Jeb711

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That's my point. Many on earth either don't know who Jesus is or haven't been given the experience or the knowledge of who Jesus is.
I hear most Christian religions say if you don't except Jesus you go to hell.
How do I explain that to someone who doesn't believe (my nephew). And one of the main reasons he doesn't is because so many say he will go to hell if he doesn't. He doesn't want to sign up with a group if they think all others burn.
He believes in God. After many years as an atheist. I've reached him but it is difficult explaining some things like this question.
 
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lutherangerman

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Consider Romans 5 and the common grace of God - ie everyone gets saved eventually, some before death (the good church), the rest after death. I'm not sure it was always like this, but since the Cross and Resurrection that's the reality of salvation.

Before Christ there was Sheol. We all went there, except for a few like Henoch and Elia and Moses. Christ went to Sheol and I think he installed a portal there, so that everyone in it would be able to go to the heavenly realms.

Also the animals, I think they have an afterlife too. It's not just God it's also the cosmos, how He fashioned it so that every living being has an afterlife. Jesus' cross takes care that all get forgiveness. On Earth this often means you have to go to a service, to a priest, to another christian. God gives the directive. But after death we are different beings. Some reject God and go to hell, that's the punishment written about in the scriptures. But after a time they return to God because hell is a bad place and evil doesn't entertain those in it forever.
 
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YHWH_will_uplift

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How exactly can I explain to someone where non-Christians went before Christ was born and died. Where did the Jews go? Would it be fair for God to send to hell all the other types of people who were born in different lands and had no control over that? What if they tried to be good people? What if they would have come to Christ if given the chance?

Also: Where do unborn babies go? Aborted ones? What about infants who die before they can be baptized? Do they go to hell?
Consider the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus the poor man did not know Christ nor was he baptized: yet, the poor man made it to heaven: in this Jesus was true to to His Word that the poor will inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. And in the same story we read of Abraham in paradise: therefore to know God is to know the Son and the Holy Spirit. In the old testament God tells Moses that He is the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob: therefore God is the God of the living and not of the dead. And that God declared Himself as the God of the three patriarchs implies that they are His people. And when Abraham asked God if He would destroy the righteous with the wicked: God said He would not: this can be seen in the story of Noah: therefore God will not allow the innocent to be punished with the guilty: as God separated the Light (Good) from the Darkness (Evil) in the beginning, so too will He accomplish the same in the end.
 
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DreamerOfTheHeart

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How exactly can I explain to someone where non-Christians went before Christ was born and died. Where did the Jews go? Would it be fair for God to send to hell all the other types of people who were born in different lands and had no control over that? What if they tried to be good people? What if they would have come to Christ if given the chance?

Also: Where do unborn babies go? Aborted ones? What about infants who die before they can be baptized? Do they go to hell?

In general, and I say this with sensitivity, you should consider to step back a minute. These are unspiritual questions. So, of course, they will be common. But, the answer is spiritual. And, what I mean here is that you can not, ultimately, explain spiritual matters to people who are not spiritual.

I do not mean by this the person may be unsaved. As Paul pointed out he could no go into some matters with believers "because you are in the flesh". As in, mortal human beings.

Jesus took one question like this, which was asking about marriage and the resurrection. He really did not answer the question directly, but pointed out that they "do not know the power of God", and that those participating in the resurrection "will neither be married nor taken in marriage, but as angels of God".

Now, did Jesus get into there what he meant? He did not. One can certainly make a number of likely correct inferences, if one truly thinks about it. While, also, considering the other verses, such as the ones likening the end to a marriage ceremony where anybody and everybody is a participant. (Such as the 'ten virgins' which should not be thought as only 'ten Christian virgins' and certainly not 'male or female', but anybody, and everybody. Or, like the parable of the sheep and the goats. Where anyone might have found themselves saved, and anyone might have found themselves rejected. Again, not necessarily 'Christian', nor 'male', nor 'female'.)

