Christ or Antichrist: Who makes a covenant with many in Dan.9:27?

jgr · Jul 10, 2017

GUANO said:
The whole "future" Jacob's Trouble theory is a political scheme. Was it John Hagee that wrote the first book on that? I'm pretty sure it was. Joel Rosenberg was the next influential person to push it hard—Hagee is a charlatan, but Joel Rosenberg is much more insidious as he was a professional political strategist for Netanyahu primarily tasked with drumming up U.S. and European Christian support ($$$$) for Israel. Everyone else that pushes the blood moons and all that crap are just useful idiots to use a Marxist term. At least Hagee and Rosenberg got filthy rich for the price of their souls =)

And there's one born every minute (and a whole lot more) to lay down the dollars and lap up the deception.

GUANO · Jul 10, 2017

jgr said:
In over 1800 years of the history of the true Christian Church, only Irenaeus, and Hippolytus (his protege), espoused a disembodied 70th week. The Epistle of Barnabas was the first early post-apostolic writing to refer to the week. It was not disembodied therein.

Hmmm... I'm not aware that Hippolytus espoused a disembodied 70th week, do you know which work this was in? He accurately predicted that Rome would be partitioned into ten kingdoms and these in turn would be followed by the rise of the dread Antichrist, who would oppress the saints. The dread antichrist was St. Gregory who was the first Catholic High Priest to claim the Roman Emperor's title as High Priest of all mankind (Pontifex Maximus). He is also the person who 'changed times and laws' (Gregorian Calendar) and truly revived the pagan Roman Empire by bringing back the College of Pontiffs which was the oligarchy which ruled Rome from ~500 BC until their power was stripped by one of the Emperors.

Irenaeus: same question, which work can this be found in? All I know about him was that he was the first to argue apostolic succession (which is bs) and claim that the Roman Church was the only valid source of true doctrine (which led to the rise of Pope Gregory). During this time it was illegal and punishable by death to even read scripture without a 'license'...

I'm definitely interested in any books that may show that either of these individuals believed in that gap theory.

Revealing Times · Jul 10, 2017

ByTheSpirit said:
I dont agree with the time gap because it doesn't make sense to have a prophecy of 70 7's where the first 69 occur in sequential order and then just stops and inserts a couple millennia in between the 69th and 70th. Nothing in the passage indicates that.

This OP and article are really informative though

For starters you do not know that the first 69 weeks are in sequential order. Just looking at the starting point of the order allows us to understand there are three guesses as to when the order went out.

Secondly, WHY do you think the Prophecy was given in THREE SETS of Sevens instead of ONE SET of 490 Years to start with? Tick, tick, tick, because it is three different periods of time. If the 483 years were in sequential order as you suggest the Temple was destroyed in 70 AD and that was 40 years after Jesus' death and thus could have nothing to do with the prophecy as many assume that is the AoD.

The facts are this, the only reason God gave us three sets of sevens is because they are three separate time periods. 7 x 7 followed by a period of period of 7 x 62 followed by a period of 1 x 7.

Revealing Times · Jul 10, 2017

Joshua_5 said:
I think its insulting to believe in a gap in this prophecy. Not much of a prophecy if God doesn't know the timing (we or even the devil could do this, based on what God has already revealled). One purpose of this prophecy is to demonstrate that God is in ultimate control, because He not only knows what will happen, but when it will happen. The timing also confirms for us the New Covenant in Christ, it was not a change of plan or new religion, but something planned for from the beginning.

It would insult God far more to think He was too stupid to give us a mere 490 year prophecy or to only say 70 x 7 if it was a Sequential prophecy. In another words God is so dumb He had to confuse us by saying the prophecy is 7 x 7, 62 x 7 and 1 x 7. I wonder why he was that dumb? ANSWER... He wasn't dumb, he did it that way because the Prophecy involves three different periods of time, not ONE PERIOD of 490 Years.

ByTheSpirit · Jul 10, 2017

Revealing Times said:
For starters you do not know that the first 69 weeks are in sequential order. Just looking at the starting point of the order allows us to understand there are three guesses as to when the order went out.

Secondly, WHY do you think the Prophecy was given in THREE SETS of Sevens instead of ONE SET of 490 Years to start with? Tick, tick, tick, because it is three different periods of time. If the 483 years were in sequential order as you suggest the Temple was destroyed in 70 AD and that was 40 years after Jesus' death and thus could have nothing to do with the prophecy as many assume that is the AoD.

The facts are this, the only reason God gave us three sets of sevens is because they are three separate time periods. 7 x 7 followed by a period of period of 7 x 62 followed by a period of 1 x 7.

If that helps you sleep better at night then sure. You are literally the first person I have ever heard say the three different times could be separated.

Here's a thought, the three different time groups are to mark different events within the 70 7s. Have you thought about that?

