SDA: Moses Resurrected from the Dead

bbbbbbb · Jul 6, 2017

ViaCrucis said:
Resurrection means no longer being dead.

And that's the thing. The assumption of Moses has nothing to do with Moses being revived from the dead. When Moses was assumed he was still dead.

-CryptoLutheran

Interesting. I had made the apparently erroneous assumption (pardon my pun) that the SDA believed that Moses had been resurrected prior to His assumption. If he was dead when he was assumed into heaven then he would still be in the state of "soul sleep" as taught by the SDA, would he not?

mmksparbud · Jul 6, 2017

ViaCrucis said:
Resurrection means no longer being dead.

And that's the thing. The assumption of Moses has nothing to do with Moses being revived from the dead. When Moses was assumed he was still dead.

-CryptoLutheran

LOL---He was taken to heaven dead??!!!---and you call our believe weird!!!

ViaCrucis · Jul 6, 2017

mmksparbud said:
LOL---He was taken to heaven dead??!!!---and you call our believe weird!!!

Never said I believe in the assumption of Moses. But yes, the notion that Moses was assumed bodily into the heavens isn't that he was raised from the dead, but that after he died, his body was taken by God into the heavens.

-CryptoLutheran

mmksparbud · Jul 6, 2017

ViaCrucis said:
Never said I believe in the assumption of Moses. But yes, the notion that Moses was assumed bodily into the heavens isn't that he was raised from the dead, but that after he died, his body was taken by God into the heavens.

-CryptoLutheran

For what and where does anyone get the idea that God collects dead bodies in heaven???

Dale · Jul 6, 2017

ViaCrucis said:
Ancient tradition indicates at least some Jews believed that Moses, after he had died, had his body assumed into heaven, this tradition of the Assumption of Moses is referenced in the epistle of Jude where he mentions Satan and Michael having a contest over Moses' body.

Note, however, that this doesn't say Moses was resurrected, rather Moses' body was assumed directly into heaven after death.

-CryptoLutheran

Thanks for pointing this out, ViaCrucis.
I wasn't aware of this Jewish tradition.

mmksparbud · Jul 6, 2017

ViaCrucis said:
Ancient tradition indicates at least some Jews believed that Moses, after he had died, had his body assumed into heaven, this tradition of the Assumption of Moses is referenced in the epistle of Jude where he mentions Satan and Michael having a contest over Moses' body.

Note, however, that this doesn't say Moses was resurrected, rather Moses' body was assumed directly into heaven after death.

-CryptoLutheran

It is interesting that it is believed that the assumption of Moses dead body to heaven is a Jewish believe when the bible never mentions an ASSUMPTION. It seems as though that is an assumption made by people to make their own theories more possible. Michael was contending with the devil about the body of Moses---what in the world makes anyone believe that it remained dead??? It is the believe if mist Christian denominations that we go to heaven (or hell) directly after death, but the body remains here----so why would there be any contention about a body if Moses was already in heaven??? He'd get it back at the resurrection so who cares???
A dead body going to heaven, makes no sense whatever.

ViaCrucis · Jul 7, 2017

mmksparbud said:
It is interesting that it is believed that the assumption of Moses dead body to heaven is a Jewish believe when the bible never mentions an ASSUMPTION.

Well, there's the assumption of Elijah, where Elijah was taken up bodily in the chariot of fire while living, that's specifically mentioned in the Bible.

It seems as though that is an assumption made by people to make their own theories more possible. Michael was contending with the devil about the body of Moses---what in the world makes anyone believe that it remained dead???

What makes anyone think that because Jude mentions a contest between Michael and the devil or the body of Moses that it means Moses stopped being dead?

It is the believe if mist Christian denominations that we go to heaven (or hell) directly after death, but the body remains here----so why would there be any contention about a body if Moses was already in heaven??? He'd get it back at the resurrection so who cares???

You're conflating modern ideas of heaven and hell with 2nd temple period Jewish ideas.

A dead body going to heaven, makes no sense whatever.

People 2,000 years ago didn't have the same cosmological perspective that moderns do. Also, 2nd temple period beliefs and ideas aren't the same as modern ideas. In 2nd temple Jewish literature and thought there is usually described seven heavens, the third heaven is often regarded as paradise, and is the location of the tree of life. In the Book of Enoch, for example, Enoch is taken and shown third heaven. St. Paul's mention of knowing a man who was taken into the third heaven and shown mysteries fits directly into this way of thinking.

