How was Jesus Christ justified?

Neogaia777 said:

So thinking like a Greek from that day, what would the word that was translated just or justification mean in their minds...?

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dikE and dikaiosunE meant right and righteousness as they where a society and NOT on trial.

Tree of Life said:

Well it seems a pretty direct quote of Scripture if you ask me.

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Quoting it is one thing. Giving it meaning it doesn't actually say is quite another.

You think this is not what Hebrews 2:17-18 is saying?

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I don't see anything about Jesus becoming justified there.

Tree of Life said:

We are justified by faith in Christ. But how was Jesus Christ justified?

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Tree of Life said:

We are justified by faith in Christ. But how was Jesus Christ justified?

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Jesus showed great faith:

And being found in human form, he humbled himself, becoming obedient to death, yes, the death of the cross.
Phi. 2:8

And that is why:

Therefore God also highly exalted him, and gave to him the name which is above every name;
Phi. 2:9

Colter said:

Jesus did not write a rigid doctrine, he said follow me.

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Who is Jesus?
What does it mean to follow him?

ViaCrucis said:

"But to one who without works trusts him who justifies the ungodly, such faith is reckoned as righteousness." - Romans 4:5

"If, because of the one man’s trespass, death exercised dominion through that one, much more surely will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness exercise dominion in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.

Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. For just as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous. But law came in, with the result that the trespass multiplied; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, just as sin exercised dominion in death, so grace might also exercise dominion through justification leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." - Romans 5:17-21

"For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, in order to bring you to God. He was put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit," - 1 Peter 3:18

It is Christ's righteousness that renders us righteous.

-CryptoLutheran

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Well, thank you for quoting one of the most difficult passages of Scripture to translated from Greek into English!

I'll just stick with Romans 5:17:

For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. Rom 5:17 NASB

In this verse we have a series of genitives you can identify by the word "of". To translate that is as difficult as the predicate nominative--which one is the subject, and which one is the predicate?

However, it is easy to determine by the Greek word order and the definite article(s), or not(no article--anarthrous). The conjunction kai: "and-also" is also important. This is the case here. The genitive case establishes a relationship usually of possession or source. Which is why we have to add the English word "of"--"of-this", "of-that".

These genitives are all articular with the definite article--"thee', "the".

So we have in the Greek: ...abundance of-thee grace(favor implying joy) and-also of-thee gift of-thee righteousness ones-keep-on-taking(NOT receiving)

In this phraseology, "favor" and "gift" are the possession and "righteousness" is the source.

So here, "righteousness" is not "the gift" but the source of the gift and favor that we might reign in life.

Therefore, righteousness is NOT a judicial act! Righteousness means: to do the right thing, in the right way. It is a noun of action.

A noun of action is like the "Golf Swing". To swing the club is a verb. To teach someone, from address to follow through, is to teach "the swing", which is a noun of action.

Another noun of action in Scripture is faith--"we walk by faith(noun of action)".

So, God declares to us that to function in faith(noun of action) is Equated(NOT imputed) as righteousness--doing the right thing, in the right way(noun of action).

Colter said:

* The evidence is in the fact that Jesus taught a gospel to the Jews. They were offended by it, did not belive in it. We know what happened.

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But how do you know this?

Colter said:

* We know that Paul wasn't one of the original chosen 12. Saul did not belive in Jesus and even persecuted believers. But we also know he as spirit born and became a mighty preacher of the gospel as he understood it. Paul was sincere in his faith and presentation like thousands of evangelists who came after him.

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Again, how do you know this?

He was justified by being God

doctorwho29 said:

He was justified by being God

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Exactly!

How could righteousness justify righteousness?
It makes no sense, therefore the question asked in regards to...

how Jesus was justified?

Is an illogical statement.

The question in itself is an invalid argument, that is, the conclusion of justification does not apply to the subject in question.

You said correctly, that is, Jesus is God. So how does God justify God, for the purposes of the argument, hence the argument in itself, is preposterous to ask in the first place.

redleghunter said:

But how do you know this?

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redleghunter said:

Again, how do you know this?

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Exactly. From what high point does Coulter sit that he knows things the entire Church has missed for 2,000 years?

Tree of Life said:

What do you mean?

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One need to be justified if they are not justified... Jesus justifys us by His atonment we need to be justified by Him because we cannot justify ourselves..

