Romans. 4 things!

1. SOON: Revelation 1 shows us that this book was written by John to his generation with a *generic* message about suffering that would break out under Rome but would teach all future generations about obedience to Christ in such terrible situations.
Literally, all these things would “…SOON take place." (Rev 1:1)
"Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is NEAR." (Rev 1:3)

2. OBEY
Note that John wanted his generation to *obey* the message (take it to heart). How do you obey a message all about people 2000 years in the future, and not even about you? You can’t. But John expected *his* generation to *obey* this message, and stay faithful with patient endurance in these times of suffering.

3. *TRIBULATION* started THEN! John shared in it! Rev 1:9 "I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus." (NASB) The tribulation had *already* started, 2000 years ago as the Romans started persecuting the church. Think of the questions early Jewish Christians had at the time. Was the Messiah still going to save Israel from her enemies and kick out the Romans? What was the point of belonging to this 'new Israel', the church, if it didn't guarantee any national or personal security? How were Christians to understand the eventual fall of the temple in AD70? Why was God letting his forgiven people suffer so much? John answers these questions. Revelation is a sermon about suffering, written in rich biblical images. It's like a Marvel Superhero comic with colourful villains we boo and hiss, and a wonderful hero that will most certainly win victory for all. It was written *to* them and specifically *about* them and their suffering. But just as we can read Paul's letters to Ephesus and Corinth and Rome and learn what it means to serve God, we can read this letter to the church suffering Roman persecution and learn.
By teaching John's generation how to suffer under Rome, it also reminds us that our kingdom is eternal, not temporal, spiritual, not political, sometimes poor in this world, but rich in the next. If we listen, and learn the lesson they learned 2000 years ago. If we listen to John we'll be reminded where the *true* temple now is, where true security exists, and how our true home is being prepared. It’s about God calls us to be faithful even when this world asks us to trust in governments and worldly philosophies and riches.

4. IT ENDS IN THE GOSPEL HOPE: It starts with the gospel in chapter 1:2 "who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ." It's not a timetable of the future, it's about the gospel! John says so right here. Sure it ends with 3 graphic descriptions of the return of the Lord (from different camera angles, so to speak). But just because Revelation reminds John's generation of the Lord's eventual return in victory and judgement, it does *not* mean the entire book is a timetable of that return. It's an encouragement to John's generation then, not a timetable for us now. If it were about *us* (and every generation thinks they're pretty special!), then the book has been irrelevant and useless to the church for 2000 years. It would almost be like John saying to his suffering generation, "You think the Romans are bad, wait till you see what happens in 2000 years!" It just doesn't make any sense. John said the persecution was starting soon, he already shared in it, and he wanted *them* to *obey* his message. All his instructions in Chapter 1 are impossible if the whole book is about 2000 years later! Instead, we should read it the way the Reformers read it, as Amillennials. We learn from Revelation about suffering today as we think about Christians in North Korea or various Muslim nations. Christians suffering persecution receive this book with great thanksgiving and are encouraged by it, when they understand what it is *really* saying.
For more on this Amillennial perspective, please buy "Apocalypse Now and then" by Dr Paul Barnett. He's a Sydney Anglican Bishop that also taught ancient history for many years in a local university. It's gold! I encourage you to buy a copy on kindle.

greenguzzi · Jul 14, 2017

Excellent!
I don't usually like Sydney Anglicans, they are way too patriarchal for my liking. But maybe Dr Paul is an exception. Amillennialism is the only eschatology that makes any sense, so anyone who is propagating it is righteous in my books.

dysert · Jul 14, 2017

eclipsenow said:
Many futurists who see Revelation as a timetable for the last generation insist they read it 'literally'. They don't! In their rush to make the book all about them and their generation and their theories about Russia or the Middle East or whatever, they miss the clearest parts of Revelation which actually *are* quite literal. The introduction, the very instruction manual for the book! In Revelation Chapter 1, we'll see 4 key things that mean it was primarily John preparing his generation for serious persecution from the Romans. 4 things!