Put in more human terms, I do not mind using a metaphor I once had a distinctly spiritual person use with me: that it is impossible to understand Heaven if you have not been there. It can be likened to not being able to understand some distant and very foreign land, like Japan. You just can not know unless you have lived there.

And how much more distant then this world, and how much more alien then this world, might Heaven be from earth?

So, stick to the message. Can the message be presented by considering such questions? I certainly do think so, as long as one does stay to the message. And what is that message? Is it one of eternal damnation for all? There are very many shown to have been saved in the end, in Revelation.

The message is that the Kingdom is now, and we may find the Kingdom by following Jesus. That, in finding the Kingdom, we find immortality and everlasting joy.

Jesus certainly did point out the world will end, and that those who are of the world will lose what they have. But, then, all must give up the world and follow Him now. Or what they think they have will be taken from them.

Otherwise, if you are truly stumped, maybe you should ask yourself what are the real answers here? And be wary, as people do believe what they want to believe, based on their own preferences.

I certainly do not consider a message of damnation and hellfire to be the one I see, when I read of what Jesus had to say about that Day. Rather, it is one where some will find that door shut to them, and others will find entry. Will it be forever shut to them? Some say, "so", others say "no", and still yet others say, "You are entirely missing the point".

That Day certainly is said to be one of "darkness and dread", and we are asked not to forget that.

But, this does not mean people have generally believed correctly on the specifics of "that Day"...

Indeed, you are not even called to follow mainstream beliefs anymore then you are called to travel the wide road of destruction which many walk.

But, such matters are not things one can have a simple "yes" or "no" to. Such matters, one must see for their own selves, to know and be sure.
 
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Colter

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How exactly can I explain to someone where non-Christians went before Christ was born and died. Where did the Jews go? Would it be fair for God to send to hell all the other types of people who were born in different lands and had no control over that? What if they tried to be good people? What if they would have come to Christ if given the chance?

Also: Where do unborn babies go? Aborted ones? What about infants who die before they can be baptized? Do they go to hell?
You have a big heart and a sense of farness and justice. Think of how much more fair, kind, Loving and just the true God is. Jesus revealed the Father in his life, it was a much more mature and believable portrayal than the Old Testament concept of God.
 
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Jeb711

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Some terrific remarks by many.
I would like to hear from someone who is of the belief, and many religions teach this including mine, why do they believe all others will go to hell that don't believe in Jesus. I know they see many quotes as black and white like "the only way to the Father is through me". I see it as Jesus made a way for all. I don't think it's universalism, which many religions say is heresay, but I believe Jesus has made a way. Somehow. But anything after death people say would be considered overwhelming and no choice is really given. I think there is something more or better than that.
I would really like to hear from maybe a priest or minister who knows about this biblically and could explain further.
 
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Albion

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That's my point. Many on earth either don't know who Jesus is or haven't been given the experience or the knowledge of who Jesus is.
I hear most Christian religions say if you don't except Jesus you go to hell.
Well, that sounds harsh or unfair, but what we have to go on is the Bible. Otherwise, we have no idea what the answer to that kind of question would be...and the Bible IS our main or sole guide to the will, the intentions, and the standards of God.

It--the Bible--gives very little indication that his forgiveness is extended to any sinner except on account of the sacrifice of Christ on Calvary and that it is applied to us mortals by Faith.

In other words, we can answer these kinds of questions only by saying either that 1) it is the Bible's answer or else 2) that we just do not know for sure if God makes exceptions that we are not given to know about.

But one thing is certain--any person asking why he should go to hell if he has not accepted Christ had better come prepared to also assert that he has never done anything wrong. It is not as though God declines to save people who did not know Christ but were otherwise perfect people deserving of nothing less than an eternity in heaven.
 
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RaymondG

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I believe that the way to salvation before you believed Jesus lived and died is the same as after. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. The OT was written of Me(Jesus). It is possible that Paul discovered this without reading the Gospels......as His letters are believed to be decades older than the gospels we read.
 
