Catholics, what exactly do you believe about Mary?

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Albion

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Why would God place His Son in an unclean vessel?

Mary was pure and free from sin. She was chosen before time.
You might as well ask why he would lower himself to become one of his own creatures.

The wonder of the Incarnation is that all of this that IS our world WAS embraced by the Almighty as it was--even to the end that the Son of God was born as a human in a stable sheltering animals to ordinary parents who were members of a despised nationality.

"Why would God...." indeed.
 
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Major1

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I'm quite sure I've made it clear to you before that I am not Catholic.

You add to those words by saying Joseph had sexual intercourse with Mary after Jesus was born. Matthew is only telling his readers that Jesus was not born of a sexual union between Joseph and Mary. The "until" simply determines the time period he is referring to. It does not require a change of condition after as you wish to insist.

Now you resort to proof texting out of context. Numbers 30 clearly shows the possibility of celibate marriages, not to mention the number of times in Scripture where families have only one child, or others who could not have any children.

LOL, what more godly offspring could there be than God the Son.

Mary had already produced the greatest fruit possible.

I don’t know why you set up this straw man. No one has ever suggested it meant otherwise.

Catholics don't have a monopoly on this. It was the only teaching until some people decided they were smarter than everyone before them.

I did not say that your were Catholic. I said...............
"IF YOU CHOOSE TO ACCEPT CATHOLIC DOCTRINE".

I did not ADD any words to imply anything at all.

I simply posted the Word of God Matt. 1:24-25......
“Then Joseph, being aroused from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord commanded him and took to him his wife, and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name JESUS”.

If you choose to believe the obvious and logical meaning of "and did not know her till " is something other that sexual relation as a husband and wife, you are free to believe that.

If you choose to "Rationalize" the Scriptures in Numbers and Malachi to do nothing but support the NONE Biblical Catholic trenching of Perpetual virginity of Mary........you are free to do so.

I do not agree you but respect your ability to believe as you wish.
 
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Major1

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No, no it is not universally understood to mean that.



The earliest tradition is that these are the children of Joseph from a previous marriage. Step brothers, not cousins.



1) Your argument insists that the Protoevangelium is the source, that needs to be substantiated.
2) It is just as likely that the Protoevangelium merely reflects an already established tradition.
3) The validity of the Protoevangelium is irrelevant.
4) No one claims the Protoevangelium is authoritative.

-CryptoLutheran

I can not agree with you and it is NOT MY argument at all. What I post is the accepted theology of Protestant schools of higher learning.

I suggest that you focus more on Bible study and less on Catholic blogs and apologetic web sites. Those site are always slanted toward Catholic dogma and will not be a source Christian growth for you. They will support your thinking of the Catholic religion if that is what you are interested in instead of the truth of the Scriptures.

It is of course YOUR choice.
 
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Major1

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Earlier you stated that the doctrine comes from the Infancy Gospel of James, which teaches that the brothers are children of St. Joseph from a prior marriage.

So even if one takes the narrower view of the Greek word, for the sake of argument, that still would not prove your point.

I do not have A POINT. All I do is share the Word of God and information for anyone and everyone to accept or reject.

I stated that so as to let Catholic believers understand WHERE the doctrine came from of Jesus having brothers and sisters.

So that being said, I have to disagree with you and in fact the information clearly established hat Jesus had brothers and sisters.

The only reason to reject the clear word of Scriptures is to support the Catholic teaching
of Perpetual virginity of Mary.
 
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Major1

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That's a really kind, thoughtful question.


BLESSED VIRGIN MARY

I agree. It is a really good question and it deserves a good answer. I will try to do that for you.

First of all, may I say to you that the answer can only come from the Word of God, so lets post a couple of Scriptures.

Matthew 13:55-56.............
"Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brothers, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?"
And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?

Mark 6:3............
"Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him."

I am sure that you see the problem here. These verses so clearly contradict Catholic doctrine, that Catholic interpreters had to insist these are cousins, kinsmen, or from a supposed earlier marriage of Joseph. Now, none of those excuses are found in the Scriptures. Those are explanations given by the Catholic church in support of Mary's Perpetual Virginity. Of course, the Bible proves all these things wrong. The Catechism gives this false and incorrect explanation:

"The Church has always understood these passages as not referring to other children of the Virgin Mary. In fact James and Joseph, 'brothers of Jesus,' are the sons of another Mary, a disciple of Christ..." Pg. 126 #500).