1. SOON: Revelation 1 shows us that this book was written by John to his generation with a *generic* message about suffering that would break out under Rome but would teach all future generations about obedience to Christ in such terrible situations.
Literally, all these things would “…SOON take place." (Rev 1:1)
"Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is NEAR." (Rev 1:3)

2. OBEY
Note that John wanted his generation to *obey* the message (take it to heart). How do you obey a message all about people 2000 years in the future, and not even about you? You can’t. But John expected *his* generation to *obey* this message, and stay faithful with patient endurance in these times of suffering.

3. *TRIBULATION* started THEN! John shared in it! Rev 1:9 "I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus." (NASB) The tribulation had *already* started, 2000 years ago as the Romans started persecuting the church. Think of the questions early Jewish Christians had at the time. Was the Messiah still going to save Israel from her enemies and kick out the Romans? What was the point of belonging to this 'new Israel', the church, if it didn't guarantee any national or personal security? How were Christians to understand the eventual fall of the temple in AD70? Why was God letting his forgiven people suffer so much? John answers these questions. Revelation is a sermon about suffering, written in rich biblical images. It's like a Marvel Superhero comic with colourful villains we boo and hiss, and a wonderful hero that will most certainly win victory for all. It was written *to* them and specifically *about* them and their suffering. But just as we can read Paul's letters to Ephesus and Corinth and Rome and learn what it means to serve God, we can read this letter to the church suffering Roman persecution and learn.
By teaching John's generation how to suffer under Rome, it also reminds us that our kingdom is eternal, not temporal, spiritual, not political, sometimes poor in this world, but rich in the next. If we listen, and learn the lesson they learned 2000 years ago. If we listen to John we'll be reminded where the *true* temple now is, where true security exists, and how our true home is being prepared. It’s about God calls us to be faithful even when this world asks us to trust in governments and worldly philosophies and riches.

4. IT ENDS IN THE GOSPEL HOPE: It starts with the gospel in chapter 1:2 "who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ." It's not a timetable of the future, it's about the gospel! John says so right here. Sure it ends with 3 graphic descriptions of the return of the Lord (from different camera angles, so to speak). But just because Revelation reminds John's generation of the Lord's eventual return in victory and judgement, it does *not* mean the entire book is a timetable of that return. It's an encouragement to John's generation then, not a timetable for us now. If it were about *us* (and every generation thinks they're pretty special!), then the book has been irrelevant and useless to the church for 2000 years. It would almost be like John saying to his suffering generation, "You think the Romans are bad, wait till you see what happens in 2000 years!" It just doesn't make any sense. John said the persecution was starting soon, he already shared in it, and he wanted *them* to *obey* his message. All his instructions in Chapter 1 are impossible if the whole book is about 2000 years later! Instead, we should read it the way the Reformers read it, as Amillennials. We learn from Revelation about suffering today as we think about Christians in North Korea or various Muslim nations. Christians suffering persecution receive this book with great thanksgiving and are encouraged by it, when they understand what it is *really* saying.
For more on this Amillennial perspective, please buy "Apocalypse Now and then" by Dr Paul Barnett. He's a Sydney Anglican Bishop that also taught ancient history for many years in a local university. It's gold! I encourage you to buy a copy on kindle.

I disagree. Going by your four points:

SOON. We all know that "soon" is a relative term. The meaning is "imminent", i.e., it's the next thing to happen on God's timetable. "Soon" with God is obviously not the same as "soon" with us.

OBEY. Since we don't know when Christ will return, every generation ought to obey. Obedience is a common theme throughout the entire Bible. The original audience isn't the only one who is called to obedience. Everyone who calls him/herself a Christian should be obeying at all times.

TRIBULATION started THEN. John was in tribulation, no doubt, just as his predecessors had been before their martyrdom. There is a difference, though, between general tribulation and THE tribulation spoken of by Daniel the prophet. THE tribulation is what Revelation is about, and it hasn't started yet.

IT ENDS IN THE GOSPEL HOPE. While I don't see how this supports the assertion that Revelation is not futuristic, it does remind its readers that in the end Christians "win".

(I won't be buying the book)

eclipsenow · Jul 14, 2017

Hi Greenguzzi,
cool!

