Purgatory: The Brass Ring

The title is about Purgatory but you cite RC doctrine on mortal sin and hell.

WebersHome said:

-
I call Purgatory a brass ring because of the difficulty of obtaining a free ride to that world.

Take Catholics for example. According to the Catechism (CCC 1035) when they leave this life with just one un-absolved mortal sin to their credit, just 1, they go directly to Hell and eternal suffering-- no delay, and no waiting period.

Their trip is a direct flight, so that even if they've been a faithful Catholic for 49 years, they will miss the boat just as if they had been a Hindu, or a Muslim, or an atheist. All their years as a faithful Catholic will be stricken from the record and count for naught.

Q: Why can't Catholics obtain absolution for mortal sins in the afterlife?

A: The Catholic catechism doesn't allow it.

"There is no repentance for the angels after their fall, just as there is no repentance for men after death." (CCC 393)

/

Click to expand...

The insecurity created by this kind of spiritual schizophrenia is impossible to live with. I tried for many years. Never knowing if you will be good enough. Knowing that you aren't good enough. . . It was a nightmare for me.

This is the Latin Catholic conception of sin. Eastern Catholics, on the other hand, may take the same approach as Eastern Orthodox on their concept of sin. I am a Latin, so in this post I will approach it from the Latin tradition.

Scripture does clearly tell us there are certain kinds of sins that are worse than others. We can find this in the words of our Lord Jesus himself:

"And if anyone says a word against the Son of man, he will have forgiveness: but for him who says evil words against the Holy Spirit, there will be no forgiveness." - Luke 12:10

Traditionally this verse has been interpreted as unbelief (atheism, despair, polytheism, heresy), and many would probably consider this self-evidently the worst sin of all because no forgiveness will be given for committing it.

The scriptures also speak of degrees of sin in another place as well, this time much more direct and doctrinal:

"If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life—to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death." - 1 John 5:16-17

Now, to the point of your post; to really answer your question I think I am going to let St. Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274) speak now on his "division" of mortal and venial sin because in principle that seems to be what you're asking about. His explanation of it may be able to answer your question best as he delves into the natures of mortal and venial sin and explains why they're different.

"For sin, being a sickness of the soul, as stated above , is said to be mortal by comparison with a disease, which is said to be mortal, through causing an irreparable defect consisting in the corruption of a principle, as stated above. Now the principle of the spiritual life, which is a life in accord with virtue, is the order to the last end, as stated above: and if this order be corrupted, it cannot be repaired by any intrinsic principle, but by the power of God alone, as stated above, because disorders in things referred to the end, are repaired through the end, even as an error about conclusions can be repaired through the truth of the principles. Hence the defect of order to the last end cannot be repaired through something else as a higher principle, as neither can an error about principles. Wherefore such sins are called mortal, as being irreparable. On the other hand, sins which imply a disorder in things referred to the end, the order to the end itself being preserved, are reparable. These sins are called venial: because a sin receives its acquittal [veniam] when the debt of punishment is taken away, and this ceases when the sin ceases, as explained above." - St Thomas Aquinas (Summa Theologica [Prima Secundae Patris, Question 88, Section 1])

"Accordingly, mortal and venial are mutually opposed as reparable and irreparable: and I say this with reference to the intrinsic principle, but not to the Divine power, which can repair all diseases, whether of the body or of the soul. Therefore venial sin is fittingly condivided with mortal sin." - St Thomas Aquinas (Summa Theologica [Prima Secundae Patris, Question 88, Section 1])

"The division of sin into venial and mortal is not a division of a genus into its species which have an equal share of the generic nature: but it is the division of an analogous term into its parts, of which it is predicated, of the one first, and of the other afterwards. Consequently the perfect notion of sin, which Augustine gives, applies to mortal sin. On the other hand, venial sin is called a sin, in reference to an imperfect notion of sin, and in relation to mortal sin: even as an accident is called a being, in relation to substance, in reference to the imperfect notion of being. For it is not 'against' the law, since he who sins venially neither does what the law forbids, nor omits what the law prescribes to be done; but he acts "beside" the law, through not observing the mode of reason, which the law intends." - St Thomas Aquinas (Summa Theologica [Prima Secundae Patris, Question 88, Section 1])

More information as an answer to your question can be gathered here: SUMMA THEOLOGIAE: Venial and mortal sin (Prima Secundae Partis, Q. 88)

God bless!

redleghunter said:

The title is about Purgatory but you cite RC doctrine on mortal sin and hell.