Now THINK......These "people listed as BROTHERS and SISTERS Cannot simply be cousins because Colossians 4:10 uses a separate Greek word. John 1:41 uses the same term of Peter and his brother. Why in the world would God cause such a confusion when the words in the Greek are available to use as COUSINS and or KINSMEN??????

There is more in John 2:12 .............
"After this He went down to Capernaum, He and His mother, and His brothers, and His disciples; and there they stayed a few days."

Again, the original Greek word used here is BROTHERS and is not the word used for "Cousins".

Acts 1:14 ............
"And when they had entered, they went up to the upper room, where they were staying; that is, Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James. 14 These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers."

Again, the original Greek word here is for BROTHERS, and not cousins

Galatians 1:18.......
"Then three years later I went up to Jerusalem to become acquainted with Cephas, and stayed with him fifteen days. 19 But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lord's brother."

Same original Greek word here is used for BROTHER and is not and cannot be used for a cousin.

Colossians 4:10........
"Aristarchus, my fellow prisoner, sends you his greetings; and also Barnabas' cousin Mark about whom you received instructions: if he comes to you, welcome him".

The bible never uses these two Greek words anepsios or sungenis in reference to Jesus brothers.

Greek Dictionary: cousin/Relative:
anepsios (ajneyiov" , (431)), in Col. 4:10 denotes a cousin rather than a nephew (A.V., "sister's son"). "Cousin" is its meaning in various periods of Greek writers.¶ In this sense it is used in the Sept., in Numb. 36:11.¶ In later writings it denotes a nephew; hence the A.V. rendering. As Lightfoot says, there is no reason to suppose that the Apostle would have used it in any other than its proper sense. We are to understand, therefore, that Mark was the cousin of Barnabas."
(Catholics wrong: Mary had many other children in addition to Jesus)
 
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Evan Briggs

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I absolutely love all Catholic people. I only come here with love to spread the truth with people here. Also, to expose the ways of darkness.

Eph 5:11 KJV And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

Eph 5:13 KJV But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.
 
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bbbbbbb

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You might as well ask why he would lower himself to become one of his own creatures.

The wonder of the Incarnation is that all of this that IS our world WAS embraced by the Almighty as it was--even to the end that the Son of God was born as a human in a stable sheltering animals to ordinary parents who were members of a despised nationality.

"Why would God...." indeed.

It is a major stumbling block to many Chinese people that God did not send His son to the greatest empire on earth at the time - China - but to such an obscure and pathetic little country that was not even independent.
 
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PeaceB

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I do not have A POINT. All I do is share the Word of God and information for anyone and everyone to accept or reject.

I stated that so as to let Catholic believers understand WHERE the doctrine came from of Jesus having brothers and sisters.

So that being said, I have to disagree with you and in fact the information clearly established hat Jesus had brothers and sisters.

The only reason to reject the clear word of Scriptures is to support the Catholic teaching
of Perpetual virginity of Mary.
The point is that even if Jesus had brothers and sisters, that does not mean that they must be the biological children of Mary. I have a brother who is not the biological child of my mother, foe example. You should understand the argument since you are aware of the infancy gospel of James.
 
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Albion

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They kind of miss the point there, don't they? It's an interesting newsnote, just the same. Perhaps it speaks to the fact that although Christianity has grown under Chinese Communism, it hasn't occurred in the usual way with the guidance of trained missionaries and links to established churches in Christian countries.
 
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PeaceB

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I agree. It is a really good question and it deserves a good answer. I will try to do that for you.

First of all, may I say to you that the answer can only come from the Word of God, so lets post a couple of Scriptures.

Matthew 13:55-56.............
"Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brothers, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?"
And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?

Mark 6:3............
"Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him."

I am sure that you see the problem here. These verses so clearly contradict Catholic doctrine, that Catholic interpreters had to insist these are cousins, kinsmen, or from a supposed earlier marriage of Joseph. Now, none of those excuses are found in the Scriptures. Those are explanations given by the Catholic church in support of Mary's Perpetual Virginity. Of course, the Bible proves all these things wrong. The Catechism gives this false and incorrect explanation:

"The Church has always understood these passages as not referring to other children of the Virgin Mary. In fact James and Joseph, 'brothers of Jesus,' are the sons of another Mary, a disciple of Christ..." Pg. 126 #500).

Now THINK......These "people listed as BROTHERS and SISTERS Cannot simply be cousins because Colossians 4:10 uses a separate Greek word. John 1:41 uses the same term of Peter and his brother. Why in the world would God cause such a confusion when the words in the Greek are available to use as COUSINS and or KINSMEN??????