< sidetrack > You ever hear that Dr John Dickson (a leading Sydney Anglican) wrote "Hearing her voice", a book about women preaching? I haven't read it yet, but it has a fascinating analysis where all Paul's prohibitions against women teaching are not against teaching but laying down the foundational eyewitness truths of the gospel. That is, as women were not in the 12, they were not really 'apostles'. That leaves expository preaching open, as far as he is concerned.
< sidetrack / >

eclipsenow · Jul 14, 2017

dysert said:
I disagree. Going by your four points:

SOON. We all know that "soon" is a relative term. The meaning is "imminent", i.e., it's the next thing to happen on God's timetable. "Soon" with God is obviously not the same as "soon" with us.

Well at least you're not one of those futurist's who claim to read it literally and then turn around and add 2000 years to the text! You're just immediately symbolising a very plain and literal verse: John meant it was going to start soon. Show me something in the text that could not happen soon!

OBEY. Since we don't know when Christ will return, every generation ought to obey. Obedience is a common theme throughout the entire Bible. The original audience isn't the only one who is called to obedience. Everyone who calls him/herself a Christian should be obeying at all times.

Sorry, but John wanted his generation to obey that message. If that message is off in the future, then no one for 2000 years could even understand it, let alone obey it.

TRIBULATION started THEN. John was in tribulation, no doubt, just as his predecessors had been before their martyrdom. There is a difference, though, between general tribulation and THE tribulation spoken of by Daniel the prophet. THE tribulation is what Revelation is about, and it hasn't started yet.

That is just your assertion. I don't see anything to indicate any different use of 'tribulation' in the text. It's the same thing. Exactly. John shares in their trouble, their persecution, their suffering. So please don't just assert something to be according to the predetermined futuristic paradigm your shoving over the text, show it in the text!

IT ENDS IN THE GOSPEL HOPE. While I don't see how this supports the assertion that Revelation is not futuristic, it does remind its readers that in the end Christians "win".

Any sermon that reminds a suffering generation that God will win in the end is pretty much the same as Revelation. The fact that it shows the return of Christ from 3 different camera angles making 3 different theological points pretty much shows that it is not a sequential timetable!

CrystalDragon · Jul 14, 2017

eclipsenow said:
Many futurists who see Revelation as a timetable for the last generation insist they read it 'literally'. They don't! In their rush to make the book all about them and their generation and their theories about Russia or the Middle East or whatever, they miss the clearest parts of Revelation which actually *are* quite literal. The introduction, the very instruction manual for the book! In Revelation Chapter 1, we'll see 4 key things that mean it was primarily John preparing his generation for serious persecution from the Romans. 4 things!

1. SOON: Revelation 1 shows us that this book was written by John to his generation with a *generic* message about suffering that would break out under Rome but would teach all future generations about obedience to Christ in such terrible situations.
Literally, all these things would “…SOON take place." (Rev 1:1)
"Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is NEAR." (Rev 1:3)

2. OBEY
Note that John wanted his generation to *obey* the message (take it to heart). How do you obey a message all about people 2000 years in the future, and not even about you? You can’t. But John expected *his* generation to *obey* this message, and stay faithful with patient endurance in these times of suffering.

3. *TRIBULATION* started THEN! John shared in it! Rev 1:9 "I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus." (NASB) The tribulation had *already* started, 2000 years ago as the Romans started persecuting the church. Think of the questions early Jewish Christians had at the time. Was the Messiah still going to save Israel from her enemies and kick out the Romans? What was the point of belonging to this 'new Israel', the church, if it didn't guarantee any national or personal security? How were Christians to understand the eventual fall of the temple in AD70? Why was God letting his forgiven people suffer so much? John answers these questions. Revelation is a sermon about suffering, written in rich biblical images. It's like a Marvel Superhero comic with colourful villains we boo and hiss, and a wonderful hero that will most certainly win victory for all. It was written *to* them and specifically *about* them and their suffering. But just as we can read Paul's letters to Ephesus and Corinth and Rome and learn what it means to serve God, we can read this letter to the church suffering Roman persecution and learn.
By teaching John's generation how to suffer under Rome, it also reminds us that our kingdom is eternal, not temporal, spiritual, not political, sometimes poor in this world, but rich in the next. If we listen, and learn the lesson they learned 2000 years ago. If we listen to John we'll be reminded where the *true* temple now is, where true security exists, and how our true home is being prepared. It’s about God calls us to be faithful even when this world asks us to trust in governments and worldly philosophies and riches.

