The Wisdom of Selfishness

You want us to be generous in helping animals and forests, but indifferent to helping fellow humans?

ETA: Being less selfish in my own life has been better for me, as well as better for others. I agree with Jesus, I disagree with you and Rand.

Well, I am very much familiar with Ayn Rand's philosophy. I have come to reject it, initially because it made me cynical and depressed. But is selfishness good? Even the apostle Paul told us to exercise discretion when we are helping others by not feeding the lazy or giving until we can't take care of ourselves. (ref 2 Thessalonians 3:10)

But suppose everyone was selfish and had the right to do whatever made them happy? We would still be living in the wild west. One person who enjoys feeding the poor and another who is a serial killers have no moral reason to think one is better than the other. And obviously we believe society gangs up on people who are serial killers like an angry mob, but in today's society we are beginning to see gangs of people attacking the ones who are feeding the poor, like Little Sisters of the Poor.

I'm ultra-simplifying the concept that a society motivated out of self-interest is a dog-eat-dog world. Any Rand obviously doesn't believe this would happen if we could learn to mind our own business, but she was an atheist. The capitalist structure of America which she admired so much was built on the groundwork laid by Christian forfathers like Goerge Washington. Granted, we haven't done everything perfect, and Any Rand is not entirely wrong in many of her observations, but selfless devotion has contributed more to a thriving culture than selfishness has.

Please feel free to write back any thoughts you have. This is a subject I'm well familiar with.

If you're interested in a philosophical attack on selflessness, I would suggest Friedrich Nietzsche over Ayn Rand. She has a terrible reputation amongst philosophers, atheist and religious alike, so it's not just a Christian thing.

I have to disagree that selfishness is better than selflessness. I toyed with a more Nietzschean approach to ethics for a while, and the only thing selfishness does is leave you trapped inside your own head. The only way to be happy like that is to not care about anything at all, and I think that's indistinguishable from hell. (Worth noting: Nietzsche was pretty miserable too.)

That said, an approach towards selflessness that relies upon guilt and coercion isn't exactly ideal either.

cloudyday2 said:

O.k. here is the first thing that comes to mind from my own personal misadventures in altruism. Who knows best what will make me happy - you or me? In many cases I have looked at the lives of others and thought "wouldn't it be nice if I could help them fix this or that problem". Then I might help them in some way, and of course they are appreciative, but the problem doesn't get solved. Why? - because they didn't see this thing as a problem. Maybe you give somebody help that you would have used to make yourself happy and that help just goes into the trash.

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This sounds like maybe you were doing it wrong? I think a general rule of thumb is don't offer help unless it's asked for, or if you can intuitively ascertain that they might need and appreciate help even though for some reason they don't want to ask for it. Otherwise, yes, it could be wasted effort, or worse, actually cause problems.

Love is never without risk. Whenever we love others there is always the risk of hurt and rejection. Jesus loved us so much he died for us.

There is a difference between stupid love and smart love.

Stupid love involves trying to fix people or help people who aren't ready to accept responsibility. That doesn't mean that we can't love them from a distance or be there for them, it's really about healthy boundries for you and them both.

Smart love is recognizing what is healthy. It's about give and take, responsibility and accountability. Smart love is not a door mat nor does it try to change that which doesn't want to change. Smart love recognizes users and abusers and doesn't interweave with them. Part of smart love is knowing who you are, what season you're in and trusting God.

As Christians the Holy Spirit helps guide and direct us in our dealings with others. As I spend time with God and get filled with His love, an energizing love, it becomes a part of who I am to reach out as directed by the Holy Spirit and give that love away. Sometimes I have to sadly look on and pray for what I see. It doesn't mean I have to be personally involved though.

As humans, I think we meddle way too much in the affairs of others. What some might call selfish I see as knowing what is healthy for me.

cloudyday2 said:

I would say my mistake is that I don't say "no". I always try to find a way to give people what they say they want, but often the cost to me far outweighs the benefits to the other person. It makes no sense to give somebody a dollar when the benefit to that person is only a penny. As a depressed person I often have tried to find meaning in life by helping others who do seem to enjoy life. After a while I begin to feel used and spent. If only I had grown-up reading Ayn Rand's selfish ideas instead of the impractical altruistic nonsense of Christianity.

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If you want to deal with Christian values from a completely non-religious perspective, this book may be of interest to you: Spiritual Evolution: How We Are Wired for Faith, Hope, and Love: George Vaillant: 9780767926584: Amazon.com: Books

I think there's a very strong argument that whether altruism does have some transcendental truth value or is merely a quirk of the evolution of the species, it's a requirement for human flourishing. So tossing it out as so much impractical nonsense is a step I'd be wary of.

Your focus is a bit backwards, though--a lot of stuff that's not actually altruism is creeping in if your aim is to find meaning in your own life. I don't think that viewing this type of thing as means towards another end is healthy.

cloudyday2 said:

O.k. here is the first thing that comes to mind from my own personal misadventures in altruism. Who knows best what will make me happy - you or me? In many cases I have looked at the lives of others and thought "wouldn't it be nice if I could help them fix this or that problem". Then I might help them in some way, and of course they are appreciative, but the problem doesn't get solved. Why? - because they didn't see this thing as a problem. Maybe you give somebody help that you would have used to make yourself happy and that help just goes into the trash.

So in most cases overall collective happiness of society will be greater if people pursue their own happiness and let others pursue their own happiness. (There are exceptions of course. A drug addict might benefit from somebody forcibly cleaning him/her up against his/her selfish desires. But in some cases that drug addict might go right back to drugs when freed.)

