Catholics, what exactly do you believe about Mary?

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kepha31

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We have many statues in our home. I have about 24 model Battleships and my wife has an extensive collection of Disney characters. BUT WE DO NOT BOW DOWN TO THEM my dear friend.
If I watched you from outside dusting them off it would appear to me that you are bowing to them. What appears to be is more important than the truth, isn't it Major1?
We do not acknowledge them by making a cross on ourselves.
Neither do we, you are just ignorant of the sign of the cross so you make up straw man fallacies as such.

Where may I ask did you come up with the term............."Christian devotional aids".
Your Bible is a Christian devotional aid. Where the term came from is irrelevant. The pamphlets that litter your church are Christian devotional aids. Art that has been used since the first century that helps ascend the mind to God are devotional aids. Calling them all idols is just plain stupid.
Is that like a hearing AID, or a walking cane kind of thing.

Why do you think that you need an aid? Do you not have faith? Do you not believe in the Lord Jesus Christ?
We don't need them, but you keep missing the point.

The Bible says that bowing down to a graven image is SIN but all of a sudden it is now a "Christian Devotional Aid".
The Bible says do not bear false witness, which is what you do with this false idolatry charge.
A statue is not worshiped, and you refuse to drop your preconceptions. For the 100th time, no statue or painting is worshiped, then it would be a graven image. You have no evidence that they are graven images in the minds of Catholics apart from superficial observation, an opinion, and plain 'ol fashion prejudice. So please stop with your FALSE ACCUSATIONS.

We honor saints in heaven because they have attained the likeness (eikon / image) of God (2 Cor 3:18); “spirits of the righteous made perfect” (Heb 12:23). This is why we venerate them, because they reflect God’s glory and are His vessels. The painter is praised when his masterpiece is praised. It is His work. The saints are God’s workmanship, not man’s. Paul tells us to “imitate” him, which is a concept, it seems to me, similar to “honoring” or “veneration” (1 Cor 4:16, Phil 3:17, 2 Thess 3:7-9); and this is because he, in turn, imitates Christ (1 Cor 11:1, 1 Thess 1:6). We are exhorted to honor and imitate the “heroes of the faith” in Hebrews 6:12 and chapter 11.
Veneration of Images, Iconoclasm, & Idolatry (An Exposition)

0102_St_Mathew.jpg

from psychotic iconoclasts:
A "graven image" of St. Matthew writing in a graven image of a book supported by a graven image of an angel and none of it tells me anything about St. Matthew writing his gospel and I need a new brain.​
 
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Evan Briggs

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The "until" argument does't work. It's explained in post #1098. Jesus having biological brothers is a recent invention and a false tradition of men. Tell me if you have a problem opening links.

It’s interesting to note that whenever Matthew mentions the Virgin Mary, he always identifies her as “Jesus’ mother.” (See: Matt 1:18, 2:11, 2:13, 2:14, 2:20, and 2:21, in which the author all but beats us over the head with the phrase “His mother.”) It’s unlikely, therefore, that Matthew is abandoning this point by later identifying her as merely the mother of James and Joseph: a secondary character, less important than Mary Magdalene. Taking all this into consideration, Mary the mother of James and Joseph and Jesus’ mother are apparently two different women. But first, let’s turn to Mark...
Jesus Brothers and Mary's Perpetual Virginity -- Catholic Apologetics, Philosophy, Spirituality

Respectfully, what is your interpretation of the term "knew" in Matt 1:25.

Because the Holy Spirit reveals to me through other scriptures of the same context that "knew" means to have sexual relations.

What version Bible do you use?
 
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ViaCrucis

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Respectfully, what is your interpretation of the term "knew" in Matt 1:25.

Because the Holy Spirit reveals to me through other scriptures of the same context that "knew" means to have sexual relations.

What version Bible do you use?

The Scriptures do not say that Mary and Joseph "knew" each other after Jesus was born. It says that they didn't throughout the duration of Mary's pregnancy.