4. IT ENDS IN THE GOSPEL HOPE: It starts with the gospel in chapter 1:2 "who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ." It's not a timetable of the future, it's about the gospel! John says so right here. Sure it ends with 3 graphic descriptions of the return of the Lord (from different camera angles, so to speak). But just because Revelation reminds John's generation of the Lord's eventual return in victory and judgement, it does *not* mean the entire book is a timetable of that return. It's an encouragement to John's generation then, not a timetable for us now. If it were about *us* (and every generation thinks they're pretty special!), then the book has been irrelevant and useless to the church for 2000 years. It would almost be like John saying to his suffering generation, "You think the Romans are bad, wait till you see what happens in 2000 years!" It just doesn't make any sense. John said the persecution was starting soon, he already shared in it, and he wanted *them* to *obey* his message. All his instructions in Chapter 1 are impossible if the whole book is about 2000 years later! Instead, we should read it the way the Reformers read it, as Amillennials. We learn from Revelation about suffering today as we think about Christians in North Korea or various Muslim nations. Christians suffering persecution receive this book with great thanksgiving and are encouraged by it, when they understand what it is *really* saying.
For more on this Amillennial perspective, please buy "Apocalypse Now and then" by Dr Paul Barnett. He's a Sydney Anglican Bishop that also taught ancient history for many years in a local university. It's gold! I encourage you to buy a copy on kindle.

THANK YOU! I've been trying to tell people that for AGES here on these forums!

Also you forgot to mention that John SPECIFICALLY ADDRESSED it to the church leaders at the time, all of whom are long dead now.

rocknanchor · Jul 14, 2017

Hi, Always taking note over the consequences when discussing this book of prophesies. I think I see your point on the timetable and all. With regards to character specifics, is this to lessen that channel to our hearing it by faith?

It seems we are at times taking the long way around the initial purpose of why John was instructed to write those things down – because they were to be observed and heeded.

eclipsenow said:
By teaching John's generation how to suffer under Rome, it also reminds us that our kingdom is eternal, not temporal, spiritual, not political, sometimes poor in this world, but rich in the next.

Well now, strange how it seen not ‘political’, indeed, the ‘kingdom isn’t of this world’, we, conversely are still linked to it and in the sphere of endurance from sure and eventual persecution, we now come face-to-face with a spectrum of political involvement, extremely low to however high. At this point, not to ‘become entangled with the affairs of this life’ won’t always offer space to retreat for the ‘next’ city as Jesus did say. Sometimes, endurance give rise to further required endurance when we may have to make our case for the gospel.

For those who take note upon their community’s conditions, have they fallen from the hope of the unseen ‘kingdom’ if some of the flock begins to impact this civil/political sphere with Romans ch-13 “good”?

As always, to make our case for the gospel “except for these chains.”

Jim Langston · Jul 14, 2017

Soon is a relative term, especially when dealing with God. God told John soon, although what is soon for God is not soon for man. After all,

2 Timothy 2:8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day

Knowing what to obey is easy, God wrote it down. Paul says it thus:

Galatians 5:14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

Jesus put it thus:

Matthew 19:16 Someone came to Jesus with this question: “Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?” 17 “Why ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. But to answer your question—if you want to receive eternal life, keep the commandments.” 18 “Which ones?” the man asked. And Jesus replied: “‘You must not murder. You must not commit adultery. You must not steal. You must not testify falsely. 19 Honor your father and mother. Love your neighbor as yourself.’”

God put it thus:

Ezekial 18:5 “Suppose there is a righteous man who does what is just and right.
6 He does not eat at the mountain shrines or look to the idols of Israel. He does not defile his neighbor’s wife or have sexual relations with a woman during her period. 7 He does not oppress anyone, but returns what he took in pledge for a loan. He does not commit robbery but gives his food to the hungry and provides clothing for the naked. 8 He does not lend to them at interest or take a profit from them. He withholds his hand from doing wrong and judges fairly between two parties. 9 He follows my decrees and faithfully keeps my laws. That man is righteous; he will surely live, declares the Sovereign Lord.