Note: I'm not saying I believe there are literally seven heavens, or that the tree of life is located there, only that this is what can be seen from the historic record and we can see how these ideas were informative and culturally contextual to things mentioned in the New Testament. Further, no I do not believe the book of Enoch is holy or inspired, and I certainly do not believe it is historically true or that it was written by the biblical Enoch. Again, I'm talking about historical ideas, historical information, etc.

-CryptoLutheran

mmksparbud · Jul 7, 2017

ViaCrucis said:
Well, there's the assumption of Elijah, where Elijah was taken up bodily in the chariot of fire while living, that's specifically mentioned in the Bible.

What makes anyone think that because Jude mentions a contest between Michael and the devil or the body of Moses that it means Moses stopped being dead?

You're conflating modern ideas of heaven and hell with 2nd temple period Jewish ideas.

People 2,000 years ago didn't have the same cosmological perspective that moderns do. Also, 2nd temple period beliefs and ideas aren't the same as modern ideas. In 2nd temple Jewish literature and thought there is usually described seven heavens, the third heaven is often regarded as paradise, and is the location of the tree of life. In the Book of Enoch, for example, Enoch is taken and shown third heaven. St. Paul's mention of knowing a man who was taken into the third heaven and shown mysteries fits directly into this way of thinking.

Note: I'm not saying I believe there are literally seven heavens, or that the tree of life is located there, only that this is what can be seen from the historic record and we can see how these ideas were informative and culturally contextual to things mentioned in the New Testament. Further, no I do not believe the book of Enoch is holy or inspired, and I certainly do not believe it is historically true or that it was written by the biblical Enoch. Again, I'm talking about historical ideas, historical information, etc.

-CryptoLutheran

Elijah was taken up without ever seeing death. Yes, it is stated quite plainly in the bible.

"What makes anyone think that because Jude mentions a contest between Michael and the devil or the body of Moses that it means Moses stopped being dead?"

Because there is no death in heaven---These are the disciples we're talking about, not the general Jewish population. Eternal life is what has been promised the saved. Jude is not making a comment about dead bodies in heaven. There were Jews that did not believe in a resurrection after death, but no one thought that dead bodies went to the presence of God. Death is the result of sin. Death can not enter into the presence of God. Sin can not enter heaven.

ViaCrucis · Jul 7, 2017

mmksparbud said:
Elijah was taken up without ever seeing death. Yes, it is stated quite plainly in the bible.

"What makes anyone think that because Jude mentions a contest between Michael and the devil or the body of Moses that it means Moses stopped being dead?"

Because there is no death in heaven

I think it's important to not try and read whatever ideas you have about the concept of "heaven" back upon ancient people.

These are the disciples we're talking about, not the general Jewish population. Eternal life is what has been promised the saved. Jude is not making a comment about dead bodies in heaven. There were Jews that did not believe in a resurrection after death, but no one thought that dead bodies went to the presence of God. Death is the result of sin. Death can not enter into the presence of God. Sin can not enter heaven.

Jude's allusion to the assumption of Moses is part of larger point--I don't even know if the author of the Epistle of Jude even actually believed in the assumption of Moses, because that's rather peripheral to the point the author is making. But the allusion is to the assumption of Moses, and so it is worth mentioning it and what it would have meant in its historical context.

-CryptoLutheran

mmksparbud · Jul 7, 2017

ViaCrucis said:
I think it's important to not try and read whatever ideas you have about the concept of "heaven" back upon ancient people.

Jude's allusion to the assumption of Moses is part of larger point--I don't even know if the author of the Epistle of Jude even actually believed in the assumption of Moses, because that's rather peripheral to the point the author is making. But the allusion is to the assumption of Moses, and so it is worth mentioning it and what it would have meant in its historical context.

-CryptoLutheran

Be it as it may. It is not, in this case, the ideas of the general public that matters. It is the truth. And the truth is death can not, never, will, never has, entered into the presence of God. Moses dead body did not go into heaven---he was resurrected. It was not a dead body that was with Jesus and Elijah at the transfiguration.

ViaCrucis · Jul 7, 2017

mmksparbud said:
he was resurrected.

And you are welcome to this belief. But this has not been the belief of the Christian Church historically, neither of Judaism before. And so I will disagree: no, Moses was not resurrected. Moses will be resurrected in the future, at the coming of Christ in glory at the end of the age, along with the rest of the dead. Whether Moses was bodily assumed after death into heaven or not is a non-issue from my perspective.

-CryptoLutheran

mmksparbud · Jul 7, 2017

ViaCrucis said:
And you are welcome to this belief. But this has not been the belief of the Christian Church historically, neither of Judaism before. And so I will disagree: no, Moses was not resurrected. Moses will be resurrected in the future, at the coming of Christ in glory at the end of the age, along with the rest of the dead. Whether Moses was bodily assumed after death into heaven or not is a non-issue from my perspective.

