Who comprises the Fall harvest?

gadar perets · Jul 11, 2017

Israel had three main harvests; Spring (Barley), Summer (Wheat) and Fall (Grapes). Believers are spoken of as wheat. Shavuot only concerns the first fruits of the summer wheat harvest or the first fruits of believers who will be resurrected from the dead.

Sukkot is a thanksgiving festival which takes place after the Fall harvest is, for the most part, complete. The question is, who do those Fall fruits represent? I know Revelation 14 speaks of the grapes of wrath, but it seems that the grape harvest should bring forth rejoicing and therefore, the grapes should represent people being saved in some way rather than objects of wrath.

Any thoughts?

dqhall · Jul 11, 2017

The harvest was a time of rejoicing. There was work for field workers. Crops were becoming ripe all about the same time and every spare hand was needed to bring in the crops before the elements, animals and thieves consumed them. Farm managers went into the market places where day laborers used to stand trying to get work. They hired as many as they could find. Working people repaid debts. Farmers got cash for the crops they had labored to raise.

God sent Jesus to preach and to teach. God was expecting a harvest of souls, mercy and forgiveness.

Remember when Jesus was in Samaria he stopped by a well while his disciples went into town to buy food. He was talking to a woman. She recognized he was a prophet and went and found people to meet him. He was speaking to the townspeople:

John 4:35 Don't you say, 'There are yet four months until the harvest?' Behold, I tell you, lift up your eyes, and look at the fields, that they are white for harvest already.

God can find more work for people than they realize. If only they will open their minds to the opportunities God has to offer.

Israel also has date palms, citrons, olives, vegetables, figs and tree fruits. What do these represent? It depends on the context of the parable you find.

visionary · Jul 11, 2017

One thing for sure, it is the last harvest of souls.

gadar perets · Jul 11, 2017

dqhall said:
Israel also has date palms, citrons, olives, vegetables, figs and tree fruits. What do these represent? It depends on the context of the parable you find.

Yes, those items were harvested as well. I just used grapes to represent the entire Fall harvest. So give me some possibilities of who are represented by the Fall harvest.

gadar perets · Jul 12, 2017

I believe the Spirit answered me this morning as I prayed for understanding. The grapes represent Israel (YHWH's vineyard - Isaiah 5:7). After their eyes are opened and they receive Yeshua as YHWH's Messiah and their Master and Savior they will be harvested (resurrected unto eternal life). Upon the completion of the harvest the Millennium picturing Sukkot will begin.

Open Heart · Jul 12, 2017

gadar perets said:
Israel had three main harvests; Spring (Barley), Summer (Wheat) and Fall (Grapes). Believers are spoken of as wheat. Shavuot only concerns the first fruits of the summer wheat harvest or the first fruits of believers who will be resurrected from the dead.

I think you are way off looking for "who" the various harvests refer to. They don't refer to groups of people. Just because the metaphor of what is used for believers somewhere else in Scripture doesn't mean that the Summer harvest refers to believers.

gadar perets · Jul 12, 2017

Open Heart said:
I think you are way off looking for "who" the various harvests refer to. They don't refer to groups of people. Just because the metaphor of what is used for believers somewhere else in Scripture doesn't mean that the Summer harvest refers to believers.

Yeshua himself said the believers are represented by wheat in the parable of the wheat and tares. The wheat harvest is the resurrection of believers. Shavuot represents the first fruits of the wheat harvest or the first fruits of those resurrected. The entire plan of salvation is based on Israel's agriculture. I think you need to study the issue more deeply.

Open Heart · Jul 12, 2017

gadar perets said:
Yeshua himself said the believers are represented by wheat in the parable of the wheat and tares. The wheat harvest is the resurrection of believers. Shavuot represents the first fruits of the wheat harvest or the first fruits of those resurrected. The entire plan of salvation is based on Israel's agriculture. I think you need to study the issue more deeply.

Sir, you are confusing apples and oranges. Just because wheat is used as a metaphor in one parable, doesn't mean that this is a consistant metaphor throughout the Bible. I disagree with you about Shavuot and First Fruits and the Summer Harvest, they are not prophetic. They do not refer to believers.

visionary · Jul 13, 2017

Open Heart said:
Sir, you are confusing apples and oranges. Just because wheat is used as a metaphor in one parable, doesn't mean that this is a consistant metaphor throughout the Bible. I disagree with you about Shavuot and First Fruits and the Summer Harvest, they are not prophetic. They do not refer to believers.

