Philosophical/theological problem: evil in the Church

jsimms615 said:

Having worked in the church before, I have had similar thoughts. In many cases, those who rise in the ranks of the church don't appear to be the most spiritually mature, but perhaps the ones who are better at manipulating the system and getting what they want. Many smaller churches are like that especially when two or three families take over a church and all of its programs and it isn't how spiritually mature you are but who you know that matters. It can be very disappointing to see.

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Were you on About.com?

When being a Christian became socially advantageous, those seeking social advantage became "Christians." Such people--who are Christians for the social advantage--will also be the very people with a "self before service" attitude that will propel them up the ranks ahead of the "service before self" people.

The Church organization is not shielded from the Iron Law of Bureaucracy when membership is according to the ways of the world instead of the drawing of the Lord.

Baruch Hashem, InnTee!

EDIT: so many small things left undone, I'm sure I didn't address everything yout wanted, so I'll try again if I need to. .... And I expanded some after work. Apologies for my vanity in answering at length.

InnTee said:

I've been struggling for years with a theological problem that I can't quite see through. It's this: why would God ever allow evil to be done in God's name?

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The simpliest (and hardest) answer is because He loves us, and will not do violence to His creation.

More complicated is that He does not allow it so much as He suffers it to be done, again because He loves us.

To go further, we have to explore the nature of evil itself -which is not pursued in Holy Writ. So a little (more) Philosophy and a little (more) Theology has to be used. But first, a little rabbit hole on the Will of God and its relation to God in Himself.

He does not will evil to be done in His Name, He does not 'allow' evil to be done in His Name, but He suffers evil done in His Name in the same that He suffers all evil "for a little while", for "the Kingdom of Heaven suffers violence and violent men take it by force"(Matthew 11:12). God in Himself does not suffer of course, because He does not change.

God's permissive will is not God's perfect will. God's 'permissive will' is how God gave us up to the lusts of our heart (Romans 1:12, Psalms 81:12), it is the will that stores up the fullness of wrath (James 5:3 , Romans 2:5). God's 'perfect' will is health and salvation, but His 'permissive' will allows wrath to build up "against all ungodliness", but in actuality, His will is one because He is One; moreover He is without change.

Oh look, another rabbit hole on the divine perfections!

He does not change His will or mind, because in Him His Essence is His Existence, and His Mind and Will are identical, and He is pure act with no potential for moving from imperfection to perfection, thus no change.

In us this is not so, our essence and existence are not identical, we are full of potential to become, so in us is there is the principle and potential of change. Change can lead to privation, a loosing of some quality, which in turn becomes the ground of evil.

Evil, according to Theology, is a privation, an absence of some good. Thus there is a physical (body, mind and emotions), moral, and spiritual privation in creation, thus the possibility for evil. Creation by its very nature is limited, and finte, thus it can and does change, and suffer loss, can become 'evil'. It is only in becoming completely filled by God (overshadowed by His Holy Spirit) that we become good.

Back to God, His Love, and a little about our wills.

I mentioned God suffers violence to be done in His Name because of His love. This love of God for Creation is His gift, wherein He made us "in the image and likeness of God" (Genesis 1:27), and created us to be His agent-intellects and stewards on earth, having a full independent power of agency to enact real changes, reducing potentialities to act. But it can go either way, and as the creation story shows about Adam "he chose...wrongly". And we've beens choosing wrongly ever since. Ahem.

It's a steep price to pay, but one God was/is willing to lay, otherwise He would have sent not a Suffering Servant, but an avenging Warrior Angel or Messianic Warrior-King and Teacher of intertestamental Judaism *cough* Essences *cough*

We're not really going to understand the "permission of evil" this side of the Second Coming though , so I'm sure I've missed a few things here, which I'll try to correct of opportunity presents itself. But for now, this is the best i can do. I hope it helps.

Chesterton said:

On the importance of free will - it's not just something we have, it's what we are. We are wills, we are agents. Humans have a lot in common with other kinds of matter, with rocks and trees and animals, but it's this that sets us apart. Asking God to constrain our wills is like asking God to destroy us as humans, to make us something we're not, like kitchen appliances where you just push a button and they do what they're "supposed" to. So will is not just an important thing, it's everything.

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But if God allows free will--even if it results in evil--that raises another issue. God is claimed to be sovereign and to have a divine plan for the universe. This would mean nothing can occur that is contrary to God's overall design. So we must conclude that misery and suffering caused by evil must be part of God's grand plan. Which contradicts the notion of free will. We still have a paradox. Am I stating this clearly?

jayem said:

But if God allows free will--even if it results in evil--that raises another issue. God is claimed to be sovereign and to have a divine plan for the universe. This would mean nothing can occur that is contrary to God's overall design. So we must conclude that misery and suffering caused by evil must be part of God's grand plan. Which contradicts the notion of free will. We still have a paradox. Am I stating this clearly?