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Halbhh

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How exactly can I explain to someone where non-Christians went before Christ was born and died. Where did the Jews go? Would it be fair for God to send to hell all the other types of people who were born in different lands and had no control over that? What if they tried to be good people? What if they would have come to Christ if given the chance?

Also: Where do unborn babies go? Aborted ones? What about infants who die before they can be baptized? Do they go to hell?

Perhaps it's already been answered, but based on several verses in the NT the belief is that Christ descended to the dead after the crucifixion, and gave them the gospel, and a chance to convert.
1 Peter 3:18-20

Also, we have Romans 2: 6-16 as a guide to what happens to those without the law and without Christ. God is fair in judgement and does not have any partiality or favoritism, and will repay each according to their deeds.

A variety of verses in the Bible imply that innocent children will gain eternal life, including for example the Romans 2 passage above, but also other passages saying that without understanding, the law or conscience, sins are not counted, for example.

To get a sense of Jews before Christ, read the story Jesus tells of Lazarus and the Rich Man.
 
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Phantasman

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Many times, a Christian will tend to teach "religion over Gospel". A person may have a harder time accepting Gospel messages if he/she hears that they must speak in unknown tongues or handle snakes or follow a certain creed to be deemed a spiritual Christian.

The baptism by water is merely the decision we make in our minds to seek spiritual understanding over what we have been taught is physical reality. We change our path to a spiritual exploration process.

What changes many to seek the Spirit is when we are an example ourselves. When we are the example of Christs teachings, those who follow the world will see the difference. If we are all those things Paul says in 1 Corinthians 13, our love shows the happiness and contentment following Christ means.

Anyone can read the Bible. Anyone can read the Gospel. The world reads it and doesn't understand it. It is through ignorance that most are lost. The Truth makes us free.

Ignorance is the mother of all evil. Ignorance will result in death, because those who come from ignorance neither were nor are nor shall be. [...] will be perfect when all the truth is revealed. For truth is like ignorance: while it is hidden, it rests in itself, but when it is revealed and is recognized, it is praised, inasmuch as it is stronger than ignorance and error. It gives freedom. The Word said, "If you know the truth, the truth will make you free" (Jn 8:32). Ignorance is a slave. Knowledge is freedom. If we know the truth, we shall find the fruits of the truth within us. If we are joined to it, it will bring our fulfillment.- Gospel of Philip

Reflected in the Canon scriptures as well.

2 Corinthians
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,
lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
 
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Cassidy Bennett

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I think sheol, which is the Hebrew word for hell has 2 meanings. One is hell and the other in a deep sleep...or death. So when Jesus descended into hell for 3 days....it just meant he was in the tomb for 3 days in a deep sleep "sheol". Not that he actually went to hell itself. Then all the people in sheol mainly the jews went to heaven. You can see that when Samuels spirit was brought back by Saul. Clearly he was not in hell or he would have been grateful to be back. Maybe he was in heaven because of what Christ would do in the future? Not sure because time could work different too there.

Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" 1 Samuel 28:15

Babies/children go to heaven. The thing is sin is not this accidental ops I messed up. It's literally running from God. If someone doesn't believe in God, its not just this lack of understanding. If that is it they will eventually come to God. They are running from God.

Babies/ children on the other hand though born into sin are so innocent in many ways. They haven't learned to completely run from God yet. Children stand by their abusive parents even. They are aware they need someone to take care of them and that they can't be on their own. So when an angel, Jesus, etc appears to them of course they will go to them.

That's how I understand it but I'm not God. I trust his mercy being greater than mine.
 
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Walsinghsm Way

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Baruch Hashem Lybrah!

EDIT uhm yeah , apparently my phone posted the message before I was ready. My apologies. Herein is the completed, emerged and corrected text :
How exactly can I explain to someone where non-Christians went before Christ was born and died. Where did the Jews go? Would it be fair for God to send to hell all the other types of people who were born in different lands and had no control over that? What if they tried to be good people? What if they would have come to Christ if given the chance?