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Much of what you stated was exactly what the Lord Buddha taught.

Without omniscience, we cannot know truly or fully what will help or harm others. We cannot know the totality of their circumstances, and why or how they arrived at those circumstances in the first place. We cannot know whether our (imposed) "help" will actually make them better or worse off (e.g. they might not learn valuable life lessons and experience personal growth as a result of working out their own circumstances, believing that others will bail them out).

Instead, by 1. understanding our basic drive in life regarding dukkha (discontentment/suffering) 2. understanding how dukkha drives our every action, and 3. by understanding that others are afflicted similarly, we seek to watch after ourselves, by becoming more virtuously perfected in every way. By watching after ourselves, we progressively resolve not only our own dukkha, but also restrain our negative impact upon others and the resulting dukkha they would experience. We serve best as a shining example to others, teaching through example instead of force, allowing others to cultivate the personal development of the eye of wisdom by working things out for themselves.

• "When watching after yourself, you watch after others. When watching after others, you watch after yourself." - Sedaka Sutta SN 47.19
• "[One] endowed with five qualities practices both for his own benefit and for that of others ... [he is] consummate in virtue and encourages others to be consummate in virtue .. concentration ... discernment ... release ... knowledge & vision of release" - Hita Suta AN 5.20 (cf AN 4.99)

cloudyday2 said:

I will add that book to my wish list - thanks. Ultimately every choice is self-interest in some form. Even if I reveal the secret launch codes under torture I have made a choice.

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Have you read any existentialism? I'll have some more recommendations for you if you haven't, since now you're sounding rather like Sartre. I would agree that everything is a choice, and every choice is a matter of self-determination, but I see no reason to conflate that with self-interest.

cloudyday2 said:

EDIT: Or maybe ultimately nothing is a choice and it is all pressures from our environment on a deterministic machine with a delusion of consciousness LOL

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Heh, that worked better before quantum physics came along and broke everything.

i find the best way to help others is to not cause them any problems. that is especially true with friends and loved ones. master yourself first, then you can help others. a lot of 'busy bodies' i know who like to 'help' other people with their problems, can themselves cause those close to them problems by their behavior and attitude. if you love to be altruistic, make sure you make it a 360 degree thing. don't help at the local shelter then go home and be needy to your partner and make them feel guilty.

cloudyday2 said:

I would say my mistake is that I don't say "no". I always try to find a way to give people what they say they want, but often the cost to me far outweighs the benefits to the other person. It makes no sense to give somebody a dollar when the benefit to that person is only a penny. As a depressed person I often have tried to find meaning in life by helping others who do seem to enjoy life. After a while I begin to feel used and spent. If only I had grown-up reading Ayn Rand's selfish ideas instead of the impractical altruistic nonsense of Christianity.

EDIT: Maybe labeling Christianity as "impractical altruistic nonsense" seems extreme, but honestly it seems that way to me. Read the words of Jesus in the gospels. Does Jesus speak of moderation or looking out for yourself? Paul might speak of these things, but Jesus does not as far as I know. Jesus said forgive 7 times 70 times, turn the other cheek, etc. Many of the Orthodox monks followed these teachings. I can't remember the name now, but I recall a particular monk who would never refuse a request - no matter what. Those teachings seem very inspiring, but in practice they don't work. Self-interest is a much more solid foundation for life IMO.

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Christianity's not primarily about you being happy, nor is it primarily about making society better by helping people, even though that's something we should do. It's about repentance (change); changing yourself so that the Kingdom of God can be within you. Part of the change is changing the selfishness we are all naturally inclined to. The effect on others around you is less important than the change within you.

cloudyday2 said:

True. It all comes down to what randomness is metaphysically. It might be that randomness is simply playing events from a script. So from our physical perspective it seems unpredictable but from a metaphysical perspective it is all determined. IDK

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Mmm, I won't claim that I understand quantum physics--all I know is that it tends to invalidate earlier pictures of the free will vs. determinism debate. Apparently it can do so in ways that have some pretty extreme ramifications, though. (I really like the theological implications of the idea that the whole universe has free will.)

But yeah, going by the index, that philosophy book looks like it covers most of the basics pretty well.

cloudyday2 said:

That seems very sensible. BTW I have the book "In the Buddha's Words" that you recommended a while back. I only read the preface, but it looks very helpful for understanding Buddhism. I've been curious over the past few years, but the books I have read left me unsatisfied.

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Bodhi's "In the Buddha's Words" provides an outstanding overview of all of the major elements of early Buddhism. His 23-page booklet "Nourishing the Roots" provides an equally outstanding overview which targets the "what" and "why" of the Buddhist Path of self-development and self-improvement. His 66-page booklet "The Noble Eightfold Path" likewise targets and summarizes in exquisite detail the "how" - how the Path is actually put into practice. All three are part of my very short list of "most favorite books".

cloudyday2 said:

So have you or any of your acquaintances noticed any signs of this Kingdom of Heaven within you? I certainly didn't notice anything while I was a Christian. Of course people would tell me that I wasn't supposed to notice anything LOL. It was working even if I couldn't see any sign of it. Just be patient.................

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One of my big passions is foreign languages, and I flit over to Europe every autumn for some full immersion, and it's the same exact thing. Most of the time you don't notice any improvement at all, and then suddenly you turn around and realize that your comprehension is ten times better than it used to be. And that is a much more concrete, measurable thing than what you guys are talking about. Patience and perseverence are nothing to scoff at.