If Calvinism is correct

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Anyways, Calvinism does not make sense because we see lots of verses on Free Will in the Bible.

Free Will in the Bible:

#1. Joshua 24:15 KJV -
"Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve"

#2. Matthew 11:28 KJV -
"Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

#3. John 7:17 KJV -
"If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God."

#4. John 7:37 KJV -
"If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink."

#5. Acts of the Apostles 2:38 KJV -
"Repent, and let everyone of you be baptized"

#6. Acts of the Apostles 3:19 KJV -
"Repent therefore and be converted"

#7. Acts of the Apostles 16:31 KJV -
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved"

#8. Acts of the Apostles 17:30 KJV -
"but now commands all men everywhere to repent"

#9. Revelation 22:17 KJV -
"Whoever wills, let him take the water of life freely."

#10. Genesis 4:7 KJV -
"If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him."

If a person did not choose or reject God at any point, then the wicked could not be blamed for their actions at a Judgment because they had no choice in the matter and God just made them to be evil. But this would be impossible because there is no darkness in the Lord; And God is good.


...
 
Upvote 0

Hank77

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jun 26, 2015
26,368
15,457
✟1,099,338.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
If a person did not choose or reject God at any point, then the wicked could not be blamed for their actions at a Judgment because they had no choice in the matter and God just made them to be evil. But this would be impossible because there is no darkness in the Lord; And God is good.
All men are sons of Adam, born unrightness, not justified by the blood of the Lamb.
God doesn't make them be evil (unrighteous, unholy). Everyone sins against God. Therefore, there is no reason to think that they deserve to be saved. Only God can save. So if God chooses not to save everyone from their sin, they are not condemned for no reason, they are getting what they deserve.

Now I don't hold to this doctrine because of all the scriptures that say all men are called, just as you do.
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
All men are sons of Adam, born unrightness, not justified by the blood of the Lamb.

So you believe babies are unsaved if they die?

Now it is true, even babies are effected by the sin of Adam, but Jesus reverses the curse.
If a baby dies, they are saved by Christ's sacrifice.
But when the baby grows up, they fall into sin by their own free will choice and sin causes them spiritual death; Thereby creating a separation between them and God (Whereby they have to repent and become born again spiritually by Jesus Christ).

You said:
God doesn't make them be evil (unrighteous, unholy). Everyone sins against God. Therefore, there is no reason to think that they deserve to be saved. Only God can save. So if God chooses not to save everyone from their sin, they are not condemned for no reason, they are getting what they deserve.

I don't think so. If God knows that some will repent and turn from their wicked ways, then it would be unfair of God to condemn them without giving them another chance or shot.to redeem themselves through the Son of God (the Savior) that God the Father intended to provide for the entire whole world.
For if you what you suggest is true, then God would not be good, loving, and merciful. For the God of the Bible is not One who condemned all of mankind without caring about whether they would repent or not.

You said:
Now I don't hold to this doctrine because of all the scriptures that say all men are called, just as you do.

I am glad you do not hold to this doctrine. For it seeks to harm the good character of our God who desires all men to be saved.


...
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Please read the last line of my post again.

And please read all of what I had written to you in my post.
I essentially was saying in my last sentence that I know you do not agree with Calvinism, but in the rest of my post, I was saying I disagree with your other assertions or statements.


...
 
Upvote 0

Hank77

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jun 26, 2015
26,368
15,457
✟1,099,338.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
And please read all of what I had written to you in my post.
I essentially was saying in my last sentence that I know you do not agree with Calvinism, but in the rest of my post, I was saying I disagree with your other assertions or statements....
You started out with a question that didn't directly address anything I said. Let's set aside children birth thru 19 right now.

Are any of these statements false?
All men are sons of Adam, born unrightness, not justified by the blood of the Lamb.

God doesn't make them be evil (unrighteous, unholy).

Everyone sins against God.

Therefore, there is no reason to think that they deserve to be saved.

Only God can save.

So if God chooses not to save everyone from their sin, they are not condemned for no reason, they are getting what they deserve.
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
You started out with a question that didn't directly address anything I said. Let's set aside children birth thru 19 right now.

But your avoidance of answering the question is what I have a problem with in your first statement.

You said:
Are any of these statements false?

Hank77 said:
All men are sons of Adam, born unrightness, not justified by the blood of the Lamb.

This statement is not exactly true because babies are saved by Christ's sacrifice despite them being born into Adam's sin.