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God gives us free will, similar to how a we give our children free will by giving birth to them, but this doesn't mean he allows us to disobey, similar to how good parents don't allow their children to disobey. If disobedience happens, God corrects it, but this doesn't mean he allows disobedience/evil, it actually means quite the opposite, God rebukes disobedience/evil.

Walsinghsm Way said:

Baruch Hashem, InnTee!

EDIT: so many small things left undone, I'm sure I didn't address everything yout wanted, so I'll try again if I need to. .... And I expanded some after work. Apologies for my vanity in answering at length.

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So yeah, I heavily redacted my earlier post. Sorry guys. (But what a cool post number it was!)

jayem said:

But if God allows free will--even if it results in evil--that raises another issue. God is claimed to be sovereign and to have a divine plan for the universe. This would mean nothing can occur that is contrary to God's overall design. So we must conclude that misery and suffering caused by evil must be part of God's grand plan. Which contradicts the notion of free will. We still have a paradox. Am I stating this clearly?

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No, I think this is a non-sequitur:

• God is claimed to be sovereign and to have a divine plan for the universe.
• This would mean nothing can occur that is contrary to God's overall design.

I don't think being sovereign and having a plan means nothing contrary can occur.

Being a mission-oriented, operational kind of guy, I don't really see how this question is a problem in going out and accomplishing the mission of the Body of Christ.

Chesterton said:

No, I think this is a non-sequitur:

• God is claimed to be sovereign and to have a divine plan for the universe.
• This would mean nothing can occur that is contrary to God's overall design.

I don't think being sovereign and having a plan means nothing contrary can occur.

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Do you really think God would allow an occurrence that was not in accord with his plans? As I understand traditional Christian teaching, there are some events that are central to God's plan. Like Jesus's death as remission for sin. Could Pilate have chosen to spare Jesus from execution? And if so, could Jesus have survived to die of natural causes at a ripe old age? Isn't the fall of man another paramount event? Could Adam and Eve have chosen not to disobey God?

How would you even know if any particular event was or was not ordained by God?

InnTee said:

I've been struggling for years with a theological problem that I can't quite see through. It's this: why would God ever allow evil to be done in God's name?

There are a number of examples of actions by those purporting to act in God's name that seem positively evil. These include recent history (clergy abuse scandals), somewhat older history (Inquisition, Crusades), and Biblical history ("bad" kings of Israel). It's possible to quibble with any of these, but I think the general proposition stands that some very bad things have been done, publicly, in the name of the Church. So I throw these out not for specific debate in this thread, but just as examples of the sorts of problems that trouble me.

My concern is that it does not seem that a loving and kind God would allow humans to publicly misrepresent him by doing evil in his name. So does that mean God is not loving and kind? Or God does not exist (or does not have the power to lead his people)? Or that God values humans' free will even more than the integrity of his "body" in this world, the Church?

If anyone has thoughts or can point me to thoughtful resources in this area, I'd appreciate it! Also, if this has been extensively discussed already in some other thread, please feel free to post a link. My searching hasn't unearthed much...

Thanks in advance for any thoughts!

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Hi InTee,
I see three questions here all of which can be answered straight out of the Bible itself.
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1. My concern is that it does not seem that a loving and kind God would allow humans to publicly misrepresent him by doing evil in his name. So does that mean God is not loving and kind?
2. Or God does not exist (or does not have the power to lead his people)?
3. Or that God values humans' free will even more than the integrity of his "body" in this world, the Church?

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1. You state that, "It does not seem that a loving and kind God would allow humans to publicly misrepresent him by doing evil in his name". My answer is that God demonstrated His love towards us that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for the ungodly. If He followed the above premise than immediately after the Fall He should have taken us out but in His love and mercy He did not.

   • The exegesis of this said:

     [*]In Genesis humans were created to actually represent God on planet Earth:
     [*]Genesis 1:26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”
     [*]This implies God would represent His own likeness through the agency of creating human beings upon the earth. We were in essence the caretakers of His beautiful and wonderful creation. Notice it says "Let Us (asah) make man in our image". This is the first reference to the nature of God and Trinity for the word for God here is ;Elohim', which takes on the plural form. This may seem ancillary to the discussion but it's an important point since the Father, Son (In this case Christ the Word or Logos) and the Spirit are all represented in the creative process.
     [*]Thus we can conclude that it was a great act of love that God created us endowed our souls with His love, wisdom, and power to bless the Earth and everything within it. We were His masterpiece and the crown of His creation.
     [*]We should note humanity had free will and free reign. Though masters over the wonderful earthly creation we were created to do the Will of God, which means that to execute God's Will on earth we must obey His commands Jesus, would later say the same thing to us.
     

