Universalism...why not?

ClementofA said:

Death is an enemy of mankind.

Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses...(Rom.5:14a)

Death reigns over those in the lake of fire who died a second time.

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Yes. And death will not come to an end, until the last wicked person dies. Death will then be done away with.

ClementofA said:

Christ will abolish all authority & power including that of death.

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Christ will conquer all enemies power, including that of death. Christ doesn't abolish his own power, in stead, he gives that power BACK to his God .... who gave Christ his power.
"All authority" does NOT include the "EXCEPTION"....
1 Cor 15:27 But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to him.

So, no, "all authority" doesn't include the authority Jehovah/YHVH God gave to Jesus, and which Jesus will give back to his God.

ClementofA said:

Christ gave Himself a Ransom for all

1 Timothy 2:4-6
4 Who wills that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one Mediator of God and mankind, a Man, Christ Jesus,
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

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Yes, there is one mediator BETWEEN God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
And YES, God gave His only begotten son, that WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH in him, might be saved. BUT, those that do NOT believe, are condemned!!

ClementofA said:

Dartman said:

And it says "in Adam".
We know "in Adam" means as a result of Adam's actions. The exact same is true of Jesus, as a result of Jesus' actions he was given the power to resurrect;

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And your point is? Like i said:

Verse 22 also speaks of those "in Christ".

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No it doesn't. It talks about LIFE being "in Christ".
"Those in Christ" are not mentioned until verse 23

Dartman said:

Yes. And death will not come to an end, until the last wicked person dies. Death will then be done away with.

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In 1 Cor.15:22-28 we have death abolished & God becoming all in all.

That hasn't happened yet while there are those dead & alive in the LOF:

And the devil who deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] both the beast and the false prophet; and they shall be tormented day and night for the ages of ages. (Rev.20:10)

And those being tormented are alive, not endlessly annihilated as in your theory.

ClementofA said:

Of course there are two different paths leading up to the time of casting into the LOF.

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No. There are two paths , with two different ENDS... two different FINAL RESULTS.
Matt 13:49-50 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, 50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Rom 6:21-23 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. 22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Phil 3:18-19 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

Your theory that 2nd death is NOT their end, contradicts the Scriptures!

ClementofA said:

Revelation 21:5 speaks after that event & of God making (not having already made) ALL new.

At that point what is there that still needs to be made new?

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Let's check how Peter explains it;
2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
2 Peter 3:10-13 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

According to Peter, it is the heavens and the earth that need to be made new!!

Dartman said:

No it doesn't. It talks about LIFE being "in Christ".
"Those in Christ" are not mentioned until verse 23

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Obviously the context is speaking of persons being raised. Christ, saints, those in Adam, all, i.e. those.

22 For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified."

In doesn't say "by Christ" but IN Christ.

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creation: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. (2 Cor.5:17)

ClementofA said:

In 1 Cor.15:22-28 we have death abolished & God becoming all in all.

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We have Jesus reigning, and destroying all of his enemies, by the power his God has given him, the LAST of those enemies is death. This happens because all those who rejected his God, have already been destroyed.... and there is no one else subject to death.

ClementofA said:

Dartman said:

No it doesn't. It talks about LIFE being "in Christ".
"Those in Christ" are not mentioned until verse 23

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Obviously the context is speaking of persons being raised. Christ, saints, those in Adam, all, i.e. those.

22 For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified."

In doesn't say "by Christ" but IN Christ.

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Yes, LIFE is in Christ (like death is in Adam) .... not "all humanity is in Christ". All of humanity will be resurrected, but they are NOT all "they that are Christ's". We KNOW "they that are Christ's" are resurrected in the FIRST resurrection, and "the REST of the dead lived not again until the thousand years are finished".

Dartman said:

Yes, there is one mediator BETWEEN God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
And YES, God gave His only begotten son, that WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH in him, might be saved. BUT, those that do NOT believe, are condemned!!

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Release from death is called a ransom:

Shall I ransom them from the power of Sheol? Shall I redeem them from death? (Hosea 13:14)

Christ gave Himself a Ransom for all

1 Timothy 2:4-6
4 Who wills that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one Mediator of God and mankind, a Man, Christ Jesus,
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Therefore those in the second death will be freed from death.

Dartman said:

Yes, LIFE is in Christ (like death is in Adam) .... not "all humanity is in Christ". All of humanity will be resurrected, but they are NOT all "they that are Christ's". We KNOW "they that are Christ's" are resurrected in the FIRST resurrection, and "the REST of the dead lived not again until the thousand years are finished".

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That's not a resurrection of people "in Christ" but by Christ.

22 For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified."

In doesn't say "by Christ" but IN Christ.

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creation: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. (2 Cor.5:17)

Dartman said:

No. There are two paths , with two different ENDS... two different FINAL RESULTS.

