On Free Will

jimmyjimmy · Jul 9, 2017

HeLeadethMe said:
Who are we to say to the Lord why have you made me thus......we are born with weak flesh, of the earth earthy but nobody else is at fault, nobody else can take responsibility for our weak flesh but we ourselves. Through repentance we must go to overcome our weak flesh. God does His part, He gave us His word, His Son, He draws us by His Spirit, He chastises who He loves as sons, He speaks, He instructs, He does all He can.......but in the end we have to do our part....Godly sorrow and repent. I think when we try to splice and dice things too finely we end up missing the point....not that I haven't done it myself.

Sounds like you think we can save ourselves, with a little help from God.

HeLeadethMe · Jul 9, 2017

jimmyjimmy said:
Sounds like you think we can save ourselves, with a little help from God.

Not at all. Just saying we are free to accept or reject salvation. God tells US not to harden our hearts. He made us in His image.......with a will like He has.....He made us persons like He is a person. And I believe He helps us a LOT, not a little. Bless you.

now faith · Jul 10, 2017

jimmyjimmy said:
Nice text. Doesn't address my post.

Rather than play 20 questions why don't you qualify your reasoning as to why?
If I can reason rather than guess your reasoning ,maybe we can agree.
Snippets are ways to extend a debate or discussion,by using a endless array of trite answers or questions that create a illusion of higher education.

Therefore explain why my statement was not Bibical and if possible provide Schripture as a foundation as I have.

Galatians: 6. 14. But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

now faith · Jul 10, 2017

Hammster said:
All of the guests were gathered. None of them came willingly. If they had, they wouldn't have needed to be gathered.

What about wolves in sheep's clothing?
Their purpose is to destroy the flock,by taking them down a path of destruction.
They come as sheep not as Sheppard.

jimmyjimmy · Jul 10, 2017

now faith said:
Rather than play 20 questions why don't you qualify your reasoning as to why?
If I can reason rather than guess your reasoning ,maybe we can agree.
Snippets are ways to extend a debate or discussion,by using a endless array of trite answers or questions that create a illusion of higher education.

Therefore explain why my statement was not Bibical and if possible provide Schripture as a foundation as I have.

Galatians: 6. 14. But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

What Mr. Graham said is not biblically sound. His Universalism is not orthodox Christianity. In fact, promoting Universalism in this thread is against forum rules.

now faith · Jul 10, 2017

His first statement was: if anybody loves Christ, and knows Christ in their heart..
The YouTube people take cuts from statements but do not show the rest.
20 20 did that with Fred Price and had publicly apologized.
I do not believe Billy Graham is a Universalist.
I do know millions have come to know Christ through his crusades that span a lifetime.

If I would label this statement about people being called out,I would say the statement is a Calvinist one because it moves to irresistible Grace.

now faith · Jul 10, 2017

jimmyjimmy said:
What Mr. Graham said is not biblically sound. His Universalism is not orthodox Christianity. In fact, promoting Universalism in this thread is against forum rules.

Are you seriously telling me I am promoting Universalist theology?
Do you realize we have Mormons Here?
Atheist?
Morons?

I done bantering with this ,we need to stay on topic of the thread.

jimmyjimmy · Jul 10, 2017

now faith said:
Are you seriously telling me I am promoting Universalist theology?

Not you, Billy.

Citizen of the Kingdom · Jul 10, 2017

I don't know why everybody doesn't just dogpile on the rabbit. Have a great day ya'll

TheSeabass · Jul 10, 2017

now faith said:
Jesus preached to the dead all the way back to the time of Noah, God will find a way for the Gospel to be given to everyone.
The whosoever in John 3 Vs 16 is as it states

Jesus did not preach to them in person. 1 Peter 1:11 Christ's spirit was in those OT prophets, therefore those prophets were inspired by Christ's spirit in their preaching.

"Whosoever" refers to people that are alive, who can hear the gospel being preached and respond to it. I do not recall any NT apostle, preacher preaching to the dead to save the dead. If Christ did in preach to those antediluvians in prison, then what those of us who live after the flood, the bible says nothing about Christ preaching to those in prison who lived after the flood.

TheSeabass · Jul 10, 2017

HeLeadethMe said:
Agree with what you are saying here.........all SINNED and fell short of the glory of God. Like the child Emmanuel....when he was old enough to choose the right and reject the wrong......Adam and Eve had a brief time of innocency after they were made, but the time came to choose, and unfortunately they chose wrong. Every child likewise when they are old enough to begin choosing, chooses wrong, they choose to sin.....have a hunch that is around the age of two or so for most, based on what the Lord showed me about the time I first sinned, not yet three years of age.......also called the terrible twos, a stage of contrariness for most kids.

