I'm a pediatrician. How transgender ideology has infiltrated my field and produced wide scale....

tall73 said:

The pediatrician noted puberty blockers at age 11 or 12, as 16 would often be too late to block. The child cannot really understand all the implications at that time.

And there are limits to what a parent should be able to decide when it comes to lifelong implications.

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Yes there are limits to what a parent should be able to decide, but you are again ignoring that there are medical professionals involved. Puberty blockers can also be removed at any time, which would return the child to cycle through puberty.

Additionally, this study notes that of the participants, none had regrets and had positive outcomes otherwise. A small study, yes, but data nonetheless.

Under point 4, her bias comes out on this matter, as she uses the term "impersonate", but even she notes that there is no study showing patients stopping treatment, though she makes the bizarre claim that the treatment makes children transgender, when they have to have been consistently diagnosed to even get the treatment.

Cute Tink said:

And then she goes on to make an unsubstantiated link between depression and dysphoria, but whatever.

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And it is that element the paper was addressing, not later suicide rates which is yet to be observed per this paper in such a supportive environment later in life.

tall73 said:

She affirmed the role of bullying in the interview, is that what you are referring to? Or was there some further statistical discussion, I didn't see it in regards to this in scanning the interview.

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As quoted earlier:

If one divides the cohort into two groups, 1973 to 1988 and 1989 to 2003, one observes that for the latter group (1989 – 2003), differences in mortality, suicide attempts and crime disappear.

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Not just bullying either, but also "abuse, rape and hate crimes". Let's not minimize the social response.

tall73 said:

And it is that element the paper was addressing, not later suicide rates which is yet to be observed per this paper in such a supportive environment later in life.

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Again, it deals with the depression that this pediatrician linked to the subject herself. If depression is completely unrelated to the suicides she says she is concerned about, then why bring it up as the solution to the suicide rate?

Cute Tink said:

Which is why I pulled it, because the point is about children and adolescents.



After surgery, not after just transition. The Swedish study is about following after surgery, specifically "sex reassignment surgery", which children and adolescents do not receive.

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Yes, that is my point. We still need data to see what happens in supportive families, in a relatively more supportive environment in regards to later suicide rates. The study itself acknowledges this and perhaps hints at them collecting said data over itme.

tall73 said:

Yes, she did. My point is that the study you presented looks at depression but not suicide rates, etc. Both the pediatrician and the study reference the alleged possibility that it is depression and other factors that could also be the root of dysphoria,

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Where did the study suggest that depression is the root of dysphoria?

and the paper notes that this may not be the case as they did not have the same depression, etc. when socially transitioned in a supportive situation.

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Yes. The supportive situation alleviated the supposedly problematic depression. If the support alleviates the depression, then how can it be the root of the dysphoria when the dysphoria still exists?

However, the pediatrician references later suicide, and this study simply doesn't look at that aspect as it is pre-physical transition socially transitioned children.

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The pediatrician ties the solution to the suicide issue to the treatment of depression.

So this study indicates further research is necessary going forward (perhaps with the same sample) as to outcomes regarding suicide, depression, etc. in later life when it usually manifests.

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Ongoing research is always beneficial. This study may be of interest to you (linked before, but it addresses this point too).

Cute Tink said:

This study we are currently quoting from notes as follows, related to anxiety, depression and suicidality:



Additionally, in response to your quote, noting again, it's not inherent to being transgender, but to society's response thereto:



My position is further supported by the authors of the study, who I'd guess took their own warnings into consideration and still came to the conclusion that I pointed out as my reason for sharing the study itself.

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It is rather hard for them to quantify "daily micro-aggressions" so I can understand their belief in this regard, but again, society will not change overnight, and parts of it will likely never change.

And even if everyone eventually changed in this regard, there are still other depressing elements, such as the need for hormonal therapy, the need for surgery, being sterile, the more limited pool of life partners this may result in as those wanting children may not be interested, and finally, the realization that despite all that we can do to help transition, in the end it is not a full transition. We can only approximate the anatomy of the new gender.

Cute Tink said:

As quoted earlier:



Not just bullying either, but also "abuse, rape and hate crimes". Let's not minimize the social response.

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I was trying to assess which response you were citing, not minimizing. You earlier were asking people not to personally attack. You may refrain from the same.