So the first 7 7s end at a specific event, followed immediately by the 62 7s which end at a specific event, then followed up by a specific event. Much more plausible than some time gap theory that holds no weight at all

ByTheSpirit · Jul 10, 2017

My own view which is held by others is that the entire prophecy was fulfilled during the time of Antiochus IV. The anointed one was the High Priest Onias III.

Jesus in Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21 is merely saying the end times will mirror the same chaos and evil.

BABerean2 · Jul 10, 2017

ByTheSpirit said:
Jesus in Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21 is merely saying the end times will mirror the same chaos and evil.

Or was He saying that something similar to what happened during 167 BC would happen again in 70 AD?

Based on Luke's Gospel, it would be about 70 AD.

Not only did Antiochus Epiphanes desecrate the temple, but he also killed thousands of Jews and forbid them from circumcising their children for a period of about three years and stopped the temple sacrifices during the same time.

Mat 24:15　 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

　
Mat 24:16　 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:　

Jesus Foretells Destruction of Jerusalem (subtitle from e-Sword)

Luk 21:20　 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.　
Luk 21:21　 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.　
Luk 21:22　 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.　
Luk 21:23　 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.　
Luk 21:24　 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.　
(Most Bible scholars agree that the first part of this verse is about 70 AD.)

......................................................................................

The following explains the celebration of Hanukkah found in John 10:22, and the understanding of a Jew who lived shortly after the time of Christ about the fulfillment of Daniel's prophecy about the "abomination of desolation".
It shows that during the time of Christ the Jews were well aware of exactly when Daniel's prophecy had been fulfilled by Antiochus Epiphanes.
Josephus said it was fulfilled 408 years after the prophecy was made.

From "Antiquities of the Jews", Book 12, Chapter 7, by Flavius Josephus

"6. When therefore the generals of Antiochus's armies had been beaten so often, Judas assembled the people together, and told them, that after these many victories which God had given them, they ought to go up to Jerusalem, and purify the temple, and offer the appointed sacrifices. But as soon as he, with the whole multitude, was come to Jerusalem, and found the temple deserted, and its gates burnt down, and plants growing in the temple of their own accord, on account of its desertion, he and those that were with him began to lament, and were quite confounded at the sight of the temple; so he chose out some of his soldiers, and gave them order to fight against those guards that were in the citadel, until he should have purified the temple. When therefore he had carefully purged it, and had brought in new vessels, the candlestick, the table [of shew-bread], and the altar [of incense], which were made of gold, he hung up the veils at the gates, and added doors to them. He also took down the altar [of burnt-offering], and built a new one of stones that he gathered together, and not of such as were hewn with iron tools. So on the five and twentieth day of the month Casleu, which the Macedonians call Apeliens, they lighted the lamps that were on the candlestick, and offered incense upon the altar [of incense], and laid the loaves upon the table [of shew-bread], and offered burnt-offerings upon the new altar [of burnt-offering]. Now it so fell out, that these things were done on the very same day on which their Divine worship had fallen off, and was reduced to a profane and common use, after three years' time; for so it was, that the temple was made desolate by Antiochus, and so continued for three years. This desolation happened to the temple in the hundred forty and fifth year, on the twenty-fifth day of the month Apeliens, and on the hundred fifty and third olympiad: but it was dedicated anew, on the same day, the twenty-fifth of the month Apeliens, on the hundred and forty-eighth year, and on the hundred and fifty-fourth olympiad. And this desolation came to pass according to the prophecy of Daniel, which was given four hundred and eight years before; for he declared that the Macedonians would dissolve that worship [for some time].

7. Now Judas celebrated the festival of the restoration of the sacrifices of the temple for eight days, and omitted no sort of pleasures thereon; but he feasted them upon very rich and splendid sacrifices; and he honored God, and delighted them by hymns and psalms. Nay, they were so very glad at the revival of their customs, when, after a long time of intermission, they unexpectedly had regained the freedom of their worship, that they made it a law for their posterity, that they should keep a festival, on account of the restoration of their temple worship, for eight days. And from that time to this we celebrate this festival, and call it Lights. I suppose the reason was, because this liberty beyond our hopes appeared to us; and that thence was the name given to that festival. Judas also rebuilt the walls round about the city, and reared towers of great height against the incursions of enemies, and set guards therein. He also fortified the city Bethsura, that it might serve as a citadel against any distresses that might come from our enemies. "

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jgr · Jul 10, 2017

GUANO said:
Hmmm... I'm not aware that Hippolytus espoused a disembodied 70th week, do you know which work this was in? He accurately predicted that Rome would be partitioned into ten kingdoms and these in turn would be followed by the rise of the dread Antichrist, who would oppress the saints. The dread antichrist was St. Gregory who was the first Catholic High Priest to claim the Roman Emperor's title as High Priest of all mankind (Pontifex Maximus). He is also the person who 'changed times and laws' (Gregorian Calendar) and truly revived the pagan Roman Empire by bringing back the College of Pontiffs which was the oligarchy which ruled Rome from ~500 BC until their power was stripped by one of the Emperors.