You mentioned "all sinner" which is what Paul said in Romans 5:12. "all have sinned" shows personal culpability in the sinning and not how one was passively born against his will having not committed any sin (Romans 9:11). Paul spends the first 2 chapters of Romans proving that all, both Jew and Gentile, have sinned If original sin were a biblical concept then would it make sense original sin would be at least be mentioned here in this context of all contexts? Instead Paul lists various transgressions Jews and Gentiles committed that makes them both sinners. If original sin were true , then Paul could have summed up two chapters in one verse by saying Jew and Gentiles are sinners for having been born with Adams sin yet Paul says nothing remotley close to this.

Isaiah 7:15-16; Deuteronomy 1:39 there is a learning, maturing process children must go through in being taught right and wrong.

Romans 7:8-9 Paul says if there is not law, then sin is dead. Then Paul says he was once alive WITHOUT the law meaning there was a point in Paul's life when sin was dead to him, a point with him being WITHOUT law. That would have been when he was a infant. Upon maturing and learning right from wrong, then sin sprang alive in him. Sin was not in him at birth, but sprang up later in his life. Genesis 8:21 "...for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth." From youth and not from conception or birth.

TheSeabass · Jul 10, 2017

bbbbbbb said:
It seems that infants in your neck of the woods are different than the ones here.

All infants everywhere are born the same... pure, without sin.

Every wonder why in John 3 Jesus used the term "born again"?

When one is first born into the world physically, he enters the world pure, with no sin. And when one is born AGAIN spiritually he rises from the waters of baptism pure, without sin just having had all his past sins remitted, washed away by the blood of Christ.

TheSeabass · Jul 10, 2017

PeaceJoyLove said:
What is the requirement to be justified in God's eyes? Faith in Jesus Christ. Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Infants have no sin, so they can be justified in God's eyes having committed no sin. God would not require faith from one when it impossible for an infant to have faith. This applies also applies to Christ. Your position would have all infants that die as infants automatically lost.

Furthermore NT faith includes water baptism and water baptism saves/remits sins. Since infants have no sins to be remitted, then baptism, which part of faith, does not apply to them. Therefore faith/baptism does not apply to infants. Hebrews 11:6 infants cannot have faith so baptizing an infant would not be pleasing to God, neither can infants come to God nor seek God diligently.

In Romans 3:9 when Paul said all are under sin, he was not referring to infants, but "all' here refers to the groups Jew and Gentile, not every single individual. Romans 3:10-18 is specifically referring to the group Jew (verse 19) and not every single person. The sinner Paul describes in verses 10:-18 are those " with their tongues they have used deceit" and "Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:" and "Their feet are swift to shed blood". Obviously, the language Paul uses here he does not have infants in mind here for they cannot talk much less speak deceits and curse, they cannot walk to shed innocent blood, etc.

TheSeabass · Jul 10, 2017

PeaceB said:
Neither of the two verses states that youth or incapacity excuses one from unbelief.

Nor is your distinction logical. You would excuse infants and the mentally incompetent because they have no ability to believe in the gospel, but you would not excuse mentally competent adults who have never heard the gospel and therefore also do not have an ability to believe in the gospel:

13 For, " every one who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved."
14 But how are men to call upon him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without a preacher?
15 And how can men preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach good news!"
16 But they have not all heeded the gospel; for Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?"
17 So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ.

Your distinction is also illogical because it would make a previously innocent infant a sinner deserving hell from the second that he reaches the age of reason until the moment that he hears and accepts the gospel. If nobody preaches the gospel to him within two days of him reaching the age of reason and he gets into a car accident he dies and goes to hell under your theology, whereby two days earlier he would have gone to heaven as an innocent babe. That is a ridiculous result, with all due respect.

So your are requiring the impossible from infants for them to be saved, and John says God's "commandments are not grievous" 1 John 5:3. It would be grievous to require the impossible. Obviously the command to believe is for those that have the mental ability to believe. Passages as Acts 2:36-38 requires one 'to know' before one can be baptized. Why would God require something of infants that God knows would be impossible for them? It makes God out to be an ogre who desires infants and the mentally disabled to be lost contrary to 1 Timothy 2:4. Repentance of sins is required to be saved, Luke 13:3 so how can infants repent when they have no sin to repent of? So your position is biblically illogical. Belief, repentance, confessing with the mouth and baptism applies to all who have sinned and have the mental ability to understand.