We always want to answer sincere questioners with truth covered in sensitivity and charity, and not seek to deliberately bring offense. In this spirit, I offer the following.

The simplest answer to these questions is that such answers have not been revealed in Scripture and Tradition so we do not know, or rather we have no assurance one way or the other of the final state of souls before the Incarnation, Passion and Resurrection of Our Lord, but as Christians we have Hope that even they have been touched by the Gospel.

For instance, it is an article of the Creeds (Apostles' and Nicene-Constantinopolitan) that our Lord descended to the dead , and Tradition holds that He preached also to the spirits in prison, following 1 Peter 3:19.

It is interesting to note in this regard that the Eastern Christian representation of the Resurrection -the Anastasis- depicts Christ trampling on the gates of Helm which are cross-shaped and with hands outstretched, leading by the hands our First Parents (Adam and Eve), and lifting them up out of their graves.

However, a vital point to consider is that God is perfect Justice amd perfect Mercy (how these two opposites are reconciled in the Godhead though is a Mystery, and one beyond the scope of this comment), and as all are under the sentence of sin and death pronounced upon our First Parents, God could, in justice, have left the whole human race where it was (He did, after all, send a Flood to wipe out sinful humanot while in mercy saving a remnant -Noah and family- as He has always done). For myself, I think that is too stark a picture to paint of a God Who desires to enter into Communion with His creation, but I had to throw it out there for completeness sake.

Also: Where do unborn babies go? Aborted ones? What about infants who die before they can be baptized? Do they go to hell?
Again, as with the fate of all who died before the Incarnation, it has not been explicitly revealed , but as we believe in a God of Mercy as well as Justice, we have Hope that such as died before birth or shortly after were not forgotten in the Plan of God for our salvation.

And here I might get a bit esoteric, so take what works and leave the rest.

It has become a pious notion in some Catholic circles that victims of procured abortion are like the Holy Innocents, slain by order of King Herod in his desire ro be rid of a potential rival King, Martyrs for the sake of Christ, and have offered up devotions and prayers expressing this folk belief, but as far as I know this has no official standing. (The Orthodox Churches may be more pragmatic in this regard though.)

Two other things to consider: Though the Catheism of the Catholic Church at #1237 states "The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that *assures* entry into eternal beatitude", [emphasis added]; it also says at #1261 concerning unborn, unbaptized infants: "The Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God, who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused Him to say, 'Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,' allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism".

My own Church, Episcopal/Anglican is probably messier than most as we contain within our Communion a veritable microcosm of Christian faith and practice, so you would find the whole spectrum of answers I'm afraid. But my hope is in God and in His Son and in His Holy Spirit, that Providence has provided for them, as for us.


So in the end, the long and short of it is, it is up to the Justice and Mercy of God where go all who through no fault of their own could not have the Gospel preached to them.

**some information (i.e. source quotes) comes from the Arlington Catholic Herald (link in blue)
Your Faith
 
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John 1720

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How exactly can I explain to someone where non-Christians went before Christ was born and died. Where did the Jews go? Would it be fair for God to send to hell all the other types of people who were born in different lands and had no control over that? What if they tried to be good people? What if they would have come to Christ if given the chance?

Also: Where do unborn babies go? Aborted ones? What about infants who die before they can be baptized? Do they go to hell?
Well what did Jesus say? Abraham lived 2000 years before the incarnation of Christ yet:
  • Matthew 8:11 “And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.
 
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Ken Rank

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How exactly can I explain to someone where non-Christians went before Christ was born and died.

We live looking back at what Christ did for us. Those who came before Him lived looking TOWARD what He would do. We have a heart for God and the work that Messiah accomplished. They had a heart for God and awaited the work He would do. It is all about Messiah AND our heart condition.
 
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Der Alte

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What about people who died before Christ was born? Infants? Mentally challenged etc?
Romans 4:15
(15) Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Romans 5:13
(13) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
 
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Ken Rank

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What about people who died before Christ was born? Infants? Mentally challenged etc?
Romans 4:15
(15) Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Romans 5:13
(13) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
I am not disagreeing with you, I am adding to your thoughts, if you don't mind?