Hank77 said:
Therefore, there is no reason to think that they deserve to be saved.
So if God chooses not to save everyone from their sin, they are not condemned for no reason, they are getting what they deserve.

As I said to you before, I don't think so. If God knows that some will repent and turn from their wicked ways, then it would be unfair of God to condemn them without giving them another chance or shot.to redeem themselves through the Son of God (the Savior) that God the Father intended to provide for the entire whole world.
For if you what you suggest is true, then God would not be good, loving, and merciful. For the God of the Bible is not One who condemned all of mankind without caring about whether they would repent or not.



...
 
Upvote 0

Paidiske

Clara bonam audax
Supporter
Apr 25, 2016
34,130
19,010
43
Albury, Australia
Visit site
✟1,473,719.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Mod hat.jpg

MOD HAT ON
This thread has been moved to General Theology.
Please note and abide by the Statement of Purpose of this forum.

MOD HAT OFF
 
Upvote 0

RisenInJesus

Well-Known Member
Apr 8, 2016
608
273
USA
✟34,201.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
(Scratching head) ..I don't even know what a Calvinist is..what they believe...e.t.c...Not because I'm a dunce. I've just never heard of these people.Ever.Guess I'd better Google it..
Praise God! It is a blessing that you have not heard of Calvinism because that probably means you still read the scriptures in the simple straightforward way God intended, as a child coming to God for His wisdom and truth. But the sad fact is that this theology is permeating many churches, denominations and bringing disunity and delusion where ever it goes.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

sdowney717

Newbie
Apr 20, 2013
8,712
2,021
✟102,588.00
Faith
Christian
How does someone who does not agree with the doctrine of election by grace alone explain this verse?

Revelation 17:8
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

The names of Christ's believers who have eternal life are written in the Lamb's book of Life at the foundation of the earth.
The non believers follow the devil.
 
Upvote 0

RisenInJesus

Well-Known Member
Apr 8, 2016
608
273
USA
✟34,201.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
if Calvinism is correct in its assertion that God predestined some for salvation and many others for wrath, would that affect your view or relationship with God in any way?

So in other words, those of you who read this as believers, if you knew even in a brief moment of time that God granted you salvation (Predestination) but has eternally prevented others from being so, would that affect your view or relationship with him in any way?

How would you react to such a revelation? Or would it?
Well, if Calvinism is true then it certainly is contrary to the revelation of the scriptures to the character of God which portrays Him as the Essence and Source of love, justice, mercy, compassion, forgiveness, and truth.
 
Upvote 0

RisenInJesus

Well-Known Member
Apr 8, 2016
608
273
USA
✟34,201.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
How does someone who does not agree with the doctrine of election by grace alone explain this verse?

Revelation 17:8
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

The names of Christ's believers who have eternal life are written in the Lamb's book of Life at the foundation of the earth.
The non believers follow the devil.
I think the excerpt below is a pretty good answer...

"Answer: Several verses speak of God blotting or not blotting names out of the book of life: “I will not blot out his name out of the book of life” (Rv 3:5); “God shall take away his part out of the book of life” (Rv 22:19); “...if thou wilt forgive their sin—; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.... Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book” (Ex 32:32,33).


These references to blotting out of the book of life allow only two possibilities: 1) everyone’s name is written in the book of life from eternity past, indicating God’s desire for all to be saved, until they have irrevocably rejected Christ, when their name is blotted out; or 2) when a person gets saved, his name is placed in the book of life for the first time, and when He later turns against Christ, his name is blotted out. Neither of these fits Calvinism. The first denies that God only intends to save a select elect, and the second denies the eternal security of the redeemed.


References to those “whose names are in the book of life” (Phil:4:3; Rv 21:27) and those “whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world” (Rv 13:8; 17:8; 20:15)offer no clue as to how or why names are written or are not written there. They only tell us that at the end of history, some names will be found, and some names will not be found written therein. But the fact that names can be and in fact are blotted out of the book of life is clear.


Of the two alternatives above, since the second one, which allows for some of the redeemed to lose their salvation, contradicts Christ’s clear promise (“shall not come into condemnation, but has passed from death unto life” - Jn:5:24), we must opt for the first. Comparing all of the verses, we can only conclude that, in keeping with God’s desire that all be saved, from eternity past every person’s name is written in the book of life of the Lamb, slain from before the foundation of the world. Whose names are blotted out? The names of those who refuse to yield to the wooing of the Holy Spirit. For this sin, there is no forgiveness (Mk 3:28; Lk 12:10).