John used the word "tribulation" and you take it to mean The Tribulation when it was only a word describing the troubles (tribulations) Chtistians have when evangelizing. The apostles where all killed because of their profession of faith. That is troubling/tribulating. If you are not having troubles because of your profession of Christ I would call that troublesome.

John 12:25 Anyone who loves their life will lose it, while anyone who hates their life in this world will keep it for eternal life.

It ends in the gospel. Yes, salvation ends at the gospel. The end of the current world, however, ends at the 7th trumpet described in Revelation 11 in the future.

eclipsenow · Jul 15, 2017

Jim Langston said:
Soon is a relative term

Not always, it depends on the context. There are metaphors and there are literal contexts. Jesus to Judas: "What you must do, do quickly!" Literal, or metaphor?

2 Timothy 2:8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day

One of the most misquoted verses in the bible, used to justify a special end-times reading of Revelation that stops it being a 'boring' old sermon about Roman persecution, and changes it profoundly to be all about US! Because, you know, we're the most important generation ever to live, aren't we? The Mormons were founded in a time of Millennial over excitement, the JW's, then there's Jonestown and of course let's not forget David Koresh. Reading Revelation as futurist is just profoundly dangerous!

Also, where does this passage mention 2 days? 2 * 1000 year 'days' and you might have something. But it doesn't use days, does it? It just says soon. The time is NEAR. It's the most literal part of the book of Revelation, but you're making it symbolic for ... what reason? Days? Sorry, irrelevant. John didn't use that biblical symbol in that context.

Knowing what to obey is easy, God wrote it down.

No, John wrote down the Spirit-inspired message he had of comfort for his generation to receive and understand and obey.

Paul says it thus: Galatians 5:14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

Except we're discussing John asking his generation to receive and obey his message, not Paul's or Matthews. His letter to the 7 churches. How were they supposed to understand and receive and obey his message to them unless it was actually about them? For that reasons your quotes from other books are irrelevant. We're looking at how John introduces his own letter! What is it he is writing?

1 The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

Note: It does not say "because the time is in 2 'days'." (Nudge nudge wink wink).

Dave Watchman · Jul 15, 2017

Like, I don't want to argue for or cheer on the end of the world or anything but,

It still cracks me up, all of the amils and preteristas coming out of the woodwork to "agree" and call their erroneous theologies a "winner". All we need now is for Bible+2 to come along and do a half a page refutation. But don't let me make anyone feel bad, I think that all of the eschatological theologies are erroneous, all of them can trace their roots back to and find a home with the seven heads growing out of the composite beast from Revelation 13.

I'm thankful for my country home, it gives me peace of mind. It's somewhere I can walk alone and leave myself behind. So I don't want to see a third of the trees burnt up and all the green grass. I don't want to see the heavens and the earth pass away with a loud noise and the elements burn with fervent heat. But there is a great purpose being worked out down here below. And at some point the Lord is coming back here to roll this whole place up like a scroll and take us back to His Father's House.

There are three great prophetic time periods mentioned in Revelation's narrative, the biggest one started 443 years after John wrote his Isle of Patmos Book. The smaller one, which separates the two larger ones, is what we have likely just recently stepped into. And the last large prophetic time period is not completely recognized by all of the "theologies". But just judging from these prophetic time periods alone, I'd say we're about 3/4's of the way through Revelation's story. Revelation is happening right now in ways that are not commonly recognized. And what we have just recently stepped into, has not yet hit the fan. But I'm afraid that day may come "soon". I'm afraid at some instant that day will culminate with a moment that will leave no Atheist standing. And the Son of Man will be revealed through His Actions.