Since Jesus is without fault he does not need anyone to justify Him..

Colter said:

There has been controversy in the development of Christianity from the very beginning.

Jesus:

Mark 1:14-151 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent you, and believe the gospel. <------the cross hasn't happened yet, the "good news" of the original gospel wasn't "Christ and him crucified" as it came to be after the cross.

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Jesus preached the kingdom of God and showed us what it is like.
When God is recognised and honoured as king - given first place and people acknowledge that there is no other god besides him - then people are forgiven, receive healing and are made whole. Demons are driven out, the deaf hear and blind see, and sinners are brought to repentance and receive reconciliation with God and eternal life.

How does someone enter the kingdom of God?
By being born again, John 3:3.
By receiving eternal life, John 3:16, John 3:36, John 6:40.

How is someone born again, able to come to God, receive eternal life, be born again and one of God's children?
Through the cross, Romans 5:6-8, Romans 5:10, 2 Corinthians 5:20, Ephesians 1:7, John 14:6.
When we have been forgiven and reconciled to God, we can receive his Spirit. We also become new creations, 2 Corinthians 5:17, and receive assurance that we are God's children, Romans 8:16. When God is our Father we will love him, want to put him first, acknowledge him as our king, serve him and do his will and work.
There is no contradiction. The kingdom of God does not exist where God is not honoured, and served, as king.

Colter said:

Paul:

Galations 1:12 For I certify to you, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not devised by man. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.

Where did Paul get his beliefs from?

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That verse answers your question; the Gospel was revealed to him by Jesus. He met the Lord Jesus on the road to Damascus and was converted from a Christ hating Jew, to someone who preached Christ as Lord and died for his beliefs.

Colter said:

But when God, who set me apart from my mother’s womb and called me by his grace, was pleased 16 to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, my immediate response was not to consult any human being. 17 I did not go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went into Arabia. Later I returned to Damascus.

18 Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Cephas[b] and stayed with him fifteen days. 19 I saw none of the other apostles—only James, the Lord’s brother. 20 I assure you before God that what I am writing you is no lie.

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?? Paul wrote Galatians to people who were saying that he wasn't a true apostle; that he had just copied the 12 and got his teaching second hand, from other people.
So he is keen to show that he didn't; it was a revelation from God and he spent time, on his own, working through his beliefs before meeting the 12.
What's your point?

Colter said:

Jesus is the divine Son of God, the co-creator of our world.

To “follow Jesus” means to personally share his religious faith and to enter into the spirit his life of unselfish service for others.

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How have you arrived at these ideas?

Colter said:

Growing up in Christianity I was always confused and appalled by this teaching that we were supposed to kill Jesus as a human sacrifice so God could finally forgive. It presupposes that Jesus spent 3 years pretending to try to bring us to his gospel when all along his gospel was killing him!?!?!? It means that Jesus wasn't sincere when he said: "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.

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Jesus said that His gospel would repulse many.

Colter said:

It sure did make Judaism angry. The teaching that ALL men and women of the earth are in fact children of a Loving God really upset the authors of the arrogant "chosen people" delusion!

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"but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles,"

Colter said:

My point is that Jesus taught the original gospel for 3 years that he had hoped the Jews and Gentiles alike would accept. There wasn't anything wrong nor unfinished with the original gospel; salvation by faith.

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That's not what Jesus preached and was rejected.

Colter said:

That gospel was rjected and the Son killed.

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That makes it sound as though Jesus failed in some way; that his mission didn't go to plan, and that he got himself put to death.
His death was always part of the plan:
Matthew 1:21, the angel told Joseph that his child should have the name Jesus, because he would save people from their sins.
Luke 2:30, Simeon described Jesus as God's salvation.
Luke 19:10, Jesus said that he had come to seek and save the lost.
Mark 10:45, Jesus said that he had come to serve and to give his life as a ransom for many.
John 1:29, John the baptist said that Jesus would take away the sins of the world.
John 12:27, Jesus predicted his death and said that this was why he had come.
1 Peter 1:19-20, Peter calls Jesus the spotless Lamb, chosen from the foundation of the world.

Colter said:

A new gospel developed rapidly after Jesus left, the theory that we were supposed to kill Jesus as a sacrifice for the worlds sins.

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No; see the verses above.
In addition to this, and what Jesus himself said; his death was prophesied in Genesis 3, Isaiah 53, and by the prophets.