Thus there is nothing in what Scripture says about the “book of life” to give any comfort to Calvinists, but only discomfort."


Question: Why does Revelation 17:8 (and maybe Revelation 13:8, depending on the translation used) refer to those “whose names were not written in the book of life from the creation of the world...”?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

RisenInJesus

Well-Known Member
Apr 8, 2016
608
273
USA
✟34,201.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
This is incorrect. You have presuppositions, which you don't even realize, and they will always cause you to arrive at the same conclusion, no matter the evidence. Start without the presuppositions, and you might at least understand what Calvinists believe.
What is the presupposition? Does or does not Calvinism teach that God regenerates some "the elect" allowing them to believe the gospel and lets the rest of humanity go on their way to damnation? Does not Calvinism state that it is not God's will to save all mankind?
 
Upvote 0

jimmyjimmy

Pardoned Rebel
Supporter
Jan 2, 2015
11,556
5,728
USA
✟234,973.00
Country
United States
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
What is the presupposition? Does or does not Calvinism teach that God regenerates some "the elect" allowing them to believe the gospel and lets the rest of humanity go on their way to damnation? Does not Calvinism state that it is not God's will to save all mankind?

Take one thing at a time, or else this would be impossible. Your, "I know" statements are the presuppositions.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

sdowney717

Newbie
Apr 20, 2013
8,712
2,021
✟102,588.00
Faith
Christian
I think the excerpt below is a pretty good answer...

"Answer: Several verses speak of God blotting or not blotting names out of the book of life: “I will not blot out his name out of the book of life” (Rv 3:5); “God shall take away his part out of the book of life” (Rv 22:19); “...if thou wilt forgive their sin—; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.... Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book” (Ex 32:32,33).


These references to blotting out of the book of life allow only two possibilities: 1) everyone’s name is written in the book of life from eternity past, indicating God’s desire for all to be saved, until they have irrevocably rejected Christ, when their name is blotted out; or 2) when a person gets saved, his name is placed in the book of life for the first time, and when He later turns against Christ, his name is blotted out. Neither of these fits Calvinism. The first denies that God only intends to save a select elect, and the second denies the eternal security of the redeemed.


References to those “whose names are in the book of life” (Phil:4:3; Rv 21:27) and those “whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world” (Rv 13:8; 17:8; 20:15)offer no clue as to how or why names are written or are not written there. They only tell us that at the end of history, some names will be found, and some names will not be found written therein. But the fact that names can be and in fact are blotted out of the book of life is clear.


Of the two alternatives above, since the second one, which allows for some of the redeemed to lose their salvation, contradicts Christ’s clear promise (“shall not come into condemnation, but has passed from death unto life” - Jn:5:24), we must opt for the first. Comparing all of the verses, we can only conclude that, in keeping with God’s desire that all be saved, from eternity past every person’s name is written in the book of life of the Lamb, slain from before the foundation of the world. Whose names are blotted out? The names of those who refuse to yield to the wooing of the Holy Spirit. For this sin, there is no forgiveness (Mk 3:28; Lk 12:10).


Thus there is nothing in what Scripture says about the “book of life” to give any comfort to Calvinists, but only discomfort."


Question: Why does Revelation 17:8 (and maybe Revelation 13:8, depending on the translation used) refer to those “whose names were not written in the book of life from the creation of the world...”?
This commentary here makes no sense.

References to those “whose names are in the book of life” (Phil:4:3; Rv 21:27) and those “whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world” (Rv 13:8; 17:8; 20:15)offer no clue as to how or why names are written or are not written there. They only tell us that at the end of history, some names will be found, and some names will not be found written therein. But the fact that names can be and in fact are blotted out of the book of life is clear.

The verse though clearly states the names were written in the book of life at the foundation of the world, not at the end of history...

Revelation 17:8
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.


Sorry but this commentary does not agree with what scripture says.

 
Upvote 0

sdowney717

Newbie
Apr 20, 2013
8,712
2,021
✟102,588.00
Faith
Christian
Written to the saints in the church at Ephesus.
Ephesians 1New King James Version (NKJV)
Greeting
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God,

To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,

4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

sdowney717

Newbie
Apr 20, 2013
8,712
2,021
✟102,588.00
Faith
Christian
Written to the Roman Christians

Paul taught believers are those God foreknew predestined called justified glorified, in an unbroken chain. Sorry but God does not call all men to be saved.

Romans 8
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.

29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
 
Upvote 0