If I say, "Until Bob's dying day, he never smoked a cigarette." That doesn't mean that Bob smoked a cigarette after his dying day, it means the entire duration of time being spoken of.

Matthew 1:25 does not mean Mary and Joseph had sex after Jesus' birth. It only means that they didn't have sex while Mary was pregnant with the Lord.

Whether or not Mary and Joseph ever had sex is never mentioned in the Bible. One could suppose they did, since that would be a reasonable thing to suppose of a married couple, but going purely by the word of Scripture such a thing cannot be concluded. And, to the contrary, it has been the historic, rather unanimous, opinion of the Church that Mary remained ever-virgin.

The argument against Mary being ever-virgin is one that can be supposed by reason, but not by Scripture or the historic tradition of the Church.

The argument in favor of Mary being ever-virgin is one that may be initially the most reasonable supposition, neither is it found in Scripture, but it is the historic opinion of the Church.

Neither position can be ascertained through Scripture alone, since Scripture is entirely silent on this subject.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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kepha31

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Respectfully, what is your interpretation of the term "knew" in Matt 1:25.

Because the Holy Spirit reveals to me through other scriptures of the same context that "knew" means to have sexual relations.

What version Bible do you use?
You base a whole theology on one word? Never mind the purity of the Ark of the New Covenant, never mind the Spouse of the Holy Spirit, never mind the Daughter of Zion, the writings of the early church fathers and above all, ignore 1st century Jewish customs because you have the word "knew".
 
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ViaCrucis

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Mary had other children is a Bible fact and not a denominational idea.

Perhaps you could show us where in the Bible it says that Mary gave birth to children other than Jesus.

Mary had sex with Joseph after the birth of Jesus.

I'm not sure how you could possibly know this. Has the Holy Spirit revealed to something that He has not shared with the rest of us?

The Protestant churches point to where the Bible says in Matthew 1:25 that Joseph "had no sexual union with her UNTILL she gave birth to a son Jesus". They take that to mean that after Jesus was born she no longer remained a virgin, and had normal sexual relations with her husband Joseph. The Bible also makes several mentions to Jesus having brothers and sisters (two of who wrote New Testament books).

No. That isn't what "the Protestant churches" do. That may be what your Protestant church does, but it's quite false that this is some universal Protestant belief. This is not the position of the Reformers or of the historic churches of the Reformation.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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kepha31

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ViaCrucis

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Scripture isn't silent on the purity of the Ark of the Covenant

Permitting the analogy itself, suggesting that if Mary did have intercourse with her husband after the birth of the Lord would have made her impure comes across as an attack on the sanctity of marriage; as though marriage and its ordinary course--sex and procreation--are somehow impure or less than sacred.

This is a great stretch to try and insist that the sanctity of the Ark of the Covenant means Mary is ever-virgin. This is no less weak an argument than saying that Mary must have had sex with Joseph because of Matthew 1:25. I would recommend not throwing the race while you're ahead.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Major1

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Perhaps you could show us where in the Bible it says that Mary gave birth to children other than Jesus.



I'm not sure how you could possibly know this. Has the Holy Spirit revealed to something that He has not shared with the rest of us?



No. That isn't what "the Protestant churches" do. That may be what your Protestant church does, but it's quite false that this is some universal Protestant belief. This is not the position of the Reformers or of the historic churches of the Reformation.

-CryptoLutheran

Maybe you you show us in the Bible where Mary is said to be a perpetual virgin and sinless.

Already said and done from Matt. 1:25 and NO the Holy Spirit has said nothing to me that He has not already said in the Scriptures.
 
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Major1

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Permitting the analogy itself, suggesting that if Mary did have intercourse with her husband after the birth of the Lord would have made her impure comes across as an attack on the sanctity of marriage; as though marriage and its ordinary course--sex and procreation--are somehow impure or less than sacred.

This is a great stretch to try and insist that the sanctity of the Ark of the Covenant means Mary is ever-virgin. This is no less weak an argument than saying that Mary must have had sex with Joseph because of Matthew 1:25. I would recommend not throwing the race while you're ahead.

