Baptist Vs Non Denominational: Difference in Teachings?

tampasteve

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Lake Placid? Is that the place where the big alligator ate the cows and all those people????
ahha, the one and only! Funny enough, I have a cousin that lives there too!
 
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JCFantasy23

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Lake Placid? Is that the place where the big alligator ate the cows and all those people????

Ha, loved that movie. Although that particular Lake Placid was set in Maine ;)
 
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tampasteve

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Ha, loved that movie. Although that particular Lake Placid was set in Maine ;)
Yeah, since they got the Olympics they think they are better than our Lake Placid! ;)
 
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Open Heart

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Hi,

So I previously was a member of a Baptist church growing up (which I don't remember much of) now that I am older and maturing in my christianity I have finally found a church that fits It's a non denominational church and I was wondering what are the main differences because I may be speaking out of ignorance but I see very little other then preaching style. Are they teaching different things?
Baptists INSIST on baptism by full immersion. If it's pouring or whatever, they on't accept it as baptism. A Non-denominational church will accept other forms of baptism.
 
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Evan Briggs

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Here is my take on all of this. Gods Word is perfect and is the only truth. And churches sometimes can construe the Word. We all have to do our own studying of the Word.

Instead of us always learning from a preacher or pastor, let's learn from the teacher Himself Jesus Christ.

“Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬
2 Timothy 2:15-16; Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

If we start realizing we may be led astray from the truth by a church, listen to your discernment.

Discernment is a very powerful gift if we use it regularly. As I am still learning just like all of us!

God bless! :)
 
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Major1

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Here is my take on all of this. Gods Word is perfect and is the only truth. And churches sometimes can construe the Word. We all have to do our own studying of the Word.

Instead of us always learning from a preacher or pastor, let's learn from the teacher Himself Jesus Christ.

“Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬
2 Timothy 2:15-16; Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

If we start realizing we may be led astray from the truth by a church, listen to your discernment.

Discernment is a very powerful gift if we use it regularly. As I am still learning just like all of us!

God bless! :)

If you will take a few minutes and read back through the comments that have been made, you will see rather quickly that what you have just said is exactly what I have been saying.

Thanks for agreeing!
 
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DeaconDean

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Baptists INSIST on baptism by full immersion. If it's pouring or whatever, they on't accept it as baptism. A Non-denominational church will accept other forms of baptism.

Just a word here.

The very meaning of the Greek word "baptizo" means to immerse. Not pour, not sprinkle.

"
  1. to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk)

  2. to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one's self, bathe

  3. to overwhelm
βαπτίζω baptízō, bap-tid'-zo; from a derivative of G911; to immerse, submerge; to make whelmed (i.e. fully wet); used only (in the New Testament) of ceremonial ablution, especially (technically) of the ordinance of Christian baptism:—Baptist, baptize, wash."

Strongs, 907

Granted, its splitting hairs, but...

:D

Also, one more thought.

One of the reasons we sometimes ask people to be re-baptized is we (Baptists) believe sometimes it was done for the wrong reasons.

Now if I say this, please don't jump on me. Sometimes, and I realize its very, very rare, but when a "Catholic" crosses denominational lines, we ask for them to be re-baptized.

I've been here long enough to know, debate, and argue with Catholics, and also I in no way lump all in the same group. But, I know Catholicism teaches not only for obedience to the command of Jesus, but because Acts 2:38 says you "in order to" have sins forgiven you have to be baptized.

Baptists believe we are baptized "because" our sins have been forgiven.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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Open Heart

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The very meaning of the Greek word "baptizo" means to immerse. Not pour, not sprinkle.
Thank you. You have made my point regarding Baptists.

Catholics baptize for forgiveness of sins/salvation because THAT is what Scripture says:
Mark 16:16
Acts 2:38
1 Peter 3:21
 
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DeaconDean

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Thank you. You have made my point regarding Baptists.

Catholics baptize for forgiveness of sins/salvation because THAT is what Scripture says:
Mark 16:16
Acts 2:38
1 Peter 3:21


Not to disagree, but I do.

In the first place, Mark 16:16 is highly questionable as to whether it was added after the fact. There are plenty of studies done to show that the language of the Greek in the last nine verse of Mark 16 do not match any of the language prior to it.

In the second place, if you read Mk. 16:16, it adds a condition to salvation. It pits Paul's epistles against Marks.

John the Baptist said repent and believe. Jesus said repent and believe. Paul said repent and believe.

Mark says believe and be baptized. In plain language, John the Baptist, Jesus Christ, Paul said repent + believe = salvation. Mark says believe + baptism = salvation.

Acts 2:38; there is a major disagreement in this.