-CryptoLutheran

I don't care what the rest of Christianity believes. It is the bible that I go by and Moses and Elijah were at the transfiguration and Moses was quite alive and well. It is not a non issue. It points to the fact that there are no dead bodies in heaven, it is obvious that Moses was at the transfiguration and was not a disembodied spirit that was floating around up there---he was talking with Jesus and Elijah. Both doing quite well.

Dale · Jul 7, 2017

mmksparbud said:
I don't care what the rest of Christianity believes. It is the bible that I go by and Moses and Elijah were at the transfiguration and Moses was quite alive and well. It is not a non issue. It points to the fact that there are no dead bodies in heaven, it is obvious that Moses was at the transfiguration and was not a disembodied spirit that was floating around up there---he was talking with Jesus and Elijah. Both doing quite well.

Mmksparbud,

If we are to take a "resurrection of Moses" seriously, there are great differences between the NT resurrection of Christ and the OT on the death of Moses. In the NT, there are witnesses to the empty tomb. Jesus appears to the Apostles and Disciples, leaving witnesses to His continuing life. There are witnesses to the empty tomb, witnesses to the living Jesus and witnesses to his Ascension. We are left with powerful testimony that Jesus overcame death and that He will return.

There is none of this at the death of Moses at the end of Deuteronomy. No mortal knows where the tomb of Moses is. No one sees him after he passes away. The death of Moses leaves no particular evidence that death can be overcome, or that the state of death is temporary. It is commonly said that the Torah, the first five books of the Bible, contain no mention of eternal life. The death of Moses is no exception to this.

Since there are no witnesses to a resurrected Moses or to Moses ascending into heaven, an OT resurrection of Moses would be an extraordinary miracle that leads to nothing in particular.

ToBeLoved · Jul 7, 2017

mmksparbud said:
Whatever you wish to call it---he was dead. His body was revived from the dead and taken to heaven---We call it a resurrection (3. c above.)--you can call it whatever you wish.

What are your Bible verses (Biblical basis) for that belief?

mmksparbud · Jul 7, 2017

Dale said:
Mmksparbud,

If we are to take a "resurrection of Moses" seriously, there are great differences between the NT resurrection of Christ and the OT on the death of Moses. In the NT, there are witnesses to the empty tomb. Jesus appears to the Apostles and Disciples, leaving witnesses to His continuing life. There are witnesses to the empty tomb, witnesses to the living Jesus and witnesses to his Ascension. We are left with powerful testimony that Jesus overcame death and that He will return.

There is none of this at the death of Moses at the end of Deuteronomy. No mortal knows where the tomb of Moses is. No one sees him after he passes away. The death of Moses leaves no particular evidence that death can be overcome, or that the state of death is temporary. It is commonly said that the Torah, the first five books of the Bible, contain no mention of eternal life. The death of Moses is no exception to this.

Since there are no witnesses to a resurrected Moses or to Moses ascending into heaven, an OT resurrection of Moses would be an extraordinary miracle that leads to nothing in particular.

ToBeLoved said:
What are your Bible verses (Biblical basis) for that belief?

I understand that---but to assume that a dead body was taken to heaven is beyond sound reasoning. It was no dead body at the transfiguration. and Jude is talking about a contention over the body of Moses. Like I said--- what is there to contend about if it was Moses spirit that went to heaven-- there would be no need of his body. I will say both sides are stretching it--- but a dead body in heaven really stretches it as compared to a living body. Satan didn't want him resurrected, that is why there was a contention, Otherwise --- no need of one.
Loved: nothing states that he was resurrected--this is what Jude says
Jud 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Even if EGW were a false prophet beyond doubt-- no way on this earth would I ever believe that Moses was taken to heaven---dead. Elijah at the transfiguration was not a spirit, he was taken bodily, and Moses was no different, he was living. Since there is no death in heaven-- the only thing that could be assumed is Moses was resurrected.

Dale · Jul 7, 2017

mmksparbud said:
I understand that---but to assume that a dead body was taken to heaven is beyond sound reasoning. It was no dead body at the transfiguration. and Jude is talking about a contention over the body of Moses. Like I said--- what is there to contend about if it was Moses spirit that went to heaven-- there would be no need of his body. I will say both sides are stretching it--- but a dead body in heaven really stretches it as compared to a living body. Satan didn't want him resurrected, that is why there was a contention, Otherwise --- no need of one.
Loved: nothing states that he was resurrected--this is what Jude says
Jud 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Even if EGW were a false prophet beyond doubt-- no way on this earth would I ever believe that Moses was taken to heaven---dead. Elijah at the transfiguration was not a spirit, he was taken bodily, and Moses was no different, he was living. Since there is no death in heaven-- the only thing that could be assumed is Moses was resurrected.