Peaceful Sabbath.

l_ruth_ · Jul 15, 2017

I have a question regarding the position of equivalent views to Paul Barnett's - would you say that his eschatology could be classified as idealist (as opposed to preterist, futurist or historicist)? Thank you

eclipsenow · Jul 15, 2017

Dave Watchman said:
Like, I don't want to argue for or cheer on the end of the world or anything but,

It still cracks me up, all of the amils and preteristas coming out of the woodwork to "agree" and call their erroneous theologies a "winner". All we need now is for Bible+2 to come along and do a half a page refutation. But don't let me make anyone feel bad, I think that all of the eschatological theologies are erroneous, all of them can trace their roots back to and find a home with the seven heads growing out of the composite beast from Revelation 13.

I'm thankful for my country home, it gives me peace of mind. It's somewhere I can walk alone and leave myself behind. So I don't want to see a third of the trees burnt up and all the green grass. I don't want to see the heavens and the earth pass away with a loud noise and the elements burn with fervent heat. But there is a great purpose being worked out down here below. And at some point the Lord is coming back here to roll this whole place up like a scroll and take us back to His Father's House.

There are three great prophetic time periods mentioned in Revelation's narrative, the biggest one started 443 years after John wrote his Isle of Patmos Book. The smaller one, which separates the two larger ones, is what we have likely just recently stepped into. And the last large prophetic time period is not completely recognized by all of the "theologies". But just judging from these prophetic time periods alone, I'd say we're about 3/4's of the way through Revelation's story. Revelation is happening right now in ways that are not commonly recognized. And what we have just recently stepped into, has not yet hit the fan. But I'm afraid that day may come "soon". I'm afraid at some instant that day will culminate with a moment that will leave no Atheist standing. And the Son of Man will be revealed through His Actions.

Peaceful Sabbath.

Just reasserting futurist assumptions does not prove them. You need to demonstrate your futurist paradigms from scripture. We can all agree that the Lord's final return in victory is a basic part of the gospel. That's great! But where futurist's scare me is the random application of verses about Rome to today's events, and the endless, subjective navel gazing it leads to. EG:

There are three great prophetic time periods mentioned in Revelation's narrative, the biggest one started 443 years after John wrote his Isle of Patmos Book.

How does that make sense of Chapter 1? "Soon", "The times are near", and John definitely wanted his generation to hear and obey his message.

eclipsenow · Jul 15, 2017

l_ruth_ said:
I have a question regarding the position of equivalent views to Paul Barnett's - would you say that his eschatology could be classified as idealist (as opposed to preterist, futurist or historicist)? Thank you

Hi Ruth,
I think I would call it historicist with gospel themes and ideals in the historical and biblical imagery. There are other amil writers that are far less historicist, in that they try to read every single image in Revelation as a biblical image exclusively. But I think Paul Barnett does a good job, from his vast experience as a historian leading tours of the bible lands, of showing some instances where the imagery is both historicist and idealist / biblical: eg, the extremely large hail being a metaphor both for horrible natural disasters and possibly hinting at Roman siege weapons hurling huge marble stones.

l_ruth_ · Jul 15, 2017

eclipsenow said:
Hi Ruth,
I think I would call it historicist with gospel themes and ideals in the historical and biblical imagery. There are other amil writers that are far less historicist, in that they try to read every single image in Revelation as a biblical image exclusively. But I think Paul Barnett does a good job, from his vast experience as a historian leading tours of the bible lands, of showing some instances where the imagery is both historicist and idealist / biblical: eg, the extremely large hail being a metaphor both for horrible natural disasters and possibly hinting at Roman siege weapons hurling huge marble stones.

Just to check my understanding, my follow-up question would be: Barnett's approach is not explicitly preterist in any sense?

eclipsenow · Jul 16, 2017

There's a lot of misunderstanding of preterist. Full vs Partial. Full is absolute heresy, but partial preterism can be compatible with amillennialism.

Some preterist's go too far and try to read verses like this 2 Peter verse as being all about AD70, for example. I don't think Paul Barnett would do that.

2 Peter 3:9-12
9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.

11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat.

Basically, Revelation is biblical symbolism that sometimes overlaps with serious things to say about the Romans persecuting Christians, but is also often using Rome (and / or Babylon) to say things about all the worldly authorities that set themselves up against God. The persecution has a Roman context, but the lessons apply to all Christians across all times, reminding us that there will be a final day of reckoning. (NOT at all Full Preterist). Does that help?