Colter said:

Paul had his own thinking which he assumed were coming from Jesus in spirit.

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So you are rejecting Paul then?
How do you know what he assumed?

Colter said:

Its in the collection of scripture books,

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The thing is, that if you reject Paul, you are saying the Bible is unreliable; as he wrote a lot of the NT. So if you believe Scripture to be unreliable, how can we accept it when you tell us that something is in Scripture?

Either Scripture's reliable, inspired and true, or it isn't; you can't say, "that is true and from God, but that bit isn't." That would leave it up to us to decide which bits we were going to accept.

Colter said:

* Jesus was/is a savior.

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Yes. What did he save us from, and how did/does he do that?

Colter said:

His religion was the original gospel.

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The Gospel is that the Kingdom of God is at hand, Mark 1:15 - and to enter that kingdom, you must be born again, John 3:3.
The Gospel is that everyone who receives Jesus and believes in his name has the right to become a child of God, John 1:12.
The Gospel is John 3:16.

Colter said:

Jesus NEVER said 'I give my body as a human sacrifice.'

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So what do the words;
"the Son of Man came .... to give his life as a ransom for many", Mark 10:45
" I lay down my life for the sheep", John 10:15
this is my body, given for you ...... this is my blood, shed for the forgiveness of sins", Matthew 26:28
mean to you?

Why did the apostle John say; "THIS is love; Christ Jesus died for sinners"?, 1 John 3:16, and the apostle Peter say, "you were redeemed ...... by the precious blood of Christ"? 1 Peter 1:19. Why did the author of Hebrews say that Christ's sacrifice was once for all, Hebrews 10:10? Why did the author of Revelation talk about the blood of the Lamb, and of a Lamb, looking as though it had been slain? Revelation 7:14, 5:6.

Colter said:

* "Take away the sin" means teach the gospel of repentance and faith.

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No, in the OT, Israelites were not forgiven unless they offered a sacrifice to atone for their sins. Hebrews says that without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness, Hebrews 9:22.
The early church stopped offering animal sacrifices for sin after Jesus' death and resurrection - and preached the cross instead.

Colter said:

* Indeed Jesus predicted his death, he had already said tht he would pro his authority to teach by resurrecting himself from the dead.

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He didn't resurrect himself, GOD raised him - thus proving that he was who he had said that he was, and all his claims were true, Acts of the Apostles 2:22-24; Romans 1:4 (Peter made the first statement.)

Colter said:

* Paul had his own Gospel interpretation.

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As do you; how do you know that yours is correct?

Colter said:

The Bible is a collection of human writings over time. Its like a stack of newspapers, initial reports of events may change later as more information becomes available.

Jesus taught his religion before the cross, Paul taught a religion about the cross, about what he thought it meant. You can put that in one book and call them both the same but they aren't the same just because they are in one book.

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Depends on whether you believe the book is from, about and inspired by God, or JUST a man made document. If the latter, then how can we believe anything it tells us - like that the words and deeds of Jesus were true?

Jesus taught about the cross, about his death, about laying down his life for his sheep, about a grain of wheat falling in the ground and dying; but you don't seem to want to accept it.

Colter said:

A new gospel developed rapidly after Jesus left, the theory that we were supposed to kill Jesus as a sacrifice for the worlds sins.

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If you are deriving the gospel of the Kingdom from the Gospel accounts of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, then I assume you take all truths from those gospel accounts? That's a question as I don't know what your canon looks like.

Assuming you accept the 4 Gospel accounts as truth, your argument falls as Jesus tells His apostles the following:

Jesus predicts His death and resurrection and also teaches such from parables:

Matthew 16:21

From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed , and be raised again the third day.

Matthew 17:9

And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead .

Matthew 17:22-23

[17:22] And while they abode in Galilee, Jesus said unto them, The Son of man shall be betrayed into the hands of men: [17:23] And they shall kill him , and the third day he shall be raised again . And they were exceeding sorry.

Matthew 20:18-19

[20:18] Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn him to death, [20:19] And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify him : and the third day he shall rise again .

Matthew 21:38

But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him , and let us seize on his inheritance.

Matthew 26:2

Ye know that after two days is the feast of the passover, and the Son of man is betrayed to be crucified.

Matthew 26:31-32

[26:31] Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd , and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad. [26:32] But after I am risen again , I will go before you into Galilee.