-CryptoLutheran
Lets do some deep theological teaching here and see how your understanding is.

Every Catholic understands and says that Rev. 12:1-2 ...........
“And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; 2 and she was with child; and she cried out, being in labor and in pain to give birth” IS REFERRING TO MARY.

If you notice the text in verse 2 it says that she was “with child and she cried out being in labor and in pain.” This is a problem because according to the Roman Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, Mary did not inherit Original Sin.

CCC 491..........
“Through the centuries the Church has become ever more aware that Mary, "full of grace" through God, was redeemed from the moment of her conception. That is what the dogma of the Immaculate Conception confesses, as Pope Pius IX proclaimed in 1854: The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin.”

Gen. 3:16, .........
"To the woman He said, 'I will greatly multiply your pain in childbirth. In pain you shall bring forth children. Yet your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.'”

Notice that part of the curse is pain in childbirth. This is why women suffer during the birth process. So, when we look back to the text of Revelation 12:1-2, we see that the woman clothed with the sun is suffering birth pain. Since the Roman Catholic position is that Mary could not be suffering birth pain because of her Immaculate Conception and no Original Sin, then these verses cannot be about Mary and therefore the teaching of Mary as a perpetual virgin is voided.
 
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Major1

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Scripture isn't silent on the purity of the Ark of the Covenant, a foreshadow of the Ark of the New Covenant, which can only be Mary. What the Ark contained foreshadows Jesus, but the Ark itself foreshadows Mary.
Lesson One: A Biblical Introduction to Mary | Lesson | St. Paul Center

My dear friend........I suggest that you actually do so Bible homework and stay away from Catholic apologetic websites.

What you just said is ridiculous and totally in error and false.
 
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Major1

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You base a whole theology on one word? Never mind the purity of the Ark of the New Covenant, never mind the Spouse of the Holy Spirit, never mind the Daughter of Zion, the writings of the early church fathers and above all, ignore 1st century Jewish customs because you have the word "knew".

PLEASE.......do some homework!

(Know, Knowledge - Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology Online)
The word "know" is used as a euphemism for sex and intercourse: Adam knew his wife Eve and she became pregnant ( Gen 4:1 ). Women who have "known" a man are no longer virgins ( Numbers 31:17 Numbers 31:35 ).In his declining days David had an attractive attendant who served him but did not have sexual relationships with him ( 1 Kings 1:4 ). Even sexual perversions such as sodomy ( Gen 19:5 ; Judges 19:22 ) and rape ( Judges 19:25 )are designated by the word "know."

This is not just that hard!!!!
 
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Major1

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The Scriptures do not say that Mary and Joseph "knew" each other after Jesus was born. It says that they didn't throughout the duration of Mary's pregnancy.

If I say, "Until Bob's dying day, he never smoked a cigarette." That doesn't mean that Bob smoked a cigarette after his dying day, it means the entire duration of time being spoken of.

Matthew 1:25 does not mean Mary and Joseph had sex after Jesus' birth. It only means that they didn't have sex while Mary was pregnant with the Lord.

Whether or not Mary and Joseph ever had sex is never mentioned in the Bible. One could suppose they did, since that would be a reasonable thing to suppose of a married couple, but going purely by the word of Scripture such a thing cannot be concluded. And, to the contrary, it has been the historic, rather unanimous, opinion of the Church that Mary remained ever-virgin.

The argument against Mary being ever-virgin is one that can be supposed by reason, but not by Scripture or the historic tradition of the Church.

The argument in favor of Mary being ever-virgin is one that may be initially the most reasonable supposition, neither is it found in Scripture, but it is the historic opinion of the Church.

Neither position can be ascertained through Scripture alone, since Scripture is entirely silent on this subject.

-CryptoLutheran
You said............
" but going purely by the word of Scripture such a thing cannot be concluded."

And THAT right there is why there is disagreement between Protestant and Catholic.

We actually DO believe the Scriptures and you believe what a man says and you call that Tradition.
 
