And believes....continual action
For God judges those within and without.
"5723 Tense - Present
Voice - Active
Mood - Participle
"
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The Paradox of Calvinism and Arminianism (An Opinion)
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For God judges those within and without.
"5723 Tense - Present
Voice - Active
Mood - Participle
"
"He who believes in the one that sent me"
This is deep...
Who sent Jesus? God
Then, We must go through the door[Jesus] where we are Justified by the faith of Jesus [which was obedience to God even unto death]
This is why to know Him is to keep His commands.
How then are we Justified? This is the faith that works through love.
For the outcome of walking after the spirit produces the will[the desire to continue on in zealous works.
So yes, the passage is part of being delivered[saved]
The source of Salvation by His own obedience to God equals Jesus Christ.
We have nothing to do with How Jesus became the source of salvation, "our refuge." Yet there is effort in "entering His rest." So do we play a part in being the source of salvation? No, but do we play a part in being saved? Yes. Asked those in The day of Noah. And I bet Noah would say He was not only guided in building the ark, but had to get in it, and remain in it to be continually saved through the waters of wrath until that end.
The "works of righteousness" being referred to is where we become the direct source to God without Jesus.
It has already been proven that no one could keep the law by their own flesh, but the one who God offered up, His Son Jesus.
Having said that ...He saved us not by any works of righteousness we have done, but through[by], [the source] the washing of regeneration(his death where, He shed his blood, and His blood is applied- when we trust and continually trust Him) and renewal of the Spirit [God at work in those who walk after the Spirit]
"By grace are we saved through faith"
This is on going
This is my take, from my understanding so plz study and read for yourselves.
Romans 4:25
"He arose for our Justification" He didn't die so we wouldn't have to. He died so we could live out our life [have abundant life] through His by surrendering our own lives. He died so we would join Him on the cross, Dallas Willard
So I asked the question again, how many times was Abraham Justified?
And can we pass from death to life more than once?
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Oldmantook
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Your resorting to proof-texting does not resolve the conflict with Phil 2:12 as you still have to explain why we are instructed to work out our salvation if we have already passed from death to life. Moreover you neglect the present tense participles in the verses you cited which indicate that one must be "believing" in order to not come into judgment. If one ceases to believe, judgment and condemnation is the result.
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Of course we must be believers continually, that proves our faith genuine. Especially as we continue to believe through suffering.
Regarding faith that is how God decided to justify a man, and it is accomplished by His grace towards you so that the promise of eternal life is made sure to all the seed of Abraham, who is the father of all believers.
See it is an accomplished completed work your salvation by faith through grace not of yourselves being the gift of God.
Romans 4:16
Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all
Romans 9:7-9New King James Version (NKJV)
7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”
1 Peter 1New King James Version (NKJV)
Greeting to the Elect Pilgrims
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:
Grace to you and peace be multiplied.
A Heavenly Inheritance
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.
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You are conflicted and twisting scriptures. How many have you condemned in your heart?
Salvation is a free gift and is a free gift of righteousness from God to believers.
John 3:18
“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Romans 5:15-17New King James Version (NKJV)
15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)
Romans 8:33-35New King James Version (NKJV)
33 Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
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Oldmantook
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Your reply does not negate the possibility that IF believers do not continue on in belief and apostatize from the faith, then they are no longer justified and do not have salvation. In Lk 8:13, Jesus refers to those believers who "believe for a while" but in time of testing, fall away. These were genuine believers, not unbelievers, (since the believe for a while) but because they encountered a "time of testing" Jesus stated that they fell away. One cannot fall away from the faith if one never belonged to the faith in the first place. So to claim that salvation is a "completed work" is not supported by the scriptures as we are commanded to "work out" our salvation with fear and trembling. The scriptures refer to being saved in the past, present and future tenses - not only the past (completed) tense.
Ironically, the scriptures you cite in 1 Peter 1 do not support your notion that our salvation is a completed work as the verb tenses in this passage are present tense participles. In v.5, who are kept - kept is the word phrouroumenous which is a present tense participle better translated as "being kept/guarded." This verse simply states that we are presently being kept/guarded for salvation. It does not state or even imply that we will in the future continue to be kept/guarded. This makes sense as obviously a believer can cease to and no longer believe at which time he/she ceases from being kept/guarded.
