I'm beginning to doubt the depth of your salvation

Godlovesmetwo

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good works should come out of the fact that one is saved.
Ok then if that's the case, we should all be filled with spirit and loving our neighbour a piece of cake. If its not a piece of cake, then we don't have the grace given to us from being saved. ??
 
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tansy

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Ok then if that's the case, we should all be filled with spirit and loving our neighbour a piece of cake. If its not a piece of cake, then we don't have the grace given to us from being saved. ??

Of course we have grace given to us :). However, we are still having to overcome (through Jesus and with the help of the Holy Spirit) our 'carnal' nature. We are not completely sanctified yet, but going through that process, becoming conformed to the image of Christ, our minds being renewed etc. We are not yet perfect...I could go on a bit more, but am a bit distracted by my daughter watching TV.
 
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tadoflamb

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But we Catholics aren't one united bunch here either. :)
The main divide I see on CF is Conservative versus Liberal, whether it be Catholic or Prot.. Politics is bigger than religion in seems.

Nonsense. We're united under one roof, with one Eucharist.

CF does not the Church make.
 
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tadoflamb

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As long as one doesn't think 'good works' in themselves saves one - good works should come out of the fact that one is saved...from what God puts into you (not sure I've put that very well I'm afraid)

How many good works must one do before they know are saved?
 
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tansy

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How many good works must one do before they know are saved?

Not sure whether you're having me on with this question :(, but if not, then I would say 'none'. All I was saying was that 'good works' tend to come more naturally to someone once they're 'saved'. I'm not saying that ';unsaved ' people don't perform 'good works'...it's a question of changing heart attitudes I suppose. And I think 'works' can be anything, just little tiny things. For example, when I became a believer I suddenly became a lot more aware of other people around me and their needs, so I was much more open to just giving people a hand even with small stuff.
 
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tadoflamb

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:=)

It's good enough to tell any and all anywhere that say they are 'Christian' that you are too, because you believe this way --

I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.

I believe in Jesus Christ, God's only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
he descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into heaven,
he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
and he will come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen.

You've probably already noticed that the creed posted in the rules on CF comes with several asterisks and qualifiers. The 'communion of Saints' in particular drastically loses it's meaning once it's taken out of the Catholic context in which the Creed was defined.
 
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tadoflamb

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If you lived next door, you'd likely get to know me, and find we are having almost every belief the same. (Even though I don't think of myself as 'Lutheran', but simply as Christian, only, it was interesting to recently learn that Lutherans (the church we're attending in the last few years) and Catholics have completely agreed now on Justification, which was the big one, in my view. And that's one of 32 agree doctrines so far, including some striking agreements in those 32. The simple fact is we are about 98% the same, and identical in every salvific question so far as I know. I have a close Catholic friend who is very highly educated in history and theology and we talk for hours at a time.)

I have Lutheran neighbors. When we moved into our new home 14 years ago the Mrs. came over to excitedly invite me to an Alpha program that her church was offering. Alpha, she explained, was a way to introduce people to Christianity. I thanked her for the invite, but told her I was already a Christian and, coincidentally had just been confirmed Catholic.

"You don't need to confess to a priest", she said.

I bring this up as an example because so many times I feel like what is presented as a simple sharing of one's beliefs is actually a veiled attempt to undercut the Catholic faith.

I looked into the Alpha program and one has to pay for it to know what it entails. My Catholic friends tell me that it isn't necessarily friendly to Catholicism, that it taught against the authority of the Church the seven sacraments, etc. etc.

It's nice to hear about the unity of Lutheran/Catholic beliefs. As I understand it the LCMS has rejected the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification, at least the last I thing read they had some very strong negative reactions to it. My complaint is that it's exhausting distinguishing the nuances between the ELCA the LCMS and the rest of the alphabet soup. The tradition of protestantism promotes individualism to such an extent that in order to under stand protestants, the Catholic has consider each one on a personal basis.

In other words, we're going to have to pick you off one by one. :)

Thanks for being a mensch. If you were my neighbor, it would be great to get to know you.
 
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tadoflamb

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Not sure whether you're having me on with this question :(, but if not, then I would say 'none'. All I was saying was that 'good works' tend to come more naturally to someone once they're 'saved'. I'm not saying that ';unsaved ' people don't perform 'good works'...it's a question of changing heart attitudes I suppose. And I think 'works' can be anything, just little tiny things. For example, when I became a believer I suddenly became a lot more aware of other people around me and their needs, so I was much more open to just giving people a hand even with small stuff.

This why I believe 'sola fide' is a gospel of despair. From what I am told those who are saved will be doing good works and those good works will be abundant and easy to recognize. Then how many good works must one do to know that they are saved? It's an impossible question to answer since we aren't saved until the day we meet our Lord and He says, "Well done, faithful servant".