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prodromos

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The gospels do not contain anything unnecessary yet some Protestants insist that Matthew is writing something explicitly stating that Joseph and Mary had sexual intercourse, which has absolutely no bearing on the Gospel. The Greek text of Matthew 1:25 is actually a very concise and economical manner of stating that Jesus' birth was not the result of a sexual union between Joseph and Mary. That is all that is being conveyed. Nothing more.
 
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Goatee

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That is your opinion and you can do anything you choose to do. One of your Catholic friends posted earlier that Catholics actually do bow down to statues but then said it was OK BECAUSE IT IS GOOD EXERCISE!

If you believe that the depiction of Christ on the cross is a devotional aid and you choose to bow down to it....go right ahead my friend. I am not your judge. God has said NOT TO DO IT but if you know more than Him then go ahead.

Exodus 10:4-5...............
“You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me".


As You stated above:

THAT IS YOUR OPINION! :clap:
 
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Goatee

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That is an absolute untruth!!!!!
I suggest that you find another Catholic web site.


Mary had other children is a Bible fact and not a denominational idea.
Mary had other children which is Bible.
Mary had sex with Joseph after the birth of Jesus.

The Protestant churches point to where the Bible says in Matthew 1:25 that Joseph "had no sexual union with her UNTILL she gave birth to a son Jesus". They take that to mean that after Jesus was born she no longer remained a virgin, and had normal sexual relations with her husband Joseph. The Bible also makes several mentions to Jesus having brothers and sisters (two of who wrote New Testament books).

What you believe about Mary is an absolute untruth and only YOUR OPINION!

Where is the Bible 'fact' Mary bore other children? There is NO FACT. You have been given the excellent evidence posted above that Mary did not have any other children yet you childishly keep bringing up so much untruths and non-facts!

Every time someone brings up indisputable evidence you then counter by posting such uneducated falsehoods!
 
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Goatee

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My dear friend, all you have to do is ask one of the Catholic members of the validity of my comment. They know and they know who said it.

Not only that, all you have to do is go back several pages and it is still there.

I AM NOT YOUR JUDGE. Now you need to stop trying to blame me for quoting Bible verse that make you feel guility. That is NOT ME doing that but the Holy Spirit my dear friend. YOU are making your own choices.

Coins in my pocket or bills in my wallet is not the issue. I do not BOW DOWN TO THEM. That is the difference.

There is no such thing as homeless. There are lazy people who will not work and there are people who are running from the law and trying to evade paying child care, but not homeless. Try something else cause that one will not work.

No such thing as homeless? Really!!!!! :doh:

You call yourself a Christian and you slander the homeless??? :doh:
 
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Goatee

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You've had about a million responses already, so I don't suppose one more is going to make much difference, but here goes.

When I first became Catholic after being a Protestant, the business about Mary went into the "too hard" basket for a while.

However I have a few comments to make, and I'll begin with one by my old PROTESTANT pastor, some years before I became Catholic.

1. His comments, put briefly about (approved) Marian apparitions were "They line up with Scripture", "There's been a lot of them", and "I think they're a judgment on a divided church!" Mary has been giving us some pretty tough warnings, but because the church is divided, a lot of Christians aren't taking any notice.

He also commented on Protestants and Catholics (and bear in mind he was a PROTESTANT pastor), that "When it comes to theology, Protestants couldn't agree how far to spit!"; "Protestants tell a lot of lies about Catholics and the Catholic Church", and
"Protestants are often arrogant about Catholics and the Catholic Church".

Those were his comments.

2. Personal thoughts - When Christ was close to the end on the cross, it's reported that He looked down and saw His Mother, and the "disciple who He loved", traditionally believed to be John. His next words apply to ALL of us, as John stood in as proxy for ALL disciples, whom Jesus loves. Christ essentially told ALL of us to take Mary into our homes as our SPIRITUAL mother, and He told His mother she was the Spiritual Mother of all disciples.