"Πέτρος δὲ πρὸς αὐτούς, Μετανοήσατε, [φησίν,] καὶ βαπτισθήτω ἕκαστος ὑμῶν ἐπὶ τῷ ὀνόματι Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ εἰς ἄφεσιν τῶν ἁμαρτιῶν ὑμῶν, καὶ λήμψεσθε τὴν δωρεὰν τοῦ ἁγίου πνεύματος: " Acts 2:38 (GNT)

We want to focus on the word "εἰς" this is the one place where the translators got it wrong in my opinion.

"εἰς" here is rendered "for".

Here I turn to B. H. Carroll:

"Matthew 3:11 has a bearing on Acts 2:38. It is the first New Testament use of the verb, baptizo, followed by the preposition, eis, with the accusative case, and is the key passage for unlocking the meaning of Acts 2:38. They stand or fall together, so exact is the parallel. That they do stand or fall together is evident from their exact parallelism. A further evidence that they stand or fall together is found in the fact that both Mark and Luke tie them together: Mark 1:4: "John preached the baptism of repentance" -- eis aphesis halation; Luke 3:3: "He came preaching the baptism of repentance" -- eis aphesin hamartion. Here are two gospels, then, that tie those passages together. And right after them is used Acts 2:38: "Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ" -- eis phesin hamartion. If we then translate Matthew 3:11, "I baptize you with reference to repentance," and "John indeed baptized with the baptism of repentance with reference to the remission of sins," why not here go right on and say, "Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ with reference to the remission of sins?" Remember that in every case we render the preposition in all these conjoined cases (Matthew 3:11; Mark 1:4; Luke 3:3; Acts 2:38) by "unto" in the frequent sense of with reference to. Now that will fit the local context, and it will fit the general context.

The first thing I have to say on Mark 16:16 is that it is very doubtful whether it is a part of the word of God. Certainly if you were in the Vatican library in Rome, and they were to hand you the old Vatican manuscript of the New Testament and you were to read Mark's Gospel you would not find in it the last twelve verses of chapter 16. And if you had before you the Sinaitic manuscript, discovered by Tischendorf, and which is supposed to be the oldest manuscript, you would find that this last paragraph of twelve verses is not in it. On that account I never preach from any part of those twelve verses. I never preach from a passage where it is really questionable as to whether or not it is a part of God's Word, and especially would I not attempt to build up a doctrine on it.

To illustrate the power of the local context in determining the meaning of the Greek preposition, eis (here we have the preposition with the accusative case after it), we now cite most pertinent New Testament examples: Matthew 12:41: "They repented eis the preaching of Jonah." Because eis ordinarily means in order to, must we so render it here? It is a fact, according to chapter 3 of Jonah, and did our Lord so mean it? If so, they failed in the object of their repentance, because Jonah never preached to them after they repented -- not a word. The only preaching he did preceded the repentance, and was the cause of the repentance. Therefore, Dr. Broadus teaches in his Commentary on Matthew that eis here must have its rare meaning - because of. They repented because of, eis, the preaching of Jonah. But they say we must make the ordinary meaning the meaning in every case.

On 1 Peter 3:21 I make this point on the picture of baptism: "Baptism doth now save us." Baptism doth now save us in a figure; baptism doth now save us through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. That is the figure, but baptism does not put away the impurity of the carnal nature -- does not put away the filth of the flesh. These are the four points: (1) Baptism saves us in a figure. (2) That figure is the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. (3) Paul says, "You have been planted in the likeness of his death, so ye shall be in the likeness of his resurrection." Wherever you see a baptism you see a burial and a resurrection. This is not a real salvation, but a pictorial one -- a figure of salvation, and baptism does save us that way, and nobody will deny it. (4) The injury of a good conscience toward God. And the force of this last is: (a) The conscience is bad before it is cleansed, (b) How made good? Hebrew 9:14: "By the blood of Christ." (c) The place of a good conscience - 1 Timothy 1:5 explains."

B. H. Carroll, The Theory of Baptismal Regeneration

Acts 2:38, according to most, says that "in order to" have remission of sins, you must be baptized. I disagree. I was baptized "because" I had received remission of sins.

Sorry, but I disagree on all your points.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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Open Heart

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Sorry, but I disagree on all your points.
First you argue that the end of Mark is not in the oldest manuscript. I'm sympathetic. I really am. However, the version accepted by the Church at Nicea included the end of Mark.

Then you basically use a LOT of words to try to weedle around the obvious meaning of the text. I'll stick with the text.
 
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DeaconDean

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First you argue that the end of Mark is not in the oldest manuscript. I'm sympathetic. I really am. However, the version accepted by the Church at Nicea included the end of Mark.