Irenaeus: same question, which work can this be found in? All I know about him was that he was the first to argue apostolic succession (which is bs) and claim that the Roman Church was the only valid source of true doctrine (which led to the rise of Pope Gregory). During this time it was illegal and punishable by death to even read scripture without a 'license'...

I'm definitely interested in any books that may show that either of these individuals believed in that gap theory.

Quotes follow. The week appears to coincide with the time of antichrist at the end of the age/world.

Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book V, XXV, 3
"'And its ten horns are ten kings which shall arise; and after them shall arise another, who shall surpass in evil deeds all that were before him, and shall overthrow three kings; and he shall speak words against the most high God, and wear out the saints of the most high God, and shall purpose to change times and laws; and [everything] shall be given into his hand until a time of times and a half time,' that is, for three years and six months, during which time, when he comes, he shall reign over the earth. Of whom also the Apostle Paul again, speaking in the second [Epistle] to the Thessalonians, and at the same time proclaiming the cause of his advent, thus says: 'And then shall the wicked one be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus shall slay with the spirit of His mouth, and destroy by the presence of His coming.'"
Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book V, XXV, 4
"And then he points out the time that his tyranny shall last, during which the saints shall be put to flight, they who offer a pure sacrifice unto God: 'And in the midst of the week,' he says, 'the sacrifice and the libation shall be taken away, and the abomination of desolation [shall be brought] into the temple: even unto the consummation of the time shall the desolation be complete.' Now three years and six months constitute the half-week."
Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book V, XXX, 4
"But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom, that is, the rest, the hallowed seventh day; and restoring to Abraham the promised inheritance, in which kingdom the Lord declared, that "many coming from the east and from the west should sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob."
Hippolytus, Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, 61
"That refers to the one thousand two hundred and threescore days (the half of the week) during which the tyrant is to reign and persecute the Church, which flees from city to city, and seeks conceal-meat in the wilderness among the mountains,..."
Appendix to the Works of Hippolytus, XXV
"For when Daniel said, 'I shall make my covenant for one week,' he indicated seven years; and the one half of the week is for the preaching of the prophets, and for the other half of the week that is to say, for three years and a half Antichrist will reign upon the earth. And after this his kingdom and his glory shall be taken away. Behold, ye who love God, what manner of tribulation there shall rise in those days, such as has not been from the foundation of the world, no, nor ever shall be, except in those days alone. Then the lawless one, being lifted up in heart, will gather together his demons in man's form, and will abominate those who call him to the kingdom, and will pollute many souls."

GUANO · Jul 10, 2017

jgr said:
Quotes follow. The week appears to coincide with the time of antichrist at the end of the age/world.

Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book V, XXV, 3
"'And its ten horns are ten kings which shall arise; and after them shall arise another, who shall surpass in evil deeds all that were before him, and shall overthrow three kings; and he shall speak words against the most high God, and wear out the saints of the most high God, and shall purpose to change times and laws; and [everything] shall be given into his hand until a time of times and a half time,' that is, for three years and six months, during which time, when he comes, he shall reign over the earth. Of whom also the Apostle Paul again, speaking in the second [Epistle] to the Thessalonians, and at the same time proclaiming the cause of his advent, thus says: 'And then shall the wicked one be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus shall slay with the spirit of His mouth, and destroy by the presence of His coming.'"
Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book V, XXV, 4
"And then he points out the time that his tyranny shall last, during which the saints shall be put to flight, they who offer a pure sacrifice unto God: 'And in the midst of the week,' he says, 'the sacrifice and the libation shall be taken away, and the abomination of desolation [shall be brought] into the temple: even unto the consummation of the time shall the desolation be complete.' Now three years and six months constitute the half-week."
Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book V, XXX, 4
"But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom, that is, the rest, the hallowed seventh day; and restoring to Abraham the promised inheritance, in which kingdom the Lord declared, that "many coming from the east and from the west should sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob."
Hippolytus, Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, 61
"That refers to the one thousand two hundred and threescore days (the half of the week) during which the tyrant is to reign and persecute the Church, which flees from city to city, and seeks conceal-meat in the wilderness among the mountains,..."
Appendix to the Works of Hippolytus, XXV
"For when Daniel said, 'I shall make my covenant for one week,' he indicated seven years; and the one half of the week is for the preaching of the prophets, and for the other half of the week that is to say, for three years and a half Antichrist will reign upon the earth. And after this his kingdom and his glory shall be taken away. Behold, ye who love God, what manner of tribulation there shall rise in those days, such as has not been from the foundation of the world, no, nor ever shall be, except in those days alone. Then the lawless one, being lifted up in heart, will gather together his demons in man's form, and will abominate those who call him to the kingdom, and will pollute many souls."

