LDS Did the Mormon Jesus (aka Jehovah) lie?

Peter1000 · Jul 12, 2017

mmksparbud said:
Why would I talk to a Catholic priest??!! I am not Catholic and I do not see any evidence in the bible for a priesthood-----neither did Luther and he was a priest before leaving the Catholic church. Neither did any other protestant leader. There is not one single verse where there were any priests ordained in the NT----none!!

Then why does Catholic and Orthodox churches still have 'priests' even today, 2100 years since Christ?

Your church does not have priests, so you try to maintain that there were no priests at the time of Christ. But the Catholics and Orthodox have had priests since the time of Christ. So you have to ask them what you are asking me, so you get an answer that is not from a Mormon crazy guy.

I can tell you at the time of the restoration of the church in 1820, JS was told that the office of priest should exist in the offices of the priesthood. So that is why we have priests, not because the bible says so or not, but because Jesus told us to have the office of priest.

BigDaddy4 · Jul 12, 2017

Peter1000 said:
Since there were none other women except this Phoebe, my conclusion is still in tact. Since no other women were ordained to be a royal priest in the royal priesthood in 1800 years.

Besides my KJV says Phoebe was a 'servant' in the church. Since she seems to be the only woman for 1800 years to be ordained to be a royal priest, I suggest she was not ordained a priest in the royal priesthood, but was a servant, or loyal dilligent lay laborer for Christ in the church in Cenchreae. I would have commended her also.

But since no other woman followed her in being a royal priest, I believe she was not ordained, but a lay worker for Christ. She must have been wonderful to be mentioned in the bible.

So you ignore the evidence? Okaaaay....

mmksparbud · Jul 12, 2017

Peter1000 said:
Then why does Catholic and Orthodox churches still have 'priests' even today, 2100 years since Christ?

Your church does not have priests, so you try to maintain that there were no priests at the time of Christ. But the Catholics and Orthodox have had priests since the time of Christ. So you have to ask them what you are asking me, so you get an answer that is not from a Mormon crazy guy.

I can tell you at the time of the restoration of the church in 1820, JS was told that the office of priest should exist in the offices of the priesthood. So that is why we have priests, not because the bible says so or not, but because Jesus told us to have the office of priest.

Luther and the rest didn't think there was any reason for priests either---Jesus did not appoint or ordain any priests--not one word in the bible for it. This is what happens when people go by tradition instead of plain bible truth. Peter was not a priest. Never was. Those churches have priests for the same mistaken believe you do.
Mat 23:7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
Mat 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
Mat 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
Mat 23:10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
Mat 23:11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
Mat 23:12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

Rescued One · Jul 12, 2017

Women did not need hands laid on their heads to do as God directed them.

Romans 16:1-2 (KJV)
1 I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:

2 That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.

The word diakonos is found in ( Romans 16:1 ) (Authorized Version "servant") associated with a female name, and this has led to the conclusion that there existed in the apostolic age, as there undoubtedly did a little later, an order of women bearing that title, and exercising in relation to their own sex functions which were analogous to those of the deacons. On this hypothesis it has been inferred that the women mentioned in ( Romans 16:6 Romans 16:12 ) belonged to such an order. The rules given as to the conduct of women in ( 1 Timothy 3:11 ;Titus 2:3 ) have in like manner been referred to them, and they have been identified even with the "widows" of ( 1 Timothy 5:3-10 ).
Deaconess Definition and Meaning - Bible Dictionary

Titus 2:3-5 - The aged women likewise, that [they be] in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;

1 Timothy 3:8 - Likewise [must] the deacons [be] grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;

Peter1000 · Jul 13, 2017

Phoebe Ann said:
Women did not need hands laid on their heads to do as God directed them.

I agree with you 100%. Women did not need to have hands laid on their heads to do as God directed them. God did not direct them to do the work of the priesthood, therefore they would not have had hands laid on their heads as priests would need.

The orders that you are looking for came much later in Christian history, just like monks. I think monks show up around 200-250ad, I could be wrong. Women orders would have shown up later. But these orders were not priesthood orders, they were personal holy orders unassociated with the administration of the church. So if there is some kind of implication that they were ordained women priests. Forget it. They did not exist.