     • John 14:15 (NKJV) — “If you love Me, keep My commandments.
       
     • John 14:21 “He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”
     • John 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.
     • John 14:24 “He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me.

     [*]So the act of obedience implies free will, clearly because we have an option to either obey or disobey. With love free will is a necessary component. You cannot coerce someone to love you and call it love; for love must be an act of free will and individual volition. We were told to stay clear of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. We did not know what evil was but had the ability to disobey. The act of disobedience then broke the bonds of this love, trust, goodness; basically our relationship with God was ruined, as well as our relationship with one another. The sin was at once at all levels, idolatry, dishonoring the Father, usurping or stealing, adultery, coveting and usurping Divine authority. No doubt the Fall was worse than we though. We realized this right away which is why we hid ourselves from God feeling depraved and naked before Him. Sin enslaves and we had adulterated ourselves with darkness and the evil one, whose knowledge permeated our souls.
     [*]Back to your hypothesis: "It does not seem that a loving and kind God would allow humans to publicly misrepresent him by doing evil in his name". So, yes God could have just ended us right there but I disagree that this is representative of the love and kindness of God. The other side, I suppose, is why didn't God just coerce us instead of implore us to obey but we have already seen that love and kindness do NOT equal coercion.
     [*]Instead God immediately prophesied and proclaimed that through the agency of time in this temporal world would destroy the work of the evil one. He declared to him:
     

     • Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heel.”
     • From the woman's seed would come Christ Jesus who would have His heel bruised but crush the head of the serpent (the evil one)
     • https://www.forbes.com/sites/kristi...rucifixion-in-the-ancient-world/#3d0497d3476d

     [*]So does that mean God is not loving and kind for not destroying counterfeits right away? We humans who were supposed to represent His goodness have done the opposite for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Yet the love of God demonstrates the mercy of God. Yet what about justice? Yes, the cross of Christ in that He would take the curse for our sins which are all done in opposition to God exacts His justice for all time. Repenting and believing on the Savior and what He has done for us is our restoration and it is this message God offers to us that we might see His Salvation to the ends of the earth.
     [*]Conclusion: God's longsuffering toward all sinners until the Gospel has gone out to the ends of the earth as a witness and a way back to wholesomeness in God is an illustration of His great love and kindness.
     [*]

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2. God does not exist (or does not have the power to lead his people)?
   • This is a false assumption. Based on the Narrative found in His Holy Word, God certainly exists and does have the power to lead His people. He does so by putting His Spirit in us who have believed, turning from our sins to Christ and transforming our minds and hearts to be in one accord with His. So God is in the process of making a new man from the old, although it can be inferred that we are in embryonic stage and do not yet fully know our fulfilment in Him as John says.
   • 1 John 3:2
   • Galatians 4:19
   • Suffice to say, as Paul infers above, we are being formed into the image of Christ. We are developing new arms, legs, hands, feet, eyes, ears, mouth, and mind in the image of Christ, who is with us to the end of the age, to represent Him to the ends of the earth and proclaim His life saving Gospel. His Church, therefore, is on mission with Him through the Holy Spirit who works Christ's life-saving mission to transform sinful descendants of dead Adam to the ascendents of the living Christ; transferring us from the dark kingdom of death to the glorious light of the kingdom of God with great power that can move mountains; for the gates of hell cannot prevail against the Gospel and the Church (the body of believers in Christ).
3. Or that God values humans' free will even more than the integrity of his "body" in this world, the Church?
   • Love and free will, as discussed in #1, are synonymous with one another. God has provided an age for the merciful Gospel to go out to the ends of the earth. He warned us that fowls would rest in the branches of the Kingdom and that there would be enemies within the Church - tares and wheat - beforehand. He said not to uproot them just as He himself gave the so called prophetess Jezebel time to repent. Waiting illustrates His mercy so I don't understand the supposed postulate of coercive love. Do you? I do, however, understand this, however. While God has given us a time whereby we may repent and turn toward Him and be saved by the power of Christ and His cross - justice is coming and will be proportionate.
   • Rev 2:20-21 "Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent. http://www.blbclassic.org/Bible.cfm?b=Rev&c=2&t=NKJV#fnt/0_0
     2Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.​

In Christ,
John 17:20

jayem said:

But if God allows free will--even if it results in evil--that raises another issue. God is claimed to be sovereign and to have a divine plan for the universe. This would mean nothing can occur that is contrary to God's overall design. So we must conclude that misery and suffering caused by evil must be part of God's grand plan. Which contradicts the notion of free will. We still have a paradox. Am I stating this clearly?

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Yes - but it shows a limited understanding of how God works. God is not limited to our understanding of logic. Things that appear to be paradoxes to our limited understanding may fit together perfectly well in HIS scheme of things.