Thanks for that—quite interesting!

Revealing Times · Jul 10, 2017

ByTheSpirit said:
If that helps you sleep better at night then sure. You are literally the first person I have ever heard say the three different times could be separated.

I am not the first to say it you might just have never saw/heard it or you might not have been paying close enough attention. The facts remain the same, God gave us THREE SETS OF SEVENS.

ByTheSpirit said:
Here's a thought, the three different time groups are to mark different events within the 70 7s. Have you thought about that?

Well, that it does of course, but you guys want to close your eyes to the facts, Jesus died after 69 Weeks, not after 69 1/2 weeks. So by your own narrative, you have to creep into the THIRD SET OF SEVENS with Jesus' death to fulfill your thinking on the prophecy, that Jesus is the one that makes the Covenant with many for one week. So that wouldn't work for you guys would it? In all reality the 70th Week will happen when the Anti-Christ makes a Seven Year Agreement with MANY, for one week, and he reneges on his agreement in the Middle of the Week. In Revelation what is the overriding timeline God is giving us? 42 Months, 1260 Days twice a Time, times and a 1/2 time, which match what ? The Middle of the Week broken by the Anti-Christ in Daniel 9:27.

Facts are this, its three sets of Sevens because Jesus is CUT OFF or dies after 69 Weeks. Israel must Repent/Atone before the 70th Week ends, this is not debatable, the prophecy says the REBELLION MUST END before the 70 Weeks are up. When Jesus is Sacrificed the Church age (Pentecost) is upon us, Israel is blinded IN PART until the time of the Gentiles is come in, then after the Rapture ALL ISRAEL (As a Nation, not every Jew) is Saved.

Spring Feast (Jesus Fulfilled all)

Passover ( Jesus Blood covers us )
Unleavened Bread ( Jesus had no sin )
First-fruits ( Jesus was raised from the Dead )

4. Pentecost (Church Age) on the Calendar by itself. Known as the Feast of Harvest. Jesus is the Sower, the Church is the Body, we are Harvesting souls for Christ Jesus. When does this Feast end? When the Trump Sounds, the Feast of Trumps didn't do much, they sounded the ending for the Feast of Pentecost/Harvest and announced that the Feast of Atonement and Tabernacle was NIGH.

Fall Feasts (Coming Soon)
5. Feast of Trumpets ( THE LAST TRUMP ??? )

6. Feast of Atonement ( Israel Repents after the Church is Raptured when the Trump sounds )

7. Feast of Tabernacle ( Tabernacle means to Dwell with God. Jesus Returns Israel Repents )

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

ByTheSpirit · Jul 10, 2017

Revealing Times said:
I am not the first to say it you might just have never saw/heard it or you might not have been paying close enough attention. The facts remain the same, God gave us THREE SETS OF SEVENS.

Well, that it does of course, but you guys want to close your eyes to the facts, Jesus died after 69 Weeks, not after 69 1/2 weeks. So by your own narrative, you have to creep into the THIRD SET OF SEVENS with Jesus' death to fulfill your thinking on the prophecy, that Jesus is the one that makes the Covenant with many for one week. So that wouldn't work for you guys would it? In all reality the 70th Week will happen when the Anti-Christ makes a Seven Year Agreement with MANY, for one week, and he reneges on his agreement in the Middle of the Week. In Revelation what is the overriding timeline God is giving us? 42 Months, 1260 Days twice a Time, times and a 1/2 time, which match what ? The Middle of the Week broken by the Anti-Christ in Daniel 9:27.

Facts are this, its three sets of Sevens because Jesus is CUT OFF or dies after 69 Weeks. Israel must Repent/Atone before the 70th Week ends, this is not debatable, the prophecy says the REBELLION MUST END before the 70 Weeks are up. When Jesus is Sacrificed the Church age (Pentecost) is upon us, Israel is blinded IN PART until the time of the Gentiles is come in, then after the Rapture ALL ISRAEL (As a Nation, not every Jew) is Saved.

Spring Feast (Jesus Fulfilled all)

Passover ( Jesus Blood covers us )

Unleavened Bread ( Jesus had no sin )

First-fruits ( Jesus was raised from the Dead )

4. Pentecost (Church Age) on the Calendar by itself. Known as the Feast of Harvest. Jesus is the Sower, the Church is the Body, we are Harvesting souls for Christ Jesus. When does this Feast end? When the Trump Sounds, the Feast of Trumps didn't do much, they sounded the ending for the Feast of Pentecost/Harvest and announced that the Feast of Atonement and Tabernacle was NIGH.