I believe the feasts are prophetic. They do refer to major events, just like Yeshua is our Passover lamb and fulfilled the Passover feast. Just like Pentecost has been fulfilled with the Holy Spirit upon the believers. So as the spring feasts were fulfilled with the first coming, so also will the fall feasts be fulfilled with the second coming. .... Col 2:17..

gadar perets · Jul 13, 2017

Open Heart said:
Sir, you are confusing apples and oranges. Just because wheat is used as a metaphor in one parable, doesn't mean that this is a consistant metaphor throughout the Bible. I disagree with you about Shavuot and First Fruits and the Summer Harvest, they are not prophetic. They do not refer to believers.

We also have Matthew 3:12; 9:37-38; John 12:24 and Revelation 14:15.

I had no idea there were MJs that do not view the feasts as prophetic. That is a basic teaching of Paul (Col 2:16-17; 1 Corinthians 15:20-23). I hope your not an anti-Paulist.

gadar perets · Jul 13, 2017

visionary said:
I believe the feasts are prophetic. They do refer to major events, just like Yeshua is our Passover lamb and fulfilled the Passover feast. Just like Pentecost has been fulfilled with the Holy Spirit upon the believers. So as the spring feasts were fulfilled with the first coming, so also will the fall feasts be fulfilled with the second coming. .... Col 2:17..

The Holy Spirit poured out on believers was only the beginning. It was the rain needed to help the harvest begin to grow. It will have its total fulfillment when the first fruits are resurrected on a future Shavuot.

Lulav · Jul 13, 2017

I believe that most of Torah is prophetic, G-d always tells his people what is going to happen before it happens.

The Seven moedim belong to him. They are his appointed times with his people. There is a reason we are to honor these appointments each year. Just as we are to honor our appointment with him each week.

I was reading through Lev 23 and noticed this, it might have some bearing on GPs question.

17 Ye shall bring out of your habitations two wave loaves of two tenth deals: they shall be of fine flour; they shall be baken with leaven; they are the firstfruits unto the LORD.

As we see leaven is not to be in the Passover bread and that first fruit is represented by Yeshua. However this next harvest, the two loaves I believe represent G-ds people. We have sin in us.

After it finishes giving the instructions for that day it says this:

22 And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not make clean riddance of the corners of thy field when thou reapest, neither shalt thou gather any gleaning of thy harvest: thou shalt leave them unto the poor, and to the stranger: I am the LORD your God.

I'm thinking about Ruth and how see gleaned from the field of Boaz and how she was brought in by the kinsman redeemer. Could these gleanings be for the Gentiles to take part of?

Lulav · Jul 13, 2017

this may add to it a bit, or not.

1corinthians 15

The Order of Resurrection

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

gadar perets · Jul 13, 2017

Lulav said:
I believe that most of Torah is prophetic, G-d always tells his people what is going to happen before it happens.

The Seven moedim belong to him. They are his appointed times with his people. There is a reason we are to honor these appointments each year. Just as we are to honor our appointment with him each week.

I was reading through Lev 23 and noticed this, it might have some bearing on GPs question.

17 Ye shall bring out of your habitations two wave loaves of two tenth deals: they shall be of fine flour; they shall be baken with leaven; they are the firstfruits unto the LORD.

As we see leaven is not to be in the Passover bread and that first fruit is represented by Yeshua. However this next harvest, the two loaves I believe represent G-ds people. We have sin in us.

Exactly. Not only are they the firstfruits unto YHWH, but v.20 says, "they shall be holy to YHWH for the priest. Compare that with Revelation 14:4c referring to the 144,000; "These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb." The 144,000 represent only one loaf of the two offered on Shavuot. The two loaves combined equal 288,000 to fulfill the type of David's government in which he had 288,000 men serving him throughout the year as his right hand men (1 Chronicles 27:1-15). Just as these servants in 1 Chronicles 27:1 served king David in all matters of his kingdom, the 288,000 firstfruits serve King Yeshua in all matters of his kingdom.

After it finishes giving the instructions for that day it says this:

22 And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not make clean riddance of the corners of thy field when thou reapest, neither shalt thou gather any gleaning of thy harvest: thou shalt leave them unto the poor, and to the stranger: I am the LORD your God.

I'm thinking about Ruth and how see gleaned from the field of Boaz and how she was brought in by the kinsman redeemer. Could these gleanings be for the Gentiles to take part of?

The Gentiles could glean from those fields as they are the "strangers" referred to in the verse above. The "poor" could refer to either Jew or Gentile.

Open Heart · Jul 13, 2017

gadar perets said:
We also have Matthew 3:12; 9:37-38; John 12:24 and Revelation 14:15.

I had no idea there were MJs that do not view the feasts as prophetic. That is a basic teaching of Paul (Col 2:16-17; 1 Corinthians 15:20-23). I hope your not an anti-Paulist.