Then you basically use a LOT of words to try to weedle around the obvious meaning of the text. I'll stick with the text.

I have taken the time myself to examine some of the oldest Greek MSS, and I know that the last nine verse are not in them.

"
Mark 16:9-20
Mark 16:9-20 has been called a later addition to the Gospel of Mark by most New Testament scholars in the past century. The main reason for doubting the authenticity of the ending is that it does not appear in some of the oldest existing witnesses, and it is reported to be absent from many others in ancient times by early writers of the Church. Moreover, the ending has some stylistic features which also suggest that it came from another hand. The Gospel is obviously incomplete without these verses, and so most scholars believe that the final leaf of the original manuscript was lost, and that the ending which appears in English versions today (verses 9-20) was supplied during the second century. Below are some excerpts from various scholarly sources that conclude that the verses are a later addition.

Nevertheless, some scholars have not been impressed with the evidence against these verses, and have maintained that they are original. These scholars have pointed out that the witnesses which bring the verses into question are few, and that the verses are quoted by church Fathers very early, even in the second century. To represent this point of view we give below a long excerpt from F.H.A. Scrivener, together with its footnotes.

The Westminster Study Edition of the Holy Bible (Philadelphia: Westminster Press, 1948).

vv. 9-20. This section is a later addition; the original ending of Mark appears to have been lost. The best and oldest manuscripts of Mark end with ch. 16:8. Two endings were added very early. The shorter reads: "But they reported briefly to those with Peter all that had been commanded them. And afterward Jesus himself sent out through them from the East even to the West the sacred and incorruptible message of eternal salvation." The longer addition appears in English Bibles; its origin is uncertain; a medieval source ascribes it to an elder Ariston (Aristion), perhaps the man whom Papias (c. A.D. 135) calls a disciple of the Lord. It is drawn for the most part from Luke, chapter 24, and from John, chapter 20; there is a possibility that verse 15 may come from Matthew 28:18-20. It is believed that the original ending must have contained an account of the risen Christ's meeting with the disciples in Galilee (chs. 14:28; 16:7).

A Commentary on the Holy Bible, edited by J.R. Dummelow (New York: MacMillan, 1927), pages 732-33.

9-20. Conclusion of the Gospel. One uncial manuscript gives a second termination to the Gospel as follows: 'And they reported all the things that had been commanded them briefly (or immediately) to the companions of Peter. And after this Jesus himself also sent forth by them from the East even unto the West the holy and incorruptible preaching of eternal salvation.'

Internal evidence points definitely to the conclusion that the last twelve verses are not by St. Mark. For, (1) the true conclusion certainly contained a Galilean appearance (Mark 16:7, cp. 14:28), and this does not. (2) The style is that of a bare catalogue of facts, and quite unlike St. Mark's usual wealth of graphic detail. (3) The section contains numerous words and expressions never used by St. Mark. (4) Mark 16:9 makes an abrupt fresh start, and is not continuous with the preceding narrative. (5) Mary Magdalene is spoken of (16:9) as if she had not been mentioned before, although she has just been alluded to twice (15:47, 16:1). (6) The section seems to represent not a primary tradition, such as Peter's, but quite a secondary one, and in particular to be dependent upon the conclusion of St. Matthew, and upon Luke 24:23f.

On the other hand, the section is no casual or unauthorised addition to the Gospel. From the second century onwards, in nearly all manuscripts, versions, and other authorities, it forms an integral part of the Gospel, and it can be shown to have existed, if not in the apostolic, at least in the sub-apostolic age. A certain amount of evidence against it there is (though very little can be shown to be independent of Eusebius the Church historian, 265-340 A.D.), but certainly not enough to justify its rejection, were it not that internal evidence clearly demonstrates that it cannot have proceeded from the hand of St. Mark.

Bruce Metzger, A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament (Stuttgart, 1971), pages 122-126.

16:9-20 The Ending(s) of Mark. Four endings of the Gospel according to Mark are current in the manuscripts. (1) The last twelve verses of the commonly received text of Mark are absent from the two oldest Greek manuscripts (א and B), from the Old Latin codex Bobiensis (it k), the Sinaitic Syriac manuscript, about one hundred Armenian manuscripts, and the two oldest Georgian manuscripts (written A.D. 897 and A.D. 913). Clement of Alexandria and Origen show no knowledge of the existence of these verses; furthermore Eusebius and Jerome attest that the passage was absent from almost all Greek copies of Mark known to them. The original form of the Eusebian sections (drawn up by Ammonius) makes no provision for numbering sections of the text after 16:8. Not a few manuscripts which contain the passage have scribal notes stating that older Greek copies lack it, and in other witnesses the passage is marked with asterisks or obeli, the conventional signs used by copyists to indicate a spurious addition to a document.