Peter1000 · Jul 13, 2017

mmksparbud said:
Luther and the rest didn't think there was any reason for priests either---Jesus did not appoint or ordain any priests--not one word in the bible for it. This is what happens when people go by tradition instead of plain bible truth. Peter was not a priest. Never was. Those churches have priests for the same mistaken believe you do.
Mat 23:7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
Mat 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
Mat 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
Mat 23:10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
Mat 23:11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
Mat 23:12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

Jesus was the Head of the church. Jesus ordained only apostles and gave them the keys of the KOH.
The apostles went into the world and first they ordained elders in every city. As the congregations grew, the apostles picked from these elders, and 1 was chosen and only apostels could ordain him bishop.
The bishop, when he needed assistants, ordained priests, and deacons. The elders were his councilors and helped him with the administration of the local church also.

You are putting all of your money on Luther. That is your mistake. The history of the Christian church is solid about priests from the beginning. If we are a holy nation and a unigue people it is because all worthy males can be royal priests to assist God in the administration of His church. That was a unique aspect of the early church. It was only later, around 200ad that the priesthood holders coalesced into a clergy class and then into finally into a professional clergy class, and no more included the entire male population.

By Luther's time the priests and the priesthood was so corrupted, it was only recongnizable by name. The keys of the priesthood given to Peter and the apostles was long gone. No revelation was being recieved, and it was time for a reformation.

Unfortunately, Luther and the reformers could not agree on how the church was going to act after the reformation, and so there were 3-4 major reform churches that brought massive confusion to the people, who wanted to be in the reformed church, not 4 churches that were Catholic look-alikes except for a couple of doctrinal changes, one of them, we don't need priests any longer.

If preists didn't exist in the primitive church, then why did Luther say we don't need priests any longer. He was one time a priest himself. Too much evidence for priests in the time of apostles.

mmksparbud · Jul 13, 2017

Peter1000 said:
Jesus was the Head of the church. Jesus ordained only apostles and gave them the keys of the KOH.
The apostles went into the world and first they ordained elders in every city. As the congregations grew, the apostles picked from these elders, and 1 was chosen and only apostels could ordain him bishop.
The bishop, when he needed assistants, ordained priests, and deacons. The elders were his councilors and helped him with the administration of the local church also.

You are putting all of your money on Luther. That is your mistake. The history of the Christian church is solid about priests from the beginning. If we are a holy nation and a unigue people it is because all worthy males can be royal priests to assist God in the administration of His church. That was a unique aspect of the early church. It was only later, around 200ad that the priesthood holders coalesced into a clergy class and then into finally into a professional clergy class, and no more included the entire male population.

By Luther's time the priests and the priesthood was so corrupted, it was only recongnizable by name. The keys of the priesthood given to Peter and the apostles was long gone. No revelation was being recieved, and it was time for a reformation.

Unfortunately, Luther and the reformers could not agree on how the church was going to act after the reformation, and so there were 3-4 major reform churches that brought massive confusion to the people, who wanted to be in the reformed church, not 4 churches that were Catholic look-alikes except for a couple of doctrinal changes, one of them, we don't need priests any longer.

If preists didn't exist in the primitive church, then why did Luther say we don't need priests any longer. He was one time a priest himself. Too much evidence for priests in the time of apostles.

I do not put my money on any man----The bible makes no mention of them, there is no need o them---
1Ti_2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Heb_8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Heb_9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb_12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Rescued One · Jul 13, 2017

The Mormon church elevates men. I'm starting a new thread about something every non-Mormon should know before talking to the Mormon missionaries.

Peter1000 · Jul 14, 2017

BigDaddy4 said:
So you ignore the evidence? Okaaaay....

I ignore 1 woman that is know as a 'servant' of the church. Yes, I totally ignore that 1 woman who was not an ordained priest in the early church.

If there were thousands of ordained women priests then that little piece of information may be something, but zero, so I can ignore it and my point still stands.

Peter1000 · Jul 14, 2017

Phoebe Ann said:
The Mormon church elevates men. I'm starting a new thread about something every non-Mormon should know before talking to the Mormon missionaries.

Go ahead, but it is you that is elevating men in the Mormon church.

In our church, and throughout the history of the Christian church, men have held the priesthood and administered the church of God.

The role of the woman was to be the nurturing mother in the home and be diligent in doing what our God wants her to do in the church.

It is not a downgrade for the woman. It is not an elevetion for the man, it is just our natural roles. Motherhood and nurturing and taking care of the home and working for the KOG. The man is the priesthood holder to administer the church of God. He is also the main provider for the home. The two raise their children in an atmosphere of love and cooperation, with all eyes on God. It is healthy and fulfilling. Women do have callings in the church to help women better manage their role, so they do have administration duties in the church too.