Click to expand...

...and by the way, who DOES believe that mortal sins can be repented of and absolved after death? The OP seemed offended that this would be rejected by the RCC (or anyone else for that matter).

WebersHome said:

-
Post #1 neither accepts nor rejects, nor defends nor opposes, nor admits nor denies, the existence of a Purgatory. It merely points out that getting into Purgatory, should one exist, is not as easy as some people have been led to believe.

/

Click to expand...

That's interesting, considering that the church which invented and defined Purgatory, and is just about the only one that believes in it, teaches that virtually everyone has to pass through Purgatory before reaching Heaven. Of course, those who are bound for Hell don't go to Purgatory, so this means that just about everyone is going to Hell or a place just like Hell except that it isnt forever.

WebersHome said:

In other words, according to CCC 1030, virtually everyone going to heaven has to spend some time in a Purgatory

Click to expand...

That is correct as it stands. The only reason to equivocate at all on the idea of everyone going to either Purgatory or Hell is to take account of a very few, extraordinary persons such as the Virgin Mary whom the church does not suppose went to Purgatory. We might as well say everyone except for this technicality.

WebersHome said:

-
One of the Roman church's earliest official proclamations regarding a Purgatory was Pope Leo X's Bull of Exurge Domine. In the year 1520 he stated, along with some other things, that death is the termination not of nature but of sin, and this inability to sin makes [purgatorial souls] secure of final happiness; i.e. according to Leo X, the occupants of a Purgatory are unable to sin; subsequently, they are sinless and will not commit new sins while undergoing purgatorial discipline and purification.

Click to expand...

There does not seem to be anything special in this observation. After death, we do not sin. We have the status that was obtained in life, either salvation or damnation OR, in the case of Purgatory, salvation following some temporal punishment.

If Pope Leo X's Bull of Exurge Domine is correct as regards the absence of sin in Purgatory then I would have to conclude that Purgatory is a very peaceful place seeing as how everyone in residence there would be complying with the Sermon On The Mount and all the beatitudes.

Click to expand...

No. The alleged purpose of Purgatory is to pay for or be punished for sins that were committed in life. The Catholic church has described it as just like hell except for the duration.

WebersHome said:

Think about it. A society completely lacking sin of any kind can't help but be a peaceful society even if the citizens of that society are uncomfortable because true peace does not depend upon comfort. Go thru that list of behaviors I posted in #10. According to Leo X, those behaviors are not in Purgatory. You've neither seen nor lived in a society free of those evils so you can't appreciate what I'm talking about.

/

Click to expand...

This isn't a matter of reasoning something out. One church body invented Purgatory. It can and did define it anyway that church chooses, since it IS their invention.

And they defined it as a place of punishment for prior sins. Even if no new ones are being committed by the souls in Purgatory, they are there to be punished for what they did before.

By the way, all we have from Leo is the idea that Purgatory is not a place or state of being in which sin is committed. That idea is not controversial. It was you who took that point and ran with it, coming up with your own speculation. See here:

WebersHome said:

If Pope Leo X's Bull of Exurge Domine is correct as regards the absence of sin in Purgatory then I would have to conclude that Purgatory is a very peaceful place seeing as how everyone in residence there would be complying with the Sermon On The Mount and all the beatitudes.

Click to expand...

WebersHome said:

-
According to CCC.1031, Purgatory is for "certain" lesser faults.

Click to expand...

Which are called
"Venial SINS."

Plus, already-forgiven Mortal Sins are also punished in Purgatory, according to the church.

It's curious why Rome has never expanded the scope of it's concept to include all lesser faults rather than only certain ones.

Click to expand...

In recent years, the church has tried to soften the concept of Purgatory by emphasizing the idea that souls are prepared for heaven there, that they are purified of all wrongful tendencies that would make the person something short of perfect, etc. That may be what you are referring to.