Same thing with 1 Pet 1:8-9 as "believing" and "receiving" are present tense participles. These are not one-time occurrences of having believed and received (aorist tense). Instead, as one continues believing, one continues receiving salvation - therefore not a completed work.
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Oldmantook
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Conflicted and twisted? I doubt it. Salvation is indeed a free gift but it requires a believer to fulfill his/her part of the covenant relationship with God. I as a father can purchase and give my son a free car to use for college but I can stipulate that in order to keep the car, he must maintain good grades. Similarly, salvation requires both ongoing belief (Jn 3:16) and ongoing obedience (Heb 5:9). Do you think that if you choose to refuse to forgive others, God will still forgive you according to Matt 6:15?
In reply to Rom 5:15-17. While it is true that we are made righteous in Christ (positional justification) the scriptures also demand that we obey and practice righteousness in our lives (practical justification). "Little children (believers), let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous" (1 Jn 3:7). "If you know that he is righteous, you may be sure that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him" (1 Jn 2:29). Justification demands that we also live righteously. To cite positional justification only twists the scriptures.
In reply to Rom 8:33-35. Do you see anywhere in these verses any reference at all to sin? It references tribulation, persection...but no mention of sin at all. That is because sin separates us from the love of Christ. Earlier in this chapter, Paul warns the brethren in Rome: "For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live" (Rom 8:13). Spiritual death is the result of chronic disobedience demonstrated by living according to the flesh.
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Born again Christians do not sin. Here are 3 verses saying that very thing.
Their flesh may sin, but their spirit does not sin as it has been born of God.(born again), which is why salvation is eternal not temporary. God can not abide sin in His people, Christ said you will be perfect even as your Father in Heaven is perfect.
1 John 3:6
Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
1 John 3:9
Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
1 John 5:18
[ Knowing the True—Rejecting the False ] We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.
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No more remembrance of sins, says God for those in the NC.
God chooses to be merciful to the unrighteousness of His people, they actually get a pass as to regarding sins and spiritual death. They have eternal life, their sins will not affect their inheriting eternal life. Heavenly rewards are different. Christians are not judged by the sins they do regarding eternal life.
Hebrews 8:12
For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”
Hebrews 10:17
then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”
God chooses to be merciful to the unrighteousness of His people, they actually get a pass as to regarding sins and spiritual death. They have eternal life, their sins will not affect their inheriting eternal life. Heavenly rewards are different. Christians are not judged by the sins they do regarding eternal life.
Hebrews 8:12
For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”
Hebrews 10:17
then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”
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Oldmantook
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If you wish to have a productive discussion, then it is incumbent upon you to either acknowledge my argumentation in my last reply as being valid, or if not valid, submit any scriptural evidence which nullifies my claim. Failing to do so and simply moving on to another subject only weakens your claim.
You wrote: "Born again Christians do not sin....Their flesh may sin, but their spirit does not sin as it has been born of God.(born again), which is why salvation is eternal not temporary."
Your statement reflects Gnosticism which believes that spirit is pure and desirable, but matter and the flesh is evil and detestable. Gnosticism is heresy. There are no scriptures in all of the Bible that distinguish between the spirit or flesh sinning. The scriptures always refer to the person who sins and not a dichotomy between his flesh or spirit.
Furthermore, the 3 passages you cite in 1 John do not support your notion that Christians do not sin. EVERYONE sins including Christians (1 Jn 1:8,10). Furthermore, the translation you referenced fails to provide an accurate rendering of the present tense verbs used in these verses.
1 Jn 3:6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him (ESV).
1 Jn 3:9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God (ESV).
1 Jn 5:18 We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him (ESV).
Christians who keep on sinning demonstrate that have not repented of their sins since they obviously still practice sinning. Therefore no forgiveness is possible since they are not seeking forgiveness and have not repented of the sins which they keep on committing. If a Christian turns away from habitual sin and seeks forgiveness, then God is able to grant forgiveness. That is why Paul solemnly warned - If you live according to the flesh (habitual sin) YOU WILL DIE.