TheSeabass · Jul 10, 2017

PeaceJoyLove said:
Let's look see what scripture says...
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Why would God have to send His Word in the flesh of Jesus Christ to reconcile man?

It all has to do with "Thou shalt not eat..." and the Tree of Life is hidden until HE causes us to become blind that we might SEE...There is only One Way back to that Tree of Life and we are all born of the dust/earth realm. The Last Adam ...a New Creation through/In Christ (The Door) is required to gain entrance to The Kingdom of God...by all. Until that happens, we are eating from the forbidden tree...and disobeying the first commandment by God.

1) verse 14 speaks of those who "had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression." If every one inherited Adam's sin then everyone would have the sinned after the similitude of Adam. Yet people find themselves condemned for sinning sins DIFFERENT from Adam, hence sin is committed not inherited.

"POINT TO NOTE: Since these people died as a result of their own sin and it wasn't like Adam"s, then they surely didn't die from Adam's sin. The distinction between theirs and Adam's would be non-existent if they had died because of Adam"s sin. People die because of their own sins. (Colossians 2:13; Ephesians 2:1)." Dunagan's Commentary (my emp)

2) my point still stands that one is not sinner until he sins as Adam was not a transgressor until AFTER he transgressed.

TheSeabass · Jul 10, 2017

Hammster said:
You still didn't answer the question.

Yes, I know it says anyone. But some men are regarded as sheep, and some as goats. So, can goats enter, for instance?

The verse does not regard some as sheep and some as goats. It says "any man" with all men being alike here. One first enters then is saved. Calvinism is wrong if it tries to have men saved BEFORE they even believe (enter).

TheSeabass · Jul 10, 2017

Albion said:
Well, that is your opinion, and I already knew that. The Bible, however, doesn't support that view. It does say that men are naturally estranged from God, born in sin, etc. but there is nowhere that it says the opposite--that it's possible that there are some people who don't need a savior.

The bible does not say men are born estranged from God.

Romans 3:12 "They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable;..."

Gone out of the way NOT born out of the way.
BECOME unprofitable NOT born unprofitable.

Calvinism does not understand the difference in how men are born and what men become. Judas was not BORN a thief and traitor, this is what he later BECAME. One is not born a sinner but is what one later becomes upon sinning Romans 7:8-9. Sin sprang up later in Paul's life not when he was born for he was without law when he was born therefore sin was dead to him as an infant.

TheSeabass · Jul 10, 2017

jimmyjimmy said:
I didn't say that they were saved prior coming to Christ. I said that they were His sheep, which is why they came to His call.

"What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open country, and go after the one that is lost, until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing.

He came to redeem a particular group of people, and He will not lose even one of them.

So you are saying one can be a sheep of Christ yet not saved? One can be "of Christ" yet not saved?

Jesus came to redeem any man that chooses to enter John 10:9.

TheSeabass · Jul 10, 2017

Resha Caner said:
Maybe it is. No one is born with perfect DNA - there's not even a way such a thing could be defined.

Sin is a transgession according to 1 John 3:4. Since sin is not transferred by DNA or disease or just an idea that is passed from one to another, then one CANNOT be a sinner until he commits a transgression. What transgression has a newly conceived person committed in order for him to be a sinner? Lie? Steal? Murder?

Resha said:
Hmm. Then I must be misreading Psalm 51.

David did not say he was born a sinner, the NIV perverts the underlying Hebrew putting words into David's mouth he never said.

Being "born a sinner" and being born "in sin" is not the same thing.

By the way, Psa 51:5 speaks of conception while Psalms 58:3 speaks of birth. Concpeption or at birth? If at conception then one cannot become a sinner at birth per Psa 58 for he already is a sinner. If one does not become a sinner until birth then one cannot become a sinner at conception per Psa 51.

Citizen of the Kingdom · Jul 10, 2017

TheSeabass said:
The bible does not say men are born estranged from God.

Romans 3:12 "They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable;..."

Gone out of the way NOT born out of the way.
BECOME unprofitable NOT born unprofitable.

Calvinism does not understand the difference in how men are born and what men become. Judas was not BORN a thief and traitor, this is what he later BECAME. One is not born a sinner but is what one later becomes upon sinning Romans 7:8-9. Sin sprang up later in Paul's life not when he was born for he was without law when he was born therefore sin was dead to him as an infant.

Galatians 3:22
But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.

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