You are inserting words into the text of the Bible that aren’t there. Deuteronomy doesn’t say anything about Moses being taken to heaven dead, and it doesn’t say anything about Moses being taken to heaven alive. What it does say is that God buried Moses, or had him buried, and that no mortal knows where the grave of Moses is. The sense of the passage is that God did not intend for the Tomb of Moses to become a ceremonial center.

“He [God] buried him [Moses] in Moab, in the valley opposite Beth Peor, but to this day no one knows where his grave is.”
–Deuteronomy 34: 6 NIV

The word “grave” is in the present tense, not the past tense. The body is still there. Deuteronomy tells us that the body and grave of Moses is out there somewhere but the location is unknown.

6 And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day.
–Deuteronomy 34: 6 KJV

On the passage in Jude:

9 But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, disputed about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a reviling judgment upon him, but said, “The Lord rebuke you.”
–Jude verse 9 RSV

9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
–Jude verse 9 KJV

In the same manner, we should not read too much into this brief mention of a folk tale about the body of Moses in Jude. The main point Jude is making is to recommend civility in religious discussions and to uphold the authority of the Apostles.

Contending for the body of Moses has nothing to do with any supposed resurrection of Moses. According to one ancient version of the story, the Devil wanted to set up the body of Moses as an idol. Michael the archangel simply opposed the Devil’s plan.

Dale · Jul 7, 2017

mmksparbud said:
I understand that---but to assume that a dead body was taken to heaven is beyond sound reasoning. It was no dead body at the transfiguration. and Jude is talking about a contention over the body of Moses. Like I said--- what is there to contend about if it was Moses spirit that went to heaven-- there would be no need of his body. I will say both sides are stretching it--- but a dead body in heaven really stretches it as compared to a living body. Satan didn't want him resurrected, that is why there was a contention, Otherwise --- no need of one.
Loved: nothing states that he was resurrected--this is what Jude says
Jud 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Even if EGW were a false prophet beyond doubt-- no way on this earth would I ever believe that Moses was taken to heaven---dead. Elijah at the transfiguration was not a spirit, he was taken bodily, and Moses was no different, he was living. Since there is no death in heaven-- the only thing that could be assumed is Moses was resurrected.

The Old Testament tells us that Elijah was taken up into Heaven. This is often taken to mean that Elijah became immortal, in the body, when he arrived in Heaven, and that he has been there in the body ever since. The Bible doesn’t tell us whether this is so.

28 About eight days after Jesus said this, he took Peter, John and James with him and went up onto a mountain to pray. 29 As he was praying, the appearance of his face changed, and his clothes became as bright as a flash of lightning. 30 Two men, Moses and Elijah, appeared in glorious splendor, talking with Jesus. 31 They spoke about his departure,[a] which he was about to bring to fulfillment at Jerusalem. 32 Peter and his companions were very sleepy, but when they became fully awake, they saw his glory and the two men standing with him. 33 As the men were leaving Jesus, Peter said to him, “Master, it is good for us to be here. Let us put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.” (He did not know what he was saying.)

34 While he was speaking, a cloud appeared and covered them, and they were afraid as they entered the cloud. 35 A voice came from the cloud, saying, “This is my Son, whom I have chosen; listen to him.” 36 When the voice had spoken, they found that Jesus was alone. The disciples kept this to themselves and did not tell anyone at that time what they had seen.
--Luke 9: 28-36 NIV

Gospel accounts of the Transfiguration do not tell us whether Moses and Elijah were with Jesus in the flesh or whether they were there in spirit. If they were there in the flesh we might expect that they would descend from Heaven, have a conference with Jesus, and ascend back into Heaven. None of this happens. They simply appear and later disappear. This is perfectly consistent with Moses and Elijah being there in spirit form.

Luke tells us that Peter, James and John were “very sleepy,” which might indicate that what they saw is in the nature of a vision rather than an in-the-flesh encounter with heavenly beings.

mmksparbud · Jul 7, 2017

Dale said:
You are inserting words into the text of the Bible that aren’t there. Deuteronomy doesn’t say anything about Moses being taken to heaven dead, and it doesn’t say anything about Moses being taken to heaven alive. What it does say is that God buried Moses, or had him buried, and that no mortal knows where the grave of Moses is. The sense of the passage is that God did not intend for the Tomb of Moses to become a ceremonial center.