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Your borderline bullying type behavior ought to get reported by someone, by saying this here.
"If you wish to have a productive discussion, then it is incumbent upon you to either acknowledge my argumentation in my last reply as being valid, or if not valid, submit any scriptural evidence which nullifies my claim. Failing to do so and simply moving on to another subject only weakens your claim."
Those type people your referring to in Romans 8 who do not walk according to the Spirit are not born of God believers, for proof simply keep reading that chapter.
Example, those who are in the flesh cannot please God = unbelievers,they are of the flesh and not spirit, flesh is flesh and spirit is spirit, review John 3.
5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
This very chapter in Romans proves the Apostle John correct that those who are born of God do not sin in their born of God spirits, note v10, while their body is dead because of sin.
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
And I am placing you on ignore, since all you want is to get personal with me, I can see that in your behavior.
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Additionally as Jesus said you shall be perfect, well that is what you become, that is to where you have come, spiritually perfect, for all believers, the BODY IS DEAD BECAUSE OF SIN, but the Spirit is LIFE because of righteousness...Romans 8:10...
Don't you love how God has perfected His saints according to His will?
I suppose some don't like this at all, that there is no condemnation for those in Christ...they prefer condemnation and condemning other believers perhaps..
Hebrews 12
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
God will judge His people, but it will not be a judgement of condemnation to hell.
Jesus already died and rose again, and so therefore we live, are alive to God in the
Spirit because of Him.
Don't you love how God has perfected His saints according to His will?
I suppose some don't like this at all, that there is no condemnation for those in Christ...they prefer condemnation and condemning other believers perhaps..
Hebrews 12
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
God will judge His people, but it will not be a judgement of condemnation to hell.
Jesus already died and rose again, and so therefore we live, are alive to God in the
Spirit because of Him.
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Oldmantook
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Really? All I asked you to do is to simply respond to my specific counter-points which you were remiss in doing and you call that bullying? Your claims are indeed weakened since doctrine must be formed by both scriptures which support your belief as well as reconciling those scriptures which appear to contradict your belief. You have neglected to do this so in my opinion your lack of response makes for an unproductive discussion.
The proof lies in the fact that v.13 of Rom 8 is addressed to those whom Paul refers to in the verse right before it in v.12 - the brethren living in Rome. Brethren only refers to believers; not unbelievers as you claim. If believers live according to the flesh, they will die. But if they live according to the Spirit, they will live. Paul's warning refers to spiritual death; not physical death because everyone dies physically irrespective of the kind of life they live. If a brother or sister in Christ lives a lifestyle of sin, he/she will not see eternal life but instead reaps spiritual death.
That is certainly your prerogative.
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Si_monfaith
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Your reply to #2: The elect are not free (1Corinthians 15:10). So no responsibility. Since many have not yet been given the understanding that they are set free from the law as stated in Romans 7:4, 6, they think they are accountable.
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Is a person who believes for a while, then no longer believes, a believer.
13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13
- who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.
Is one of His sheep who become lost, still saved?
4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7
Key Verse: likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents
His sheep who become lost, have become a sinner in need of repentance, just like an unbeliever.
Lost = Sinner who is need of repentance; dead to God, in need of salvation, reconciliation to God.
Found = Someone is is reconciled to God; saved.
- Lost Sheep:
- Lost Coin:
Luke 15:10
- Prodigal Son
This foundational truth can not be changed by quoting other scriptures.
JLB
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you are deriving it, like an equation. it is not an either/or.
all men are responsible for their actions, because it is what they desire.
all men are responsible for their actions, because it is what they desire.
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Si_monfaith
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what about it ? there is no escaping God's law, unless of course you do not have a heart. (Rom2:15)
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kw5kw
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You stopped a bit early
John III:16-19
[Jhn 3:16-19 KJV] 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
emphasis is mine.
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