Phil 3:18-19 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

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This is easily harmonized with the Scriptural teaching of universalism, the salvation of all:

"So God said to Noah, "I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth." (Gen.6:13)

The "end" of all people was "destruction" by God. This already happened. Yet they are not annihilated forever. And they will be resurrected. Their "end" was only a temporary end or result. Not final destiny.

The earth was destroyed not endlessly annihilated.

If something so horrific as endless annihilation were meant, God had words He could have used to express it, but didn't. Such as "endless", "no end", "eternal"(aidios). Since He never chose to use such words, He didn't teach endless annihilation.

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. These things command and teach.

1 Timothy 2:4-6
4 Who wills that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one Mediator of God and mankind, a Man, Christ Jesus,
6 Who is giving Himself a correspondent Ransom for all (the testimony in its own eras),

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

ClementofA said:

Christ gave Himself a Ransom for all

1 Timothy 2:4-6
4 Who wills that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one Mediator of God and mankind, a Man, Christ Jesus,
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

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Only those who believe will be ransomed to LIFE.
Matt 13:49-50 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, 50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Rom 6:21-23 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. 22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Phil 3:18-19 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

ClementofA said:

Therefore those in the second death will be freed from death.

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NO, there is no ransom from 2nd death.... only from first death. And those in 2nd death have ALREADY used up that ransome from the grave! There isn't a "second ransom", and you know it.

ClementofA said:

Dartman said:

Yes, LIFE is in Christ (like death is in Adam) .... not "all humanity is in Christ". All of humanity will be resurrected, but they are NOT all "they that are Christ's". We KNOW "they that are Christ's" are resurrected in the FIRST resurrection, and "the REST of the dead lived not again until the thousand years are finished".

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That's not a resurrection of people "in Christ" but by Christ.

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Verse 23 is the resurrection of those "in Christ". Verse 22 isn't talking about "those in Christ". It's talking about LIFE being "in Christ", like death is "in Adam".

ClementofA said:

Dartman said:

Matt 13:49-50 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, 50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Rom 6:21-23 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. 22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Phil 3:18-19 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

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This is easily harmonized with the Scriptural teaching of universalism, the salvation of all:

"So God said to Noah, "I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth." (Gen.6:13)

The "end" of all people was "destruction" by God. This already happened. Yet they are not annihilated forever. And they will be resurrected.

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They were annihilated. Yes, they will be brought back to life, back to existence. First death isn't permanent. Second death is. There was still death after the flood, because there were/are still mortals. After second death, there will be no more death. That's the END. Everlasting life is only for those who "become servants to God" in THIS life.

Dartman said:

No. There are two paths , with two different ENDS... two different FINAL RESULTS.
Matt 13:49-50 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, 50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

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Wailing? That isn't endless annihilation. That isn't even death.

"For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt."

ClementofA said:

Dartman said:

No. There are two paths , with two different ENDS... two different FINAL RESULTS.
Matt 13:49-50 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, 50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

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Wailing? That isn't endless annihilation. That isn't even death.

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Of course not! The wailing PRECEDES the death!!!
But, riddle me this, Batman! If YOUR theory is correct, and they are merely given a 2nd chance, what's with the wailing and gnashing of teeth??
The wailing proves they KNOW they are about to be destroyed ..... NOT that they are about to be forgiven!!!

Heading to bed... 11:30 here.
I suspect I will have to straighten you out in the morning.

Dartman said:

Verse 23 is the resurrection of those "in Christ". Verse 22 isn't talking about "those in Christ". It's talking about LIFE being "in Christ", like death is "in Adam".

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V.22 speaks of how all humanity will be given life, i.e. "in Christ":

22 For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified."

In doesn't say "by Christ" but IN Christ.

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creation: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. (2 Cor.5:17)

Dartman said:

Of course not! The wailing PRECEDES the death!!!

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The order of verse 50 is the opposite of that:

Matt 13:49-50 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, 50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Dartman said:

Everlasting life is only for those who "become servants to God" in THIS life.

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There's no Scripture in support of that & much against it.

Dartman said:

No. There are two paths , with two different ENDS... two different FINAL RESULTS.

Rom 6:21-23 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. 22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

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The scriptures never speak of eternal or endless death. In fact death will be abolished (1 Cor.15:22-28).

If something so horrific as endless death or annihilation were meant, God had words He could have used to express it, but didn't. Such as "endless", "no end", "eternal"(aidios). Since He never chose to use such words re the final destiny of any unbeliever, He didn't teach endless annihilation or torments.

For the outcome of those things is death. (Rom.6:21b, NASB)
Those things result in death! (Rom.6:21b, NIV)

Even though you experienced the end (or result or outcome) spoken of as death in Romans 6:21, that result for you did not cause you to be endlessly annihilated, did it? And neither will it for anyone else. For all will eventually be saved:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying.

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."