Fall Feasts (Coming Soon)
5. Feast of Trumpets ( THE LAST TRUMP ??? )

6. Feast of Atonement ( Israel Repents after the Church is Raptured when the Trump sounds )

7. Feast of Tabernacle ( Tabernacle means to Dwell with God. Jesus Returns Israel Repents )

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Who said anything about Jesus being the fulfillment of the prophecy?

I think the prophecy was fulfilled in the time of Antiochus IV. It could well be a multi-level prophecy with fulfillments in multiple ages, but the timeline again does not support a gap, especially of 2,000 years when the first 69 7s happened in sequential order

Quasar92 · Jul 10, 2017

BABerean2 said:
Jeremiah's Letter to the Exiles (subtitle from e-Sword)

Jer 29:1　 Now these are the words of the letter that Jeremiah the prophet sent from Jerusalem unto the residue of the elders which were carried away captives, and to the priests, and to the prophets, and to all the people whom Nebuchadnezzar had carried away captive from Jerusalem to Babylon;　

Jer 29:4　 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, unto all that are carried away captives, whom I have caused to be carried away from Jerusalem unto Babylon;　

Jer 29:10　 For thus saith the LORD, That after seventy years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you, and perform my good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place.　

Jer 29:22　 And of them shall be taken up a curse by all the captivity of Judah which are in Babylon, saying, The LORD make thee like Zedekiah and like Ahab, whom the king of Babylon roasted in the fire;　
Jer 29:23　 Because they have committed villany in Israel, and have committed adultery with their neighbours' wives, and have spoken lying words in my name, which I have not commanded them; even I know, and am a witness, saith the LORD.　

Jer 29:28　 For therefore he sent unto us in Babylon, saying, This captivity is long: build ye houses, and dwell in them; and plant gardens, and eat the fruit of them.　

Jer 30:1　 The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,　
Jer 30:2　 Thus speaketh the LORD God of Israel, saying, Write thee all the words that I have spoken unto thee in a book.　
Jer 30:3　 For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.　
Jer 30:4　 And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah.　
Jer 30:5　 For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace.　
Jer 30:6　 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?　
Jer 30:7　 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.　
Jer 30:8　 For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:　
Jer 30:9　 But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.　
Jer 30:10　 Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid.　

The only way to see "the time of Jacob's trouble", which occurred during the Babylonian captivity, is with a time machine set to return you to the time that Jeremiah lived.

How can Dispensationalists continue to rip this passage out of its historical context in order to make their doctrine work, and think that others will believe them?

.

What is the time of Jacob’s trouble?

The phrase "the time of Jacob's trouble" is a quote from Jeremiah 30:7 which says, "Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble; but he shall be saved out of it" (KJV). It is the time of the Great Tribulation, recorded in Dan.9:27, Mt.24, Mk.13, Lk.21 and Rev.6.

In the previous verses of Jeremiah 30, we find that the Lord is speaking to Jeremiah the prophet about Judah and Israel (30:3-4). In verse 3, the Lord promises that one day in the future, He will bring both Judah and Israel back to the land that He had promised their forefathers. Verse 5 describes a time of great fear and trembling. Verse 6 describes this time in a way that pictures men going through the pains of childbirth, again indicating a time of agony. But there is hope for Judah and Israel, for though this is called "the time of Jacob's distress" (NASB), the Lord promises He will save Jacob (referring to Judah and Israel) out of this time of great trouble (verse 7) .

In Jeremiah 30:10-11 the Lord says, “‘I will surely save you out of a distant place, your descendants from the land of their exile. Jacob will again have peace and security, and no one will make him afraid. I am with you and will save you,’ declares the LORD.”

Also, the Lord says He will destroy the nations who held Judah and Israel in captivity, and He will never allow Jacob to be completely destroyed. However, it should be noted that the Lord describes this as a time of discipline for His people. He says of Jacob, “Though I completely destroy all the nations among which I scatter you, I will not completely destroy you. I will discipline you but only with justice; I will not let you go entirely unpunished.”

Jeremiah 30:7 says, "That day is great, so that none is like it.” The only time period that fits this description is the period of the Tribulation. This time is unparalleled in history. https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Jer 30.7

Jesus described the Tribulation using some of the same imagery as Jeremiah. In Matthew 24:6-8, He stated that the appearance of false christs, wars and rumors of wars, famines, and earthquakes are "the beginning of birth pains."

Paul, too, described the Tribulation as birth pains. First Thessalonians 5:3 says, "While people are saying, ‘Peace and safety,’ destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape." This event follows the Rapture and the removal of the Church, in 4:13-18. In 5:9, Paul reemphasizes the absence of the Church from this time period by saying, "For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." The wrath spoken of here is God's judgment on the unbelieving world and His discipline of Israel during the Tribulation.