(2) Several witnesses, including four uncial Greek manuscripts of the seventh, eighth, and ninth centuries (L Ψ 099 0112), as well as Old Latin k, the margin of the Harelean Syriac, several Sahidic and Bohairic manuscripts, and not a few Ethiopic manuscripts, continue after verse 8 as follows (with trifling variations): "But they reported briefly to Peter and those with him all that they had been told. And after this Jesus himself sent out by means of them, from east to west, the sacred and imperishable proclamation of eternal salvation." All of these witnesses except it k also continue with verses 9-20.

(3) The traditional ending of Mark, so familiar through the AV and other translations of the Textus Receptus, is present in the vast number of witnesses, including A C D K W X Δ Θ Π Ψ 099 0112 f 13 28 33 al. The earliest patristic witnesses to part or all of the long ending are Irenaeus and the Diatessaron. It is not certain whether Justin Martyr was acquainted with the passage; in his Apology (i.45) he includes five words that occur, in a different sequence, in ver. 20. (του λογου του ισχυρου ον απο ιερουσαλημ οι αποστολοι αυτου εξελθοντες πανταχου εκηρυξαν).

(4) In the fourth century the traditional ending also circulated, according to testimony preserved by Jerome, in an expanded form, preserved today in one Greek manuscript. Codex Washingtonianus includes the following after ver. 14: "And they excused themselves, saying, 'This age of lawlessness and unbelief is under Satan, who does not allow the truth and power of God to prevail over the unclean things of the spirits [or, does not allow what lies under the unclean spirits to understand the truth and power of God]. Therefore reveal thy righteousness now — thus they spoke to Christ. And Christ replied to them, 'The term of years of Satan's power has been fulfilled, but other terrible things draw near. And for those who have sinned I was delivered over to death, that they may return to the truth and sin no more, in order that they may inherit the spiritual and incorruptible glory of righteousness which is in heaven.' "

How should the evidence of each of these endings be evaluated? It is obvious that the expanded form of the long ending (4) has no claim to be original. Not only is the external evidence extremely limited, but the expansion contains several non-Markan words and expressions (including ο αιων ουτος, αμαρτανω, απολογεω, αληθινος, υποστρεφω) as well as several that occur nowhere else in the New Testament (δεινος, ορος, προσλεγω). The whole expansion has about it an unmistakable apocryphal flavor. It probably is the work of a second or third century scribe who wished to soften the severe condemnation of the Eleven in 16.14.

The longer ending (3), though current in a variety of witnesses, some of them ancient, must also be judged by internal evidence to be secondary. (a) The vocabulary and style of verses 9-20 are non-Markan. (e.g. απιστεω, βλαπτω, βεβαιοω, επακολουθεω, θεαομαι, μετα ταυτα, πορευομαι, συνεργεω, υστερον are found nowhere else in Mark; and θανασιμον and τοις μετ αυτου γενομενοις, as designations of the disciples, occur only here in the New Testament). (b) The connection between ver. 8 and verses 9-20 is so awkward that it is difficult to believe that the evangelist intended the section to be a continuation of the Gospel. Thus, the subject of ver. 8 is the women, whereas Jesus is the presumed subject in ver. 9; in ver. 9 Mary Magdalene is identified even though she has been mentioned only a few lines before (15.47 and 16.1); the other women of verses 1-8 are now forgotten; the use of αναστας δε and the position of πρωτον are appropriate at the beginning of a comprehensive narrative, but they are ill-suited in a continuation of verses 1-8. In short, all these features indicate that the section was added by someone who knew a form of Mark that ended abruptly with ver. 8 and who wished to supply a more appropriate conclusion. In view of the inconcinnities between verses 1-8 and 9-20, it is unlikely that the long ending was composed ad hoc to fill up an obvious gap; it is more likely that the section was excerpted from another document, dating perhaps from the first half of the second century.

The internal evidence for the shorter ending (2) is decidedly against its being genuine. Besides containing a high percentage of non-Markan words, its rhetorical tone differs totally from the simple style of Mark's Gospel.

Finally it should be observed that the external evidence for the shorter ending (2) resolves itself into additional testimony supporting the omission of verses 9-20. No one who had available as the conclusion of the Second Gospel the twelve verses 9-20, so rich in interesting material, would have deliberately replaced them with four lines of a colorless and generalized summary. Therefore, the documentary evidence supporting (2) should be added to that supporting (1). Thus, on the basis of good external evidence and strong internal considerations it appears that the earliest ascertainable form of the Gospel of Mark ended with 16.8. At the same time, however out of deference to the evident antiquity of the longer ending and its importance in the textual tradition of the Gospel, the Committee decided to include verses 9-20 as part of the text, but to enclose them within double square brackets to indicate that they are the work of an author other than the evangelist.