The Yom Kippur sacrifice was for sin, but the Hebrew word for sin has a meaning we slightly miss today. Yes, it means "missing the mark" but what we miss is that the INTENT is the hit the mark. So one is trying, aiming at the proper target and simply misses. Since the Yom Kippur sacrifice for sin is what points us to Christ's work on sin... we know that those with a pure heart who just "miss" will be covered because there is no intent to rebel. There are other Hebrew words that deal with turning away because of emotion or outright rebellion... but chata'ah, sin... unintentional or unknown is what Messiah's work covers (the other require an act by US before we are covered... i.e. repenting, etc.).

My point... a child or baby doesn't have the intent to stand against God. They don't even yet understand the gravity of the choice between good and evil. They are covered... declared innocent.
 
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bling

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How exactly can I explain to someone where non-Christians went before Christ was born and died. Where did the Jews go? Would it be fair for God to send to hell all the other types of people who were born in different lands and had no control over that? What if they tried to be good people? What if they would have come to Christ if given the chance?

Also: Where do unborn babies go? Aborted ones? What about infants who die before they can be baptized? Do they go to hell?

I do not believe in the doctrine of original sin, so I believe children before the age of accountability do not need salvation, since they are in a safe condition.

So why do we not just kill all children so they can go to heaven?

One reason is we are not allowed to kill them, but the other reason is we want them to fulfill their earthly objective which a child cannot fulfill which can only be fulfilled on earth.

We should know enough about God’s Love from Jesus and 1 Cor. 13 and 1 John 4 if, we have no direct knowledge. So with that and other scripture we know God is selfless, loving, totally fair and just. We thus can trust God’s wisdom on this.

Ro. 3:25 also gives us some insight: God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished... (Rom. 3:25, 1984 NIV)

When is this “beforehand”?


Who is being left “unpunished”?


Is this a temporary reprieve and they will be punished later or will it be Christ being punished later?


I would normally just leave it for you to answer, but here are my thoughts:

The “beforehand” is referring the before Christ’s atoning sacrifice, since it is stated as a contrast to what we have since the cross.

Those left “unpunished” would be those who did as the prophets tell us: turned to God, repented, asked for forgiveness and were forgiven without being “punished”.

This was not stated as a temporary reprieve, but the way it was prior to the cross. If Christ is taking the “punishment” than there is no contrast between the ways it was done in the past and the way it is done now and there would be punishment and would not be “left unpunished”.

This brings up lots of other issues since this one verse contains lots of meat. I do not like the translators using the word “punished” when the same word is translated “disciplined” other places.

Today we can as our disciplining for our sins be crucified “with” Christ, while those in the past could not be crucified with Christ, but God could still forgive them.
 
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AFrazier

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How exactly can I explain to someone where non-Christians went before Christ was born and died. Where did the Jews go? Would it be fair for God to send to hell all the other types of people who were born in different lands and had no control over that? What if they tried to be good people? What if they would have come to Christ if given the chance?

Also: Where do unborn babies go? Aborted ones? What about infants who die before they can be baptized? Do they go to hell?
Babies first: Jesus said of children that their angels do ever behold the face of his father. Children go to heaven. Aborted children go to heaven. Unbaptized children go to heaven.

As for those prior to Christ: Very hard to explain. But faith is faith, to put it simply. Christ is God. To trust in God is to trust in Christ. The truly faithful who died before the advent of Christ are essentially grandfathered in. The intricacies of how this works is too complicated for a simple post, but that's the long and short of it.
 
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Albion

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I do not believe in the doctrine of original sin, so I believe children before the age of accountability do not need salvation, since they are in a safe condition.
If you are correct about that, the question is answered for Lybrah. But of course the idea that we are born with or in sin is the conventional Christian position which I suppose has to be addressed by her when speaking to her friends about this.
 
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