Moreover, if the works of those who are saved will be abundant and easy to recognize, in the spirit of the pastor of the OP, I'm beginning to wonder if those who claim to be saved are really as saved as they say they are. From what I've seen, there are a lot of leaves, but very little fruit. (Matthew 21:18-19)

Fortunately, I don't subscribe to that kind of theology, but by the their own testimony, it doesn't look good for the sola fides.
 
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Halbhh

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I have Lutheran neighbors. When we moved into our new home 14 years ago the Mrs. came over to excitedly invite me to an Alpha program that her church was offering. Alpha, she explained, was a way to introduce people to Christianity. I thanked her for the invite, but told her I was already a Christian and, coincidentally had just been confirmed Catholic.

"You don't need to confess to a priest", she said.

I bring this up as an example because so many times I feel like what is presented as a simple sharing of one's beliefs is actually a veiled attempt to undercut the Catholic faith.

I looked into the Alpha program and one has to pay for it to know what it entails. My Catholic friends tell me that it isn't necessarily friendly to Catholicism, that it taught against the authority of the Church the seven sacraments, etc. etc.

It's nice to hear about the unity of Lutheran/Catholic beliefs. As I understand it the LCMS has rejected the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification, at least the last I thing read they had some very strong negative reactions to it. My complaint is that it's exhausting distinguishing the nuances between the ELCA the LCMS and the rest of the alphabet soup. The tradition of protestantism promotes individualism to such an extent that in order to under stand protestants, the Catholic has consider each one on a personal basis.

In other words, we're going to have to pick you off one by one. :)

Thanks for being a mensch. If you were my neighbor, it would be great to get to know you.


Wow, that is bad that happened to you. I'm so sorry.

All I could say is don't judge churches by the actions of a few individuals. I don't know anyone in our own church that I think would do something like that, and I've gotten to know a lot of members very well, in cookouts and bible studies and most every Sunday in conversations with diverse members after services.

Salvation is individual. All who will be saved will be saved by their faith in Christ and doing what He said to do.

We all have to remember that this is not Red Team vs Blue Team.

That's only the human tendency to separate into groups and compete, like football teams.

We are all under Christ, and He owns His Church, and all who believe in Him and following, doing His commands, are His. He said. In the Gospel of John.

Yes, it's ultimately only a kind of surface detail whether some people that want to count doctrines are agreeing. Could they ever? We all know that there isn't a uniform point of view in any church, and the larger, the more diverse the viewpoints.

Francis was just addressing this reality very recently. And more than in one way. I found his statements encouraging, because yes, there will always be highly diverse viewpoints.
 
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tadoflamb

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Wow, that is bad that happened to you. I'm so sorry.

Don't worry about it. It seems to happen a lot. Especially online. I'm not sure if you guys get indulgences for drawing Catholics away from the Church, but I've noticed the pressure to dismiss the Catholic faith comes from the enemy, the world and ,yes, other Christians.

All I could say is don't judge churches by the actions of a few individuals. I don't know anyone in our own church that I think would do something like that, and I've gotten to know a lot of members very well, in cookouts and bible studies and most every Sunday in conversations with diverse members after services.

Don't some denominations have entire ministries devoted to converting Catholics? At least it sure seems it does. The pressure and the misinformation seems to be so consistent that I have to believe that it's being taught in some of these communities.

Yes, it's ultimately only a kind of surface detail whether some people that want to count doctrines are agreeing. Could they ever? We all know that there isn't a uniform point of view in any church, and the larger, the more diverse the viewpoints.

Francis was just addressing this reality very recently. And more than in one way. I found his statements encouraging, because yes, there will always be highly diverse viewpoints.

As a Christian, I believe Truth matters. The teachings of the Catholic Church are like the seamless garment of Christ. If you take out even one thread, the whole thing begins to unravel. As an American, I believe in religious liberty, I just don't believe any denomination has the same fullness of God's revealed Truth that is contained within the Catholic Church. It's an audacious thing to stay with modern Christianity in the state it is today, but I'm hanging with it. If not for the Catholic Church, I'm afraid I'd leave this Christianity thing all together.
 
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Colin

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If not for the Catholic Church, I'm afraid I'd leave this Christianity thing all together.

Stay put , Tad .

Remember that the Second Council of the Vatican , the 21st Ecumenical Council , affirmed that the Church of Christ subsists in the Catholic Church .

As Pope Paul VI stated in his encyclical Ecclesiam Suam " The Church was founded by Jesus Christ to be the loving mother of the whole human family and minister to its salvation..... God's house, the one, holy, Catholic, and apostolic Church of which the Roman Church is "mother and head." "
 
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tadoflamb

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Stay put , Tad .

Remember that the Second Council of the Vatican , the 21st Ecumenical Council , affirmed that the Church of Christ subsists in the Catholic Church .

As Pope Paul VI stated in his encyclical Ecclesiam Suam " The Church was founded by Jesus Christ to be the loving mother of the whole human family and minister to its salvation..... God's house, the one, holy, Catholic, and apostolic Church of which the Roman Church is "mother and head." "

Oh, I'm staying put.

To quote St. Peter, 'to whom shall I go?'
 
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