“He [God] buried him [Moses] in Moab, in the valley opposite Beth Peor, but to this day no one knows where his grave is.”
–Deuteronomy 34: 6 NIV

The word “grave” is in the present tense, not the past tense. The body is still there. Deuteronomy tells us that the body and grave of Moses is out there somewhere but the location is unknown.

6 And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day.
–Deuteronomy 34: 6 KJV

On the passage in Jude:

9 But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, disputed about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a reviling judgment upon him, but said, “The Lord rebuke you.”
–Jude verse 9 RSV

9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
–Jude verse 9 KJV

In the same manner, we should not read too much into this brief mention of a folk tale about the body of Moses in Jude. The main point Jude is making is to recommend civility in religious discussions and to uphold the authority of the Apostles.

Contending for the body of Moses has nothing to do with any supposed resurrection of Moses. According to one ancient version of the story, the Devil wanted to set up the body of Moses as an idol. Michael the archangel simply opposed the Devil’s plan.

I am not the one that says Moses was taken to heaven dead!!! Other posters here are saying that, they are calling it an "assumption." Again, Moses and Elijah were both at the transfiguration of Jesus---both alive and well.

mmksparbud · Jul 7, 2017

Dale said:
The Old Testament tells us that Elijah was taken up into Heaven. This is often taken to mean that Elijah became immortal, in the body, when he arrived in Heaven, and that he has been there in the body ever since. The Bible doesn’t tell us whether this is so.

28 About eight days after Jesus said this, he took Peter, John and James with him and went up onto a mountain to pray. 29 As he was praying, the appearance of his face changed, and his clothes became as bright as a flash of lightning. 30 Two men, Moses and Elijah, appeared in glorious splendor, talking with Jesus. 31 They spoke about his departure,[a] which he was about to bring to fulfillment at Jerusalem. 32 Peter and his companions were very sleepy, but when they became fully awake, they saw his glory and the two men standing with him. 33 As the men were leaving Jesus, Peter said to him, “Master, it is good for us to be here. Let us put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.” (He did not know what he was saying.)

34 While he was speaking, a cloud appeared and covered them, and they were afraid as they entered the cloud. 35 A voice came from the cloud, saying, “This is my Son, whom I have chosen; listen to him.” 36 When the voice had spoken, they found that Jesus was alone. The disciples kept this to themselves and did not tell anyone at that time what they had seen.
--Luke 9: 28-36 NIV

Gospel accounts of the Transfiguration do not tell us whether Moses and Elijah were with Jesus in the flesh or whether they were there in spirit. If they were there in the flesh we might expect that they would descend from Heaven, have a conference with Jesus, and ascend back into Heaven. None of this happens. They simply appear and later disappear. This is perfectly consistent with Moses and Elijah being there in spirit form.

Luke tells us that Peter, James and John were “very sleepy,” which might indicate that what they saw is in the nature of a vision rather than an in-the-flesh encounter with heavenly beings.

Likewise---there is nothing in scripture that is saying that Moses and Elijah were there in spirit only. There certainly is nothing in scripture to indicate that there are dead bodies in heaven--Elijah was taken into heaven---in bodily form--he did not see death. At the transfiguration there was no need for him to be a spirit--he never died, he was changed as we will be at the resurrection and as Jesus was changed at His resurrection, but He still had a body and ate and drank and had His disciples touch Him to prove it.

Dale · Jul 8, 2017

mmksparbud said:
I am not the one that says Moses was taken to heaven dead!!! Other posters here are saying that, they are calling it an "assumption." Again, Moses and Elijah were both at the transfiguration of Jesus---both alive and well.

Mmksparbud,

I think you are inserting words that aren't in the verse in Deuteronomy.

George Washington isn't taken to heaven in Deuteronomy 34.
Abraham Lincoln isn't taken to heaven in Deuteronomy 34.
Winston Churchill isn't taken to heaven in Deuteronomy 34.
The body of Moses isn't taken to heaven in Deuteronomy 34.
A newly resurrected Moses isn't taken to heaven in Deuteronomy 34.

The soul of Moses may have gone to heaven but I don't think the SDA believe in a soul separate from the body.

The words "ascend," "taken to heaven," "taken up," "taken away," or "taken" don't appear in Deuteronomy 34. There is no choice between the body of Moses or a resurrected Moses being taken to heaven. This is a false choice based on the assumption that somebody or something went to heaven in this chapter.

The words that do appear in Deuteronomy 34 are "buried" and "grave" in the NIV and "buried" and "sepulchre" in the KJV. What happened is a burial and we are left with a grave. There was no resurrection and no ascension.

SDA: Moses Resurrected from the Dead

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