And we know from the scriptural record (Ex: Joseph being sold into slavery) that God will use our sinful decisions and weave them into His ultimate goals.

InnTee said:

I've been struggling for years with a theological problem that I can't quite see through. It's this: why would God ever allow evil to be done in God's name?

There are a number of examples of actions by those purporting to act in God's name that seem positively evil. These include recent history (clergy abuse scandals), somewhat older history (Inquisition, Crusades), and Biblical history ("bad" kings of Israel). It's possible to quibble with any of these, but I think the general proposition stands that some very bad things have been done, publicly, in the name of the Church. So I throw these out not for specific debate in this thread, but just as examples of the sorts of problems that trouble me.

My concern is that it does not seem that a loving and kind God would allow humans to publicly misrepresent him by doing evil in his name. So does that mean God is not loving and kind? Or God does not exist (or does not have the power to lead his people)? Or that God values humans' free will even more than the integrity of his "body" in this world, the Church?

If anyone has thoughts or can point me to thoughtful resources in this area, I'd appreciate it! Also, if this has been extensively discussed already in some other thread, please feel free to post a link. My searching hasn't unearthed much...

Thanks in advance for any thoughts!

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It is another example of where Christ is crucified.

People, believers or otherwise, will always be compelled or tempted by conflicting desires, while needing to justify whatever those desires are before they act on them. We all want and need to be in the right, regardless of how wrong we might be; we're created as moral beings. In fact, all wrong acts are driven by some perceived good result. Sometimes Christians may justify some particular behavior in the name of God, sincerely believing, at the time, that they're doing His will. And, being human they may be influenced by the values of the world around them. The Church has lived through very different times than we live in now. But this only means that her members haven't always heeded her very own gospel.

So there's no absolute black and white distinction in terms of moral behavior between God's followers and the rest of the world, although, ideally, there certainly should be. Humans find ways to do what they want anyway, and it's a struggle all through life to get better and better at doing the "right thing".

But we cannot dismiss the fruits of the Church which have been huge, and consistent, down through the centuries as well. Clothing the naked, feeding the poor, caring for the sick-hospitals and orphanages and rehabilitation centers and preserving education and developing the educational and university systems, strides in science/knowledge, offering hope and light in an often very dark world, promoting the pursuit of excellence in general, countless hours of charitable volunteer work and amounts of wealth donated, social justice endeavors, loving our enemies when our natural inclination is to vanquish them, making altruism an authentic human value. All inspired by the ideal presented by the gospel.

Dave-W said:

Yes - but it shows a limited understanding of how God works. God is not limited to our understanding of logic. Things that appear to be paradoxes to our limited understanding may fit together perfectly well in HIS scheme of things.

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What you're saying is that it comes down to faith. I'm not a religious believer, but I agree that there is no other answer. The problem of evil is an unsolvable dilemma by human intelligence. If you're a Christian, you just have to have faith that God will work everything out in the end.

And we know from the scriptural record (Ex: Joseph being sold into slavery) that God will use our sinful decisions and weave them into His ultimate goals.

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I may be getting off topic, but to touch on my point about free will, how can you know that your decision really is your own? Isn't it possible that God could be directing your choice pursuant to fulfilling his goals? He's done that before. In Exodus, God hardens Pharaoh's heart against releasing the Hebrews more that once, until the time was right. How can anyone know if free will exists at all?

This probably should be a new thread.

jayem said:

What you're saying is that it comes down to faith.

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Indeed. But it also is a matter of the logic framework one uses.

In our greek based logic from Aristotle, things can be seen to be mutually exclusive. However, the bible seems to use another framework known as Hebraic Block logic or adductive logic. Many things that are "either-or" in Aristotelian logic become "both-and" in Hebraic logic.

Aristotelian logic works very well as long as you are dealing ONLY with the natural physical world. But once you make the jump to the supernatural world, Hebraic Block Logic must be used.

InnTee said:

These include recent history (clergy abuse scandals),

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This was never done in the name of the church or the name of God. It was done in secret.

Hank77 said:

This was never done in the name of the church or the name of God. It was done in secret.

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Yep, largely self-preservation mentality operative there in all likelihood.

Hank77 said:

This was never done in the name of the church or the name of God. It was done in secret.

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But in full view of a god who had the power to stop it.

possibletarian said:

But in full view of a god who had the power to stop it.

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That is a whole other discussion outside what is OP is discussing, in my opinion, so I'm not going to respond to it.

InnTee said:

But back to the original question, if anyone's interested: why would God ever allow his church to be debased, and his name dragged in the mud?

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I think the simplest answer is because He doesn't need us to defend Him. He's revealed the Truth about Himself to us in Scripture.

No Christian, not a single one, is ever going to be able to perfectly represent God this side of heaven. The only way what you're asking could be accomplished would be if there was no sin in the world.