I stand by what I said.

Yes there are LOTS of MJs who do not view the feasts as prophetic. Your view is actually very new. If I am not mistaken, it originated with First Fruits of Zion, but don't quote me on that. I used to hate FFOZ, but they have come a long way. I still don't like their "Feast are prophecies" thing.

Look, I'm pretty much a quasi Orthodox Jew who has become a Christian. To me, saying that Yeshua is the Passover sacrifice is a metaphor, not a fulfillment of prophecy. The Tanakh stands on its own. Yeshua practiced Judaism. Rabbinical Jews are "us" and not "them" for Messianic Jews. I tend to read the Tanakh the way that Jews read it, and struggle with Christian interpretation, although I understand it is what my Church teaches. To some degree, I make an effort, but I'll only go so far. I am a Messianic Jew because as a believer in Yeshua, I refuse to give up my Jewish practices and identity. That includes refusing to adopt a lot of what I see as excessive Christian gloss of the Tanakh.

It's one thing to say that Isaiah 53 is about an actual person--I understand there are standard verses that all Christians agree are messianic prophecies, and is based on the use of the 3rd person singular in the text. It's quite another to say the Summer Harvest is about believers. It's esoteric and has no basis in the text -- you can't take a metaphor in one passage and use that metaphor in a completely different book.

Open Heart · Jul 13, 2017

visionary said:
I believe the feasts are prophetic. They do refer to major events, just like Yeshua is our Passover lamb and fulfilled the Passover feast. Just like Pentecost has been fulfilled with the Holy Spirit upon the believers. So as the spring feasts were fulfilled with the first coming, so also will the fall feasts be fulfilled with the second coming. .... Col 2:17..

I just wrote a reply to gadar perets above. You might want to read that. This is another one of those, "We Messianics are just gonna have to agree to disagree agreeably." I just can't see why you believe what you do, but I respect your right to have your own opinion.

Shalom,
OH

gadar perets · Jul 13, 2017

Open Heart said:
I stand by what I said.

Yes there are LOTS of MJs who do not view the feasts as prophetic. Your view is actually very new. If I am not mistaken, it originated with First Fruits of Zion, but don't quote me on that.

If you are referring to what I wrote in post #14, it came from me as the Spirit led me to understand Revelation 14 and Shavuot. No man taught me what I believe on the issue.

It's quite another to say the Summer Harvest is about believers. It's esoteric and has no basis in the text -- you can't take a metaphor in one passage and use that metaphor in a completely different book.

The text of Exodus 12 says nothing about its prophetic nature, but we know for a fact that Yeshua fulfills the Passover lamb right down to the day and time it was to be killed. It would be an incredible mistake to view that passage on a totally carnal level as you are similarly doing with Shavuot.

Open Heart · Jul 13, 2017

gadar perets said:
If you are referring to what I wrote in post #14, it came from me as the Spirit led me to understand Revelation 14 and Shavuot. No man taught me what I believe on the issue.

Believers rely a lot on "being led by the Spirit." This has led to tens of thousands of denominations, all of whom disagree. Does the spirit tell contradictory things? For myself, I have relied upon "the spirit," and have flip flipped. I have learned from my own experience and from what I have seen in others that we cannot distinguish the leading of the Holy Spirit from our own intuition, emotions, and thinking. IOW, in as much as we THINK it is the Holy Spirit, we can still be wrong. You may still be wrong.

gadar perets · Jul 13, 2017

Open Heart said:
Believers rely a lot on "being led by the Spirit." This has led to tens of thousands of denominations, all of whom disagree. Does the spirit tell contradictory things? For myself, I have relied upon "the spirit," and have flip flipped. I have learned from my own experience and from what I have seen in others that we cannot distinguish the leading of the Holy Spirit from our own intuition, emotions, and thinking. IOW, in as much as we THINK it is the Holy Spirit, we can still be wrong. You may still be wrong.

Couple that with the Scriptural verification of the facts and I have an ironclad case that cannot be refuted unless one willfully blinds themselves.

I noticed you did not address my remarks about Exodus 12. Do you reject its prophetic nature?

Open Heart · Jul 13, 2017

gadar perets said:
I noticed you did not address my remarks about Exodus 12. Do you reject its prophetic nature?

You've already agreed that Exodus 12 contains no hint of it being prophetic.

Of course like I've said many times already, I don't consider it prophetic.

It is an analogy that Christ is the Passover lamb, a metaphor. It is not a fulfillment of any prophecy. The similarity between the two stories is nice, but not some kind of deep heavenly foreshadowing. I don't believe that in the slightest. Not even an iota. It is great poetry. Nothing more.

Who comprises the Fall harvest?

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