These “birth pains” are described in detail in Revelation 6-12 Part of the purpose of the Tribulation is to bring Israel back to the Lord.

For those who have received Christ as Savior from sin, the time of Jacob's trouble is something for which we should praise the Lord, for it demonstrates that God keeps His promises. He has promised us eternal life through Christ our Lord, and He has promised land, seed, and blessing to Abraham and his physical descendants. However, before He fulfills those promises, He will lovingly but firmly discipline the nation of Israel so that they return to Him.

Recommended Resource: Understanding End Times Prophecy by Paul Benware

Quasar92

Quasar92 · Jul 10, 2017

benelchi said:
While I think there are a number of arguments that support the idea that the antichrist is intended. This is not one of them.

In the preceding verse the antecedent is not "the coming prince" it is "the people of the coming prince" (עַ֣ם נָגִ֤יד הַבָּא). Taking away the construct noun (עַ֣ם) "people of", would be the same as suggesting that if someone said that "The man of God when to the temple and he prayed." That we can simply strip away "man of" and decide that "he" referred to God i.e. that "God prayed."

If we were to strictly follow your rule and assume that the closest antecedent should used to define this pronoun then it is "the people of the coming prince" and not the "coming prince." It is because the antecedent is not clearly indicated in the Hebrew grammar that so many suggestions have been made by scholars.

aniel 9:27 clearly says that the length of the covenant that "he" will make will be for one week or seven years. I suppose that this could mean either that the covenant will be predetermined to last seven years or that it does not specify a length of time when made, but as it turns out, is only in existence for seven years. Many of those who believe that the entire prophecy of the seventy weeks has already been fulfilled around the time of Christ’s first coming teach that the first half of the seventieth week was fulfilled by Christ’s ministry. "We know Christ’s three-and-one-half-year ministry," says Dr. Gentry, "was decidedly focused on the Jews in the first half of the seventieth week (Matt. 10:5b; cf. Matt. 15:24)." G. H. Pember objects to such a view with the following:

if the Messiah could be the subject, and the time that of the First Advent, we should then be plunged into the greatest perplexity; for the Lord did none of the things that are mentioned in the twenty-seventh verse. To fulfil that part of the prophecy, He must have made a covenant with the majority of the Jewish people for seven years, neither more nor less. But there is no hint of such a covenant in the Gospels. And, indeed, one of the prophets has intimated to us, that the Lord, just before His death, suspended all His relations with the Jews, and through them with the whole of the Twelve Tribes. This exactly corresponds to the suspension of His dealings with the Jews at the close of the Four Hundred and Eighty-third Year, and to the facts of history. Still further, the very next verse of Zechariah carries us over the interval, and brings us face to face with the Prince that shall come, the Anti-christ, who will make the seven years' covenant on pretence of being the Shepherd of Israel. Lastly, Christ did not cause sacrifice and offering to cease, when He suffered without the gate: the Temple-services were carried on for nearly forty years longer.

Conclusion

Once again we have seen in this installment on the seventy weeks that the text of this passage supports a gap of time between the sixty-ninth and seventieth weeks. It is becoming increasingly obvious that the seventieth week is still future to the time in which we now live. "Israel has now been reestablished as a nation (1948), suggesting that the seventieth seven may soon begin." Maranatha! "

By Thomas Ice, PhD

Quasar92

BABerean2 · Jul 10, 2017

Quasar92 said:
Christ did not cause sacrifice and offering to cease, when He suffered without the gate:

Heb 10:16　 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;　
Heb 10:17　 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.　
Heb 10:18　 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

.　

nonaeroterraqueous · Jul 10, 2017

Simple observation though, is that this prophecy lays out a determined number of years for its fulfillment, whatever that is, whether the covenant is the New Covenant by Christ, a broken covenant by Antiochus Epiphanes, or whatever. To stretch out any part of it over an indeterminate time span is to deny this fact. To try to accept a little of both, that part of it is a literal time measurement and the other is a figurative span of unknown time (two thousand ridiculously long years), is to make it look like a lie, albeit a lie that you earnestly believe.

Quasar92 · Jul 10, 2017

BABerean2 said:
Heb 10:16　 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;　
Heb 10:17　 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.　
Heb 10:18　 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

.　

As I have previously addressed your above favorite subject, the New Covenant, there are seven others, was activated when Jesus shed His blood and died on a cross. Everyone who has ever believed in Him, both Jew and Gentile alike, have received the Grace provided in i, of eternal life. The nation of Israel rejected Jesus as their Messiah, during His first advent and will not recognize Him as their Messiah until His second coming, recorded in Zech.12:10 and 14:4-5!

