So is the litmus test "who is controlling the object" as to whether or not it's simply a materialistic thing used to reach God versus a demonic implement to be avoided at all costs?
I think the deeper question becomes "is the indwelling Holy Spirit greater than ____"? To which the next question (arguably) is "would Holy Spirit ever lead someone to use such a device?"
In no way am I discounting any of the stories here, in fact I believe them. But for those effected by the outcome, what did they understand about their authority in Christ?
It's a fascinating topic for me, as I know that I have all the power and authority as a believer, and I know I've been told that while I am to exercise that authority over demonic things, I'm not to provoke or be arrogant towards the demonic. I'm guessing participating in defacto or actual witchcraft would be provoking or arrogant - like a rich kid who says "if you touch me, I'll sue". He still gets the bloody nose and there's no lawsuit!
I realize this doesn't necessarily help us walk out our lives like Jesus. Thank you for indulging me and bringing some viewpoints that were absent from my conversation earlier today.
The drum is demonic or the board?
It leads to an entire series of what-ifs?
Obviously the tree was ok before it was crafted into a ouija board, and perhaps the same tree is also crafted into an instrument.
Is the guitar played by Marilyn Manson any more or less Holy than the one played by Chris Tomlin?
I read through much of this thread LowPost, and I think I know what you've been driving at.
Forms of divination were indeed used in both Old and New Testament times (see below for some OT examples), but I would not use this particular means as a Christian, even if the believer were to bind every demonic spirit from interfering in the matter in Jesus' Name, and then pray that the Holy Spirit be the ONLY one to guide their hands.
The reason being it would probably start and absolute firestorm in the spirit realm. That particular means of divination has always been the exclusive territory of the demonic, and they would lay claim to the legal rights to be the ones allowed to respond. The angels assigned by God to protect that believer would then be in for a serious fight over the protection of his (or her) soul.
My best advice to any believer contemplating doing such an unnecessary and spiritually dangerous thing would be to save the angels of God assigned to protect them from any unnecessary wear and tear. Their job is hard enough without the believers they're assigned to making matters even worse, especially when it's foolish and completely unnecessarily. We are called to draw near to God and He will draw near to us. If we obey this command we will then begin hearing His voice ever more clearly, and without the risk of demonic spirits getting involved in the process.
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Some forms of divination used in the Old Testament (Note: I can't say as I would recommend any of these be used by the typical believer today either. Most Christians today are unfortunately so far from God that there's no guarantee they'd be led by the Spirit even if they asked Him to).
From the following link:
Divination and Diviners in the Bible – The Gold Scales
"The Israelites got their various areas to live in assigned by lot - as commanded from above through Moses. [Joshua 14;1-2] Casting of lots is one form of divination. Moses instigated it among the Israelites, and Joshua carried it on.
A garment-like "tool" called ephod was designed to serve as a divining object. It served divination and was specified for Israelite priests and leaders in Exodus 28. "This is to be a lasting ordinance for Aaron and his descendants. [Ex. 28:1-43; 39:2-5 and elsewhere]. [Exodus 28:1-43]
High priests might divine by using the ephod. Judge Samuel wore the ephod when he served before the tabernacle at Shiloh (1 Sam 2:18). The ephod proper (Ex. 28:6-8; 39:2-5) was worn outside the robe. It seems to have been "kept in place by a girdle and by shoulder pieces, from which hung the breast piece (or pouch) containing the sacred lots (divinatory objects), Urim and Thummim, whose precise function is now unknown," writes Encyclopedia Britannica. Thus, the ephod was part of the ceremonial dress of the high priest of ancient Israel. The ephod was also used for oracular purposes, together with the two stones Urim and Thummim. The books of Samuel imply that whenever Saul or David wished to question Yahweh via oracular methods, they asked a priest for the ephod. [
◦More] Joshua, before the Lord, learnt to ask of a stone called Urim, on God's command [Numbers 27:18,20,21].
Samuel wore a linen ephod he used. [1 Samuel 2]
One day King Saul inquired of Yahweh, but Yahweh did not answer him by dreams or [the stone] Urim or prophets. Saul then said to his attendants, "Find me a woman who is a medium." - "Bring up Samuel," he said to her. Samuel, who was dead, rose out of the ground said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up? . . . Tomorrow you and your sons will be with me [that is: dead]." [See 1 Samuel 28:4-19. Extracts]
David took over. "I have become like a portent to many," said he [Psalms 71:6-8]. Once and once again David inquired of the Lord, saying, "Shall I go and attack these Philistines?" Yahweh answered him. When David soon after learned that Saul was plotting against him, he sent for the ephod (divination tool) and got answers to queries from Yahweh thereby [1 Samuel 23] The Lord was asked by divining routines, and sometimes he answered.
At another time David's two wives had been captured. David called on a priest, saying, "Bring me the ephod," and David inquired of the Lord, "Shall I pursue this raiding party? Will I overtake them?" - "Pursue them," was the answer. [1 Samuel 30:1-19]. David repeatedly took to divination as a way of asking the Lord. Later, when David brought up the ark of God to Jerusalem, he was wearing a linen ephod and danced with all his might, leaping and dancing before the Lord, as it says. 2 Samuel 6-14]
To be left without divination appeared to be a serious punishment by God, for according to Micah he said: "Night will come over you, without visions, and darkness, without divination [Micah 3:5-6]
. I know I did so we can only warn those who follow.