Peter1000 · Jul 14, 2017

mmksparbud said:
I do not put my money on any man----The bible makes no mention of them, there is no need o them---
1Ti_2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Heb_8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Heb_9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb_12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Apparently you forget this scripture:
1 Peter 2:9New International Reader's Version (NIRV)
9 But God chose you to be his people. You are royal priests. You are a holy nation. You are God’s special treasure. You are all these things so that you can give him praise. God brought you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

Well, there you have it. 'You are royal 'priests'.

While we are on what the bible has and has not, lets talk about the most proclaimed office in the bible, 'the Apostles'.

You are so willing to say that because the bible does not mention the office of 'priest' in the text (which you are wrong anyway), therefore our church does not have priests.
You must be as willing to acknowledge that the bible does mention the office of 'Apostle' in the text, and therefore your church must have 'Apostles'.

Is that fair???

But I am sure because your church does not have 'apostles' you will argue vehemnently that your church does not need apostles, even though the bible is plain that they were necessary and the foundation of the early church.

Peter1000 · Jul 14, 2017

mmksparbud said:
Luther and the rest didn't think there was any reason for priests either---Jesus did not appoint or ordain any priests--not one word in the bible for it. This is what happens when people go by tradition instead of plain bible truth. Peter was not a priest. Never was. Those churches have priests for the same mistaken believe you do.
Mat 23:7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
Mat 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
Mat 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
Mat 23:10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
Mat 23:11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
Mat 23:12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

When you say Luther and the rest, who is the rest. Because the rest of Christianity, the Catholics and the Orthodox churches all have priests since the time of the apostles. So you are on the wrong side of the numbers game. Most Christians believe in priests, some do not.

Since your church does not have priests, you argue that priests are not necessary. I can understand your position perfectly. Does you church have apostles and prophets and bishops and elders and deacons??

mmksparbud · Jul 14, 2017

Peter1000 said:
Apparently you forget this scripture:
1 Peter 2:9New International Reader's Version (NIRV)
9 But God chose you to be his people. You are royal priests. You are a holy nation. You are God’s special treasure. You are all these things so that you can give him praise. God brought you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

Well, there you have it. 'You are royal 'priests'.

While we are on what the bible has and has not, lets talk about the most proclaimed office in the bible, 'the Apostles'.

You are so willing to say that because the bible does not mention the office of 'priest' in the text (which you are wrong anyway), therefore our church does not have priests.
You must be as willing to acknowledge that the bible does mention the office of 'Apostle' in the text, and therefore your church must have 'Apostles'.

Is that fair???

But I am sure because your church does not have 'apostles' you will argue vehemnently that your church does not need apostles, even though the bible is plain that they were necessary and the foundation of the early church.

There you go again--taking one word out of the whole thing and making that your emphasis----again ---_"You are a holy nation"-- you completey ignore that as you did in the other verses.

mmksparbud · Jul 14, 2017

Peter1000 said:
When you say Luther and the rest, who is the rest. Because the rest of Christianity, the Catholics and the Orthodox churches all have priests since the time of the apostles. So you are on the wrong side of the numbers game. Most Christians believe in priests, some do not.

Since your church does not have priests, you argue that priests are not necessary. I can understand your position perfectly. Does you church have apostles and prophets and bishops and elders and deacons??

None of the Protestant churches believed in priests. Calvin, Wesley and so forth. I do not hold to "numbers" as my reason for believing or not believing in something.--The bible is what I base my faith on. I don't think there are any bishops in the church, elders and deacons and of course the ministers.

fatboys · Jul 21, 2017

mmksparbud said:
None of the Protestant churches believed in priests. Calvin, Wesley and so forth. I do not hold to "numbers" as my reason for believing or not believing in something.--The bible is what I base my faith on. I don't think there are any bishops in the church, elders and deacons and of course the ministers.

That's because they didn't hold the priesthood.

mmksparbud · Jul 21, 2017

fatboys said:
That's because they didn't hold the priesthood.

There is no priesthood.

fatboys · Jul 21, 2017

mmksparbud said:
There is no priesthood.

You don't have the priesthood and so it doesn't cost for you. I hold the priesthood and so therefore it exists

mmksparbud · Jul 21, 2017

fatboys said:
You don't have the priesthood and so it doesn't cost for you. I hold the priesthood and so therefore it exists

It exists in your mind only, not biblically nor in the eyes of God.

withwonderingawe · Jul 22, 2017

Phoebe Ann said:
From lds.org:
Jehovah
The covenant or proper name of the God of Israel. It denotes the “Unchangeable One,” “the eternal I AM” (Ex. 6:3; Ps. 83:18; Isa. 12:2; 26:4). The original pronunciation of this name has possibly been lost, as the Jews, in reading, never mentioned it but substituted one of the other names of God, usually Adonai. Probably it was pronounced Jahveh, or Yahveh. In the KJV, the Jewish custom has been followed, and the name is generally denoted by Lord or God, printed in small capitals.