FYI, there is no Biblical support whatever in attempting to make the Church, the Israel of God The Church and Israel are two very separate entities at this time. Jesus is the Founder and Head of the Church. When Jesus establishes His Kingdom on the throne of David. in the restoration of the kingdom of Israel, as recorded in Acts 1:6; 2:29-30; 15:16; Zech.6:12-13, described in Ez.40-47, John 10:16 will be fulfilled, and Israel and the Church will become one entity with one Shepherd.

Quasar92

Brian Mcnamee · Jul 11, 2017

HI very nice debate here and I would look at Hosea 3 for some amplification. For the children of Israel shall abide many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred pillar, without ephod or teraphim. 5 Afterward the children of Israel shall return and seek the LORD their God and David their king. They shall fear the LORD and His goodness in the latter days.

In this passage Hosea state that Israel will go many days with king or sacrifice. They lost both king and sacrifice when Babylon conquered them. They did get the sacrifice back after and had it until 70AD Now it has been many days and the return of the sacrifice in the latter days is linked to the return of the kingdom and king David too. David is also promised to come again in jer 30
3 For behold, the days are coming,’ says the LORD, ‘that I will bring back from captivity My people Israel and Judah,’ says the LORD. ‘And I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.’ ”
4 Now these are the words that the LORD spoke concerning Israel and Judah.
5 “For thus says the LORD:
‘We have heard a voice of trembling,
Of fear, and not of peace.
6 Ask now, and see,
Whether a man is ever in labor with child?
So why do I see every man with his hands on his loins
Like a woman in labor,
And all faces turned pale?
7 Alas! For that day is great,
So that none is like it;
And it is the time of Jacob’s trouble,
But he shall be saved out of it.
8 ‘For it shall come to pass in that day,’
Says the LORD of hosts,
‘That I will break his yoke from your neck,
And will burst your bonds;
Foreigners shall no more enslave them.
9 But they shall serve the LORD their God,
And David their king,
Whom I will raise up for them.

The prophets predict Israel being delivered and the people with a heart of stone getting a heart of flesh. The one thing the futurist have going for them is the item specifics like the return of the nation with jerusalem the center of global political and religious turmoil at the same time a one world set of values unifying the religions of the world is being attempted and is supported by the UN NWO governments. The Catholic church just appointed a universalist as head of their doctrinal policy position.
Also the Temple Institute has prepared everything necessary to resume the sacrifices not done since 70 AD. The world is moving to do away with cash and has technology to give life to the image of the beast and enforce a no one can buy without the mark policy. The weapons we have could destroy all life on teh planet which scripture says the LORD cut those days short to save a remnant. The literal interpretation of end times scriptures matches the current events and stated agenda of the world leaders. This reminds me of the flood that the boat kept getting bigger and bigger and one day was finished and filled with animals and the rain came and those who had the evidence right in front of their faces denied it until they were being swept away. I hope we can have grace for one another and be united in the work of spreading the gospel no matter what we believe eschatalogically.

Quasar92 · Jul 11, 2017

nonaeroterraqueous said:
Simple observation though, is that this prophecy lays out a determined number of years for its fulfillment, whatever that is, whether the covenant is the New Covenant by Christ, a broken covenant by Antiochus Epiphanes, or whatever. To stretch out any part of it over an indeterminate time span is to deny this fact. To try to accept a little of both, that part of it is a literal time measurement and the other is a figurative span of unknown time (two thousand ridiculously long years), is to make it look like a lie, albeit a lie that you earnestly believe.

Seventy Weeks Are Determined Upon Thy People!

The following is a complete analysis Of the amazing prophecy found in the book of Daniel. We will begin in Dan.9:24 where the angel Gabriel is giving this prophecy to Daniel, the prophet.

"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and the prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."

1. Referrence here is to what God has decreed upon Daniel's people, Israel. (It has nothing at all to do with the church!)

2. See Gen.29:27 to explain that this biblical term of "one week" equals seven years. So the 70 weeks here, represents a total of 490 years, or 7 X 70.)

Vs.25. "Know, therefore, and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah, the Prince, shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks; (49 + 420 + 14 = 483 years, covering 69 of the 70 weeks,) the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times." (See Neh.1:6.)

According to the Royal Observatory, Greenwich, England, the exact date of King Artaxerxes, of Persia, gave the decree for some of the Israeli exiles to return to Jerusalem on March 14, 445 BC.

From the 69 weeks (Of years) from above, or 483 years, multiplied by the 360 days of the Hebrew year, equals 173,880 days.

Vs.26. "And after threescore and two weeks (Following the first 7 weeks, or 49 years to complete the rebuilding of the second temple and to restore and build Jerusalem.) shall Messiah be cut off, but not for Himself; (This culminates at a total of 69 weeks, or 483 years from the Persian King, Artaxerxes Decree on March 14th, 445 BC.) and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary, and the end of it shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."