Marilyn C · Jul 16, 2017

eclipsenow said:
1. SOON: Revelation 1 shows us that this book was written by John to his generation with a *generic* message about suffering that would break out under Rome but would teach all future generations about obedience to Christ in such terrible situations.
Literally, all these things would “…SOON take place." (Rev 1:1)
"Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is NEAR." (Rev 1:3)

Hi eclipsenow,

`The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to Him, to show unto His servants things which must shortly come to pass;....` (Rev.1: 1)

Shortly - Gk. word `tachos` meaning - a brief space of time.

So `things` which will be shown, will come about in a brief space of time, when God ordains them. It does not mean they will all take place in John`s time. It describes `how` they will take place. The next scripture tells `when` they will take place.

`Blessed is he that reads, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep these things which are written therein; for the time is at hand.` (Rev. 1: 3)

Time - Gk. word `kairos,` meaning set or proper time.

Thus we see that God has set, appointed times for things to take place and when they do they will come about in a brief space of time.

So ....what are those set, appointed times?

Marilyn.

l_ruth_ · Jul 16, 2017

eclipsenow said:
There's a lot of misunderstanding of preterist. Full vs Partial. Full is absolute heresy, but partial preterism can be compatible with amillennialism.

Some preterist's go too far and try to read verses like this 2 Peter verse as being all about AD70, for example. I don't think Paul Barnett would do that.

2 Peter 3:9-12
9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.

11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat.

Basically, Revelation is biblical symbolism that sometimes overlaps with serious things to say about the Romans persecuting Christians, but is also often using Rome (and / or Babylon) to say things about all the worldly authorities that set themselves up against God. The persecution has a Roman context, but the lessons apply to all Christians across all times, reminding us that there will be a final day of reckoning. (NOT at all Full Preterist). Does that help?

In general I do think it is possible for someone to hold a partial preterist and amillennialist viewpoint, at the same time - however, I do see Revelation as having something important to say about the fall of Jerusalem in the 1st century AD, not just about persecutions. So perhaps there is a cost with some idealist views about eschatology, that they miss what is hiding in plain sight

eclipsenow · Jul 16, 2017

I have to admit that I've not heard any Sydney Anglican sermons on Revelation that discuss it as presenting the fall of Jerusalem. It's more about chaos in nature under God's judgement, chaos in politics (the world, the city, the beast), cycles of judgement and then rest (God's grace and mercy), and everything being wrapped in symbolic cycles of 7 indicating God is in control and history happens in God's perfect time.

eclipsenow · Jul 16, 2017

Marilyn C said:
Hi eclipsenow,

`The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to Him, to show unto His servants things which must shortly come to pass;....` (Rev.1: 1)

Shortly - Gk. word `tachos` meaning - a brief space of time.

So `things` which will be shown, will come about in a brief space of time, when God ordains them. It does not mean they will all take place in John`s time. It describes `how` they will take place. The next scripture tells `when` they will take place.

`Blessed is he that reads, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep these things which are written therein; for the time is at hand.` (Rev. 1: 3)

Time - Gk. word `kairos,` meaning set or proper time.

Thus we see that God has set, appointed times for things to take place and when they do they will come about in a brief space of time.

So ....what are those set, appointed times?

Marilyn.

Hi Marilyn,
shortly means soon, a brief space of time.
You drag out the meaning of "time" at the expense of the meaning of the sentence, and focus on 'set appointed times' and then ask "what are those set, appointed times?"
Easy. Let the rest of the very same verse tell you.
"the time is near."

l_ruth_ · Jul 17, 2017

eclipsenow said:
I have to admit that I've not heard any Sydney Anglican sermons on Revelation that discuss it as presenting the fall of Jerusalem. It's more about chaos in nature under God's judgement, chaos in politics (the world, the city, the beast), cycles of judgement and then rest (God's grace and mercy), and everything being wrapped in symbolic cycles of 7 indicating God is in control and history happens in God's perfect time.

Thank you for the response. Do you think there is a reason why Sydney Anglican sermons do not seem to have anything explicitly preterist to say about eschatology? do you think this could be motivated by a sense there is a danger somewhere in the spectrum between full and partial preterism, for example

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