Cute Tink said:

Again, it deals with the depression that this pediatrician linked to the subject herself. If depression is completely unrelated to the suicides she says she is concerned about, then why bring it up as the solution to the suicide rate?

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Because the whole theory of the pediatrician is that it may resolve later without increased suicide rates.

Apart from accepting her notion that the depression leads to it, which I am not sure is warranted, there are still elements which could lead to depression later which are not just about abuse, etc.

the paper noted the increasing body dysphoria during later adolescence as just one example.

I would add possible resentment over inability to have children and the possible reduction in the number of potential partners as a result. Also the incomplete nature of any transition.

Cute Tink said:

Where did the study suggest that depression is the root of dysphoria?

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It did not.

It stated that others suggested it, the pediatrician being an example that we are familiar with. The findings of the study would tend to mitigate against the notion.

Cute Tink said:

The pediatrician ties the solution to the suicide issue to the treatment of depression.

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More properly the pediatrician suggests

a. treatment of depression
b. time to pass to see if it lasts
c. Waiting until this child can make their own decision.

Now whether one agrees with the premise of the pediatrician that the depression is the cause, which there is some reason to doubt, I think the overall suggestion of treatment of depression in general when present is a good idea, and so is waiting for the child to make their own decision.

Cute Tink said:

Ongoing research is always beneficial. This study may be of interest to you (linked before, but it addresses this point too).

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Well increased information is always beneficial. Some research is unethical, and we can talk about that some other time. But yes, in this case it will be interesting to see 20 and 30 years in the future if that holds true, as the final follow-up in this one was mean age 20, and not too long after surgery.

Using part of the colon is not uncommon for vaginal reconstruction, it shouldn't be a surprise that it would be used for construction.

Michie said:

Did anyone watch 'I am Jazz' lastnight? She is not looking to get bottom surgery and she started taking hormones so early that she does not even have the sufficient material down there to do so. Cute Tink: Dr. McGinn was one of the doctors she consulted. Anyway, there was one doctor that actually suggested using part of her colon. I noticed by the previews that another doctor will be giving an opinion that did not look he exactly agreed with the other two doctors. It is interesting to see the variety of opinions in this field.

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Using the colon is so symbolic of this whole thing.

I don't know if this is a "Swedish Study," but this is the study showing the 41% that my post referred to:

https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/AFSP-Williams-Suicide-Report-Final.pdf

Key findings of this report include the following: • Suicide attempts among trans men (46%) and trans women (42%) were slightly higher than the full sample (41%). Cross-dressers assigned male at birth have the lowest reported prevalence of suicide attempts among gender identity groups (21%). • Analysis of other demographic variables found prevalence of suicide attempts was highest among those who are younger (18 to 24: 45%), multiracial (54%) and American Indian or Alaska Native (56%), have lower levels of educational attainment (high school or less: 48-49%), and have lower annual household income (less than $10,000: 54%). • Prevalence of suicide attempts is elevated among those who disclose to everyone that they are transgender or gender-non-conforming (50%) and among those that report others can tell always (42%) or most of the time (45%) that they are transgender or gender non-conforming even if they don’t tell them. • Respondents who are HIV-positive (51%) and respondents with disabilities (55-65%) also have elevated prevalence of suicide attempts. In particular, 65 percent of those with a mental health condition that substantially affects a major life activity reported attempting suicide.

Cute Tink said:

Yes there are limits to what a parent should be able to decide, but you are again ignoring that there are medical professionals involved. Puberty blockers can also be removed at any time, which would return the child to cycle through puberty.

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There is a problem with puberty blockers. Let's follow the reasoning.
A. Without puberty blockers, between 75-95% of children who identify with the gender opposite their sex come to accept their sex after puberty and are happy as adults, with no greater risk of suicide than the typical adult (4.9%) (I am in this category. I am a woman who simply has an inner male, and that's fine. I'm happy with myself, even though I am not the norm. God loves me just the way I am.)
B. Given puberty blockers, children will almost always opt for HRT as soon as they are given the choice, and as adults have a high probability of depression, and a 41% risk of suicide.
C. Thus, giving puberty blockers ups the risk of suicide from 4.9% to 41% as adults, not to mention makes life more unhappy for most.
D. It is therefore child abuse.