After Jesus has been crucified, the Roman (prince) Titus comes with his legions and destroys Jerusalem and the second temple in 70 AD, after bitter fighting, scattering Israel and the Jewish people into their diaspora.

To establish the time Jesus began His ministry, and approximate age, we find the evidence in Luke 3:1 and 3:23.

Lk.3:1. "Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilot being governor of Judaea, and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Philip, tetrarch of Ituraea and of the region of Thrachonitis and Lysanias, the tetrarch of Abilene, Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests, the word of God came unto John, the son of Zacharias, in the wilderness."

Which brings us to 29 AD and Jesus is about 30 years of age.

Lk.3:23. "And Jesus Himself began to be about 30 years of age, (When all Jewish priests begin their priesthood.) being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, who was the son of Heli,"

Back to Daniel's prophecy of 70 weeks of years decreed upon his people, for a moment. We have determined as we fast close on all of the 69 weeks, 483 years, and 173,880 days in the Hebrew 360 day year as to exactly where it will take us.

Jn.12:12-13. "On the next day many people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem, Took branches of palm trees and and went forth to meet Him, and cried Hosanna! Blessed is the King of Israel, that cometh in the name of the Lord." April 6th 32 AD. (According to the Royal Observatory, Greenwich, England.)

Exactly 173,880 days from King Artaxerxes of Persia, decree of March 14,445 BC. [From Neh.2:1-8. Based on the 360 day Hebrew year. Which makes no difference whatever from a 365 day year].

360 X 483 = 173,880 days.

1. 32 years [AD] X 365 days in our year = 11,680 days.
2. 445 years [BC] X 365 days in our year = 162,425 days.
3. Total 174,105 days divided by 365 = 477 years.
4. Plus 24 days between the date of the decree in 445 BC and Jesus cut-off in 32 AD = 477 years, 24 days
5. Subtract one year because there is no year zero between 1 BC and 1 AD. = 476 years, 24 days.
6. 476 years X 365 days = 173,740 days +24 = 173,764 Days
7. Add days of the leap years over 476 years. Divided by 4 = 119 days = 173,883 days
8. Subtract 1/128 Calendar year day for every solar year: Leap year omitted every 128 years.= -3 days
= 173,880 days! Concluding 69 weeks X 7 = 483 years of the 490 years prophecied.

Which reveals the 360 day prophetic year of Israel is the very same as our present 365 day year when all the corrections have been made to the latter.

The 70th week of Daniel's prophecy, of the final 7 years, is the Tribulation, or Jacob's Trouble (Jer.30:7.) which will conclude the 490 year prophecy decreed upon his people, with a 2,000 year parenthetic in between, that covers the entire church age!

The gap of time between verses 26 and 27 is the reflection of God temporarily turning His back on Israel for ejecting Jesus as their Messiah, the establishing of the New Covenant of Grace, and the development of the Church, i.e., the time of the Gentiles. When the number of the Gentiles has come in, the Church will be raptured and this prophecy will begin.

Dan.9:27. "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week; and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

Hence this prophecy covers a period from 445 BC until Jesus has returned in His second advent to establish His kingdom here on earth! Or for 2,445 years +!

Blessings

Quasar92

Revealing Times · Jul 11, 2017

ByTheSpirit said:
Who said anything about Jesus being the fulfillment of the prophecy?

I think the prophecy was fulfilled in the time of Antiochus IV. It could well be a multi-level prophecy with fulfillments in multiple ages, but the timeline again does not support a gap, especially of 2,000 years when the first 69 7s happened in sequential order

Well then how could he fulfill the Prophecy 175 some odd years before Jesus was CUT OFF? Between me and you, Antiochus was nothing, h was a weaker version of his dad and he was nowhere near as strong as Alexander the Great, this leader will b the strongest of all time, he will murder 2 billion people or a 1/4 of all man-kind. The Abomination of Desolation is an End Time Event. As per Matthew 24, Daniel 12 and Rev. 12.

Its not gap, its THREE SETS OF SEVENS. Three Different Prophecies.

jgr · Jul 11, 2017

GUANO said:
I can't think of a single organization (other than the SDA's) that did not officially change their views on the subject in the 1920's.

There could be more than you think. The Christian Reformed and Presbyterian Church of America denominations are officially covenantal. The Church of God based in Anderson, Indiana is as well. In Canada, one of its largest evangelical denominations, the Christian and Missionary Alliance, also known as just Alliance, recently removed a reference to premillennialism from its Statement of Faith.

There are others, and the list continues to grow, as the Church returns to the prophetic faith of the fathers.

Christ or Antichrist: Who makes a covenant with many in Dan.9:27?

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