Bruce Metzger, The Canon of the New Testament: its Origin, Development, and Significance (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1987), pp. 269-270.

... we may find it instructive to consider the attitude of Church Fathers toward variant readings in the text of the New Testament. On the one hand, as far as certain readings involve sensitive points of doctrine, the Fathers customarily alleged that heretics had tampered with the accuracy of the text. On the other hand, however, the question of the canonicity of a document apparently did not arise in connection with discussion of such variant readings, even though they might involve quite considerable sections of text. Today we know that the last twelve verses of the Gospel according to Mark (xvi. 9-20) are absent from the oldest Greek, Latin, Syriac, Coptic, and Armenian manuscripts, and that in other manuscripts asterisks or obeli mark the verses as doubtful or spurious. Eusebius and Jerome, well aware of such variation in the witnesses, discussed which form of text was to be preferred. It is noteworthy, however, that neither Father suggested that one form was canonical and the other was not. Furthermore, the perception that the canon was basically closed did not lead to a slavish fixing of the text of the canonical books. Thus, the category of 'canonical' appears to have been broad enough to include all variant readings (as well as variant renderings in early versions) that emerged during the course of the transmission of the New Testament documents while apostolic tradition was still a living entity, with an intermingling of written and oral forms of that tradition. Already in the second century, for example, the so-called long ending of Mark was known to Justin Martyr and to Tatian, who incorporated it into his Diatesseron. There seems to be good reason, therefore, to conclude that, though external and internal evidence is conclusive against the authenticity of the last twelve verses as coming from the same pen as the rest of the Gospel, the passage ought to be accepted as part of the canonical text of Mark."

Source

upload_2017-7-9_22-34-36.jpeg


God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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Open Heart

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I have taken the time myself to examine some of the oldest Greek MSS, and I know that the last nine verse are not in them.
You don't need to keep repeating. We agree. What I'm saying is the the Church, after Nicea, canonized the Newer manuscripts, complete with the end of Mark. And so all of Mark IS part of our Bible.
 
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DeaconDean

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You don't need to keep repeating. We agree. What I'm saying is the the Church, after Nicea, canonized the Newer manuscripts, complete with the end of Mark. And so all of Mark IS part of our Bible.

You really need to study church history.

The canon of scripture "officially" was not "set" until the Council of Trent. Previous councils agreed on some texts, but it wasn't "official" until 1546.

Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent
The Fourth Session
Celebrated on the eighth day of the month of April, in the year 1546.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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Even among the Early Church Fathers there was disagreement on just which books were accepted and which ones weren't.

Even the Councils the met after Nicea couldn't agree on an "official" canon of scriptures.

"So there was the Council of Laodicea in 363 A. D. It confirmed our New Testament books except Revelation. Then the Council of Damascus at Rome in 383 A. D. recognized our 27 books. The Council of Hippo in 393 A. D. declared our 27 books. The Third Council of Carthage in 397 A. D. declared our books only, our New Testament books as we have them today, as the only books to be read in the churches. The Council of Carthage in 419 A. D. repeated the decision of the Third Council of Carthage and said that our 27 books alone were Scripture."

Source

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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One last thing on Mark 16:9-20.

In existence at the time of the Council of Nicea was the Codex Vaticanus (circa AD 300-325)

Fact: The last nine verses of Mark 16:9-20 are not there.

"Mark 16:9–20; —The Book of Mark ends with verse 16:8, consistent with the Alexandrian text-type."

Source

Nuff said.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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Open Heart

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The canon of scripture "officially" was not "set" until the Council of Trent. Previous councils agreed on some texts, but it wasn't "official" until 1546
You are thinking of the OT canon. Trent only rearticulated the NT canon that was set in the 4th century.
 
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DeaconDean

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You are thinking of the OT canon. Trent only rearticulated the NT canon that was set in the 4th century.

And they included the Apocrypha. Besides that, did you not read what the Council of Laodicea said?

The Council of Laodicea met just 40 years afterwards?!?

And to back what I said:

"The Tridentine decrees [i.e., from the Council of Trent] from which the above list [of books] is extracted was the first infallible and effectually promulgated pronouncement on the Canon, addressed to the Church Universal.”


New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia” (Under “Canon of the Old Testament”)

So what I said was correct.

Sorry.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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