Jehovah is the premortal Jesus Christ and came to earth being born of Mary (see Mosiah 3:8; 15:1; 3 Ne. 15:1–5; D&C 110:1–10). Although Ex. 6:3 states that the God of Israel was not known by the name Jehovah before Moses’ time, latter-day revelation tells us otherwise; see JST Ex. 6:3 (Ex. 6:3 note c); Abr. 1:16; 2:8; see also Gen. 22:14.
Jehovah

Did Israel worship the Son?

If Jehovah is Jesus as Mormons claim, did he lie wheh he said there is no other God?

Exodus 20
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Isaiah 44
8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

There is no other god like our Father. In truly worshipping him, we will strive to be worthy of all that we are and can become.
S. Michael Wilcox
“No Other Gods before Me” - Ensign Jan. 1994 - ensign

God is the Supreme Being in the universe.

1.
God the Father is greater than all (see Ephesians 4:6; John 10:29).

2.
As the Supreme Being, God the Father should be the object of our love and worship (see D&C 18:40; 20:29; Joshua 22:5; Mark 12:30; D&C 4:2;Luke 4:8).

Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual Chapter 3: God the Eternal Father

God is the Supreme Being in whom we believe and whom we worship. He is all-powerful and all-knowing, and He is full of love, mercy, charity, and compassion. He is the Author of the plan for our happiness.
God Is Our Father

God the Father is the Supreme Being in whom we believe and whom we worship. He is the ultimate Creator, Ruler, and Preserver of all things. He is perfect, has all power, and knows all things. He “has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s” (D&C 130:22).
True to the Faith God the Father

The supreme Governor of the universe and the Father of mankind. We learn from the revelations that have been given that there are three separate persons in the Godhead: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. From latter-day revelation we learn that the Father and the Son have tangible bodies of flesh and bone and that the Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit without flesh and bone (D&C 130:22–23).
When one speaks of God, it is generally the Father who is referred to; that is, Elohim. All mankind are His children. The personage known as Jehovah in Old Testament times, and who is usually identified in the Old Testament as Lord (in small capitals), is the Son, known as Jesus Christ, and who is also a God. Jesus works under the direction of the Father and is in complete harmony with Him. All mankind are His brethren and sisters, He being the eldest of the spirit children of Elohim. Many of the things that the scripture says were done by God were actually done by the Lord (Jesus). Thus the scripture says that “God created the heaven and the earth” (Gen. 1:1), but we know that it was actually the Lord (Jesus) who was the creator (John 1:3, 10), or as Paul said, God created all things by Christ Jesus (Eph. 3:9). The Holy Ghost is also a God and is variously called the Holy Spirit, the Spirit, the Spirit of God, etc.
God

The Savior taught: “But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted” (Matt. 23:11–12). The Savior lived His teachings. He showed us the way. The God of this earth, the Redeemer of the world, condescended to minister to the humble, despised, despairing, hopeless, and helpless.
“The Condescension of God” - Ensign Dec. 2001 - ensign

Did the Mormon Jesus lie?

14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:
15 Lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and they go a whoring after their gods, and do sacrifice unto their gods, and one call thee, and thou eat of his sacrifice;

The word worship means in the Hebrew "to bow down, prostrate oneself". Abraham made a covenant with Yahweh that he would be "a God' to them from generation to generation(Gen 17). Yahweh/Jesus is the mediator of the covenant between Elohim and Israel and now us. (Mal 1 & 1Tim 2:5) Yahweh was warning them; you will not break this covenant by making another covenant with an other god.

Rescued One · Aug 4, 2017

Jehovah said:

Isaiah 44 KJV
8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Isaiah 44 NIV
8 Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one.

Did the Mormon Jesus aka Jehovah know his father? Yes or no? Why is Nephi speaking in past tense in 2 Nephi 31?

2 Nephi 31 (About 559–545 B.C.)
6 And now, I would ask of you, my beloved brethren, wherein the Lamb of God did fulfil all righteousness in being baptized by water?

7 Know ye not that he was holy? But notwithstanding he being holy, he showeth unto the children of men that, according to the flesh he humbleth himself before the Father, and witnesseth unto the Father that he would be obedient unto him in keeping his commandments.
2 Nephi 31

LDS Did the Mormon Jesus (aka Jehovah) lie?

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