There is more in John 2:12 .............
"After this He went down to Capernaum, He and His mother, and His brothers, and His disciples; and there they stayed a few days."

Again, the original Greek word used here is BROTHERS and is not the word used for "Cousins".

Acts 1:14 ............
"And when they had entered, they went up to the upper room, where they were staying; that is, Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James. 14 These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers."

Again, the original Greek word here is for BROTHERS, and not cousins

Galatians 1:18.......
"Then three years later I went up to Jerusalem to become acquainted with Cephas, and stayed with him fifteen days. 19 But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lord's brother."

Same original Greek word here is used for BROTHER and is not and cannot be used for a cousin.

Colossians 4:10........
"Aristarchus, my fellow prisoner, sends you his greetings; and also Barnabas' cousin Mark about whom you received instructions: if he comes to you, welcome him".

The bible never uses these two Greek words anepsios or sungenis in reference to Jesus brothers.

Greek Dictionary: cousin/Relative:
anepsios (ajneyiov" , (431)), in Col. 4:10 denotes a cousin rather than a nephew (A.V., "sister's son"). "Cousin" is its meaning in various periods of Greek writers.¶ In this sense it is used in the Sept., in Numb. 36:11.¶ In later writings it denotes a nephew; hence the A.V. rendering. As Lightfoot says, there is no reason to suppose that the Apostle would have used it in any other than its proper sense. We are to understand, therefore, that Mark was the cousin of Barnabas."
(Catholics wrong: Mary had many other children in addition to Jesus)
No, those Scripture verses do not contradict Catholic teaching. You draw conclusions from the text that are not warranted.
 
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bbbbbbb

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They kind of miss the point there, don't they? It's an interesting newsnote, just the same. Perhaps it speaks to the fact that although Christianity has grown under Chinese Communism, it hasn't occurred in the usual way with the guidance of trained missionaries and links to established churches in Christian countries.

Yes, exactly. The unregistered Chinese Church today is struggling in its identity as in its outreach. I am distressed that, as in most modern Chinese culture, they are looking to America for their answers. In the case of the Chinese church they are rapidly assuming the practices of American contemporary mega-churches.
 
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bbbbbbb

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The point is that even if Jesus had brothers and sisters, that does not mean that they must be the biological children of Mary. I have a brother who is not the biological child of my mother, foe example. You should understand the argument since you are aware of the infancy gospel of James.

Do you really want to go down the road of the Proto-Evangelium of James, a document which was rightly rejected for its heresy by the early church?
 
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PeaceB

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I've never understood why some folks act as if the Bible is a book about Mary. I can't think of any more effective way for satan to attack Christians than to have them focus on someone other than God.
It seems to me that Satan has deceived many if not most Protestants to focus on themselves instead of God. They use Sola Scriptura as a pretense to reject the authority structure that Jesus established, making them accountable only to themselves for all practical purposes.
 
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Major1

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No, those Scripture verses do not contradict Catholic teaching. You draw conclusions from the text that are not warranted.

Then obviously we are reading different Scriptures. I have drawn NO conclusions at all but simply have posted the correct accepted Protestant understandings of said Scriptures.
 
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Major1

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It seems to me that Satan has deceived many if not most Protestants to focus on themselves instead of God. They use Sola Scriptura as a pretense to reject the authority structure that Jesus established, making them accountable only to themselves for all practical purposes.

It is absolutely true that Satan has indeed deceived many people.
 
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PeaceB

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Do you really want to go down the road of the Proto-Evangelium of James, a document which was rightly rejected for its heresy by the early church?
I never said that the doctrine originated with the infancy gospel of James, nor do I hold the infancy gospel as authoritative, so I do not know what road it is that you would have me go down.
 
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Major1

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The point is that even if Jesus had brothers and sisters, that does not mean that they must be the biological children of Mary. I have a brother who is not the biological child of my mother, foe example. You should understand the argument since you are aware of the infancy gospel of James.

NO! YOU have missed the point. The actual original Greek words mean BROTHER!!! They do not mean "Cousins".

For the language to match Catholic doctrine, the actual words used MUST BE CHANGED. That is the point my friend.
 
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Goatee

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I can not agree with you and it is NOT MY argument at all. What I post is the accepted theology of Protestant schools of higher learning.

I suggest that you focus more on Bible study and less on Catholic blogs and apologetic web sites. Those site are always slanted toward Catholic dogma and will not be a source Christian growth for you. They will support your thinking of the Catholic religion if that is what you are interested in instead of the truth of the Scriptures.

It is of course YOUR choice.

In other words, go it alone like Major1 and get completely lost!
 
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