Mark 8:31

And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again .

Mark 9:9

And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead .

Mark 9:31

For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him ; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.

Mark 10:33-34

[10:33] Saying, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be delivered unto the chief priests, and unto the scribes; and they shall condemn him to death, and shall deliver him to the Gentiles: [10:34] And they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him, and shall kill him : and the third day he shall rise again .

Mark 12:7-8

[12:7] But those husbandmen said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him , and the inheritance shall be our's. [12:8] And they took him, and killed him, and cast him out of the vineyard.

Mark 14:8

She hath done what she could: she is come aforehand to anoint my body to the burying .

Mark 14:27-28

[14:27] And Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd , and the sheep shall be scattered. [14:28] But after that I am risen, I will go before you into Galilee.

Mark 14:41

And he cometh the third time, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: it is enough, the hour is come; behold, the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.

Luke 9:22

Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day .

Luke 9:44

Let these sayings sink down into your ears: for the Son of man shall be delivered into the hands of men .

Luke 18:31-33

[18:31] Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished. [18:32] For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on: [18:33] And they shall scourge him, and put him to death : and the third day he shall rise again .

Luke 20:14-15

[20:13] Then said the lord of the vineyard, What shall I do? I will send my beloved son : it may be they will reverence him when they see him. [20:14] But when the husbandmen saw him, they reasoned among themselves, saying, This is the heir: come, let us kill him , that the inheritance may be ours. [20:15] So they cast him out of the vineyard, and killed him. What therefore shall the lord of the vineyard do unto them?

Luke 24:6-7

[24:6] He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee, [24:7] Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again .

John 3:14

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up :

John 8:28

Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man , then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

John 10:17-18

[10:17] Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life , that I might take it again . [10:18] No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself . I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again . This commandment have I received of my Father.

John 12:7,:23-24, 32-34

[12:7] Then said Jesus, Let her alone: against the day of my burying hath she kept this. [12:23] And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified. [12:24] Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. [12:32] And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. [12:33] This he said, signifying what death he should die. [12:34] The people answered him, We have heard out of the law that Christ abideth for ever: and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up ? who is this Son of man?

Jesus commands the apostles to preach His death and resurrection and repentance in His name:

Luke 24:
44 Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.” 45 And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures.

46 Then He said to them, “Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 And you are witnesses of these things. 49 Behold, I send the Promise of My Father upon you; but tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high.”

Then Jesus makes it clear how the remission is based on his shed blood:

Matthew 26:

27 Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Therefore, the apostles preached the correct Gospel. We see this in 1 Corinthians 15:

1 Corinthians 15:
Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. 6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. 7 After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles. 8 Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time.

9 For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all, yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. 11 Therefore, whether it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.

Extract Luke 24:
-“These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.”

-“Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Extract 1 Corinthians 15:

-For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures...

Both extracts above from Jesus and from Paul mention "according to the Scriptures."

Here's the clincher of what Jesus and Paul speak of:

Isaiah 53:

Who has believed our report?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant,
And as a root out of dry ground.
He has no form or comeliness;
And when we see Him,
There is no beauty that we should desire Him.
3 He is despised and rejected by men,
A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief.
And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him;
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.


4 Surely He has borne our griefs
And carried our sorrows;
Yet we esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten by God, and afflicted.
5 But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He opened not His mouth;
He was led as a lamb to the slaughter,
And as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
So He opened not His mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment,
And who will declare His generation?
For He was cut off from the land of the living;
For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.
9 And they made His grave with the wicked—
But with the rich at His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was any deceit in His mouth.

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief.
When You make His soul an offering for sin,
He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,
And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.
11 He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied.
By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many,
For He shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great,
And He shall divide the spoil with the strong,
Because He poured out His soul unto death,
And He was numbered with the transgressors,
And He bore the sin of many,
And made intercession for the transgressors.

I think that explains how the apostles were preaching the correct Gospel. The Gospel Jesus told them to preach (Luke 24).

Colter said:

Jesus taught his religion before the cross, Paul taught a religion about the cross, about what he thought it meant. You can put that in one book and call them both the same but they aren't the same just because they are in one book.

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Yet what authority do you claim to confirm your view? If the Bible is just a collection of human writings with no inspiration, what do you point to as the authority for your claims.

Last I checked there was only one claim, no two, to conditional supreme infallibility. The Pope and "The Mormon First Presidency."