Christ wasn't making that declaration for two people only, any more than His declaration about Peter being the Rock on whom He would found His Church was meant to start and stop with Peter. He was setting up an office, which is still going 2000 years later, and it will continue to endure because Christ was the One who made the declaration. Christ's words are eternal, therefore his intent is eternal.

3. On the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption I think both doctrines are correct. God had a specific woman in mind from the beginning who was going to be the mother of His Son, and He went so far as to send an archangel Gabriel to declare her "full of grace". Otherwise Christ would have inherited a sinful nature from his own mother, and been brought up under the care of a sinful mother.

Ditto the Assumption, and she would not be the first person to have been "assumed". Moses body couldn't be found, and Elijah was taken up into heaven in a chariot drawn by flaming horses. Both Moses and Elijah turned up at the Transfiguration, and nobody else.

This doesn't mean Mary didn't die - it does mean she wasn't allowed to see decay. For some evidence of declared saints not decaying, see the attached link, but they were not the Mother of God in the form of the Son, a singular privilege indeed -

Incorrupt Bodies

4. Finally what is Mary's primary role now, when she's not turning up now and again to give us another warnnig?

I have a Catholic psychiatrist whom I see 2 or 3 times a year, mainly due to depression some time ago, but which has now lifted, so it's mostly a chin wag these days. He's a convert from Protestantism as well. We got talking about this, and his comment was "It took me years to work out where Mary fits into the scheme of things. Basically she intercedes on the behalf of those in Purgatory."

Which brings to mind the closing verse of the "Hail Mary", "... pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death."

It's also noteworthy than whenever exorcisms are carried out by Catholic priests, the one and only person never blasphemed by the demon or demons is Mary. Everyone else is fair game - the victim, the priest, the bishop, even Christ and God. But never Mary.

It seems God holds her in so much respect, He will not allow even the Devil to sully her reputation.

She's more than just a singular Jewish girl who just happened to be at her prayers when the archangel arrived,.

Thank you for posting the above. Said in such a loving and true manner.

God bless you
 
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Goatee

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My dear friend........I suggest that you actually do so Bible homework and stay away from Catholic apologetic websites.

What you just said is ridiculous and totally in error and false.

Everything you spout is in error and false as has been proven again and again in this thread!! :doh:
 
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The gospels do not contain anything unnecessary yet some Protestants insist that Matthew is writing something explicitly stating that Joseph and Mary had sexual intercourse, which has absolutely no bearing on the Gospel. The Greek text of Matthew 1:25 is actually a very concise and economical manner of stating that Jesus' birth was not the result of a sexual union between Joseph and Mary. That is all that is being conveyed. Nothing more.

If you choose to accept Catholic doctrine over Bible doctrine you are welcome to do so. It is of course YOUR choice.

I am able to read the Bible to me, to claim Mary was a perpetual virgin even after Christ was born is to deny the words of the Apostle Matthew, who wrote
in Matt. 1:24-25......
“Then Joseph, being aroused from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord commanded him and took to him his wife, and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name JESUS”.

It seems to me that most of my Catholic friends have removed their ability to read the Scriptures and come to logical conclusions based on the Scriptures. It seems as if they are unable to think for themselves. Please just stop for a moment and think about what God commanded.

Wasn't it God who commanded people to be fruitful and multiply in Genesis 1:28 and twice in Genesis 9, verses 1 and 7. Do all of you just tear those pages out of your Bible and Blindly follow along with what you are told?????

When you read Malachi 2:14–15, and please read it, does it not say to you that one reason for marriage is to have godly offspring?????

Since that is the case and it is the case, then why would Mary be disobedient to God? Since she was truly a godly woman, don't you in your heart think that she would have respected His commands and honor them. Having at least two daughters and five sons as the Scriptures LITERALLY SAY would indeed be fulfilling God’s commands to be fruitful and multiply.

Then, one does not have to be a brain surgeon to do the study of words and languages and their meanings to see that the word “Knew” was a modest way of describing sexual relations in ancient times.

However, if you choose to reject all that and stick with the Catholic's doctrine......go right ahead and do so.
 
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