The Double Message of Eternal Security.

Dan61861 said:

Because the bible is very clear, there is only one that is good. God and God alone is good. Our own righteousness is as filthy rags.

In Christ
Daniel

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I am not in disagreement that God alone is good. Jesus said we cannot do anything without Him (John 15:5). So the good works a true genuine believer does is by Christ working in them. The believer cooperates with the good work the Lord desires to work through their hearts and lives. It's why the 24 elders cast down their crowns before Jesus. As for Isaiah 64:6: You have to read the context or the verses prior to it. You cannot rip it out of context. It is saying that they have sinned and their righteous deeds in light of their sins were as filthy rags. Isaiah 64 talks about doing God's righteous ways (See Isaiah 64:4). But again, this would be the Lord working in a person. This would be a believer following God's holy Word. For how can a person's righteousness be their own righteousness if they are following the righteous commands in God's Word? Such commands come from God (unless of course you do not believe the commands come from God or that the Word of God is not inspired by the Lord or something silly). Jesus says, if you will enter into life, keep my commandments (Matthew 19:17). How many today seek to change Jesus's words here because they do not like them. Jesus says abide in me and abide in my words (John 15:7). Are you abiding in His words as He said? Are there consequences in not doing so? Most definitely (John 15:6) (Matthew 25:14-30) (Matthew 25:31-46) (Luke 9:26).


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Dan61861 said:

Let me give you an example. Some went before Christ, saying we did wonderful works in your name, we preformed miracles and cast out demons in your name...

Jesus said to them, I never knew you you worker's of lawlessness.

All of the works they did were good works. Yet, they offered the Lord their works, if you stand in your works you are under the law. Every man is guilty under the law, if you don't keep the whole law you are under the curse of the law. Breaking one commandment is breaking the whole law.

In Christ
Daniel

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Wow! Really? You actually believe that? Well, the real truth is that Jesus said they did not know them because they worked iniquity, sin, lawlessness. Lawelessness is when you are breaking God's laws. 1 John 3:4 says sin is merely transgression of the Law. This is done when one teaches that God's grace is a license to sin on some level. It does not even matter if one is living holy or not. The blood will be on the hands of a person who teaches others a gospel that leads people into sin instead of out of sin. They are working lawlessness by teaching others to minimize God's laws in the fact that they can break them and still live spiritually.

Jesus's point was not as you suggest in Matthew 7.
I see nothing about simply believing on Jesus and minimizing sin as the point Jesus was trying to make here.

#1. Matthew 7:26-27 says he that does not do what Jesus says is likened unto a fool who built his house upon the sand and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house. What words of Jesus are they not doing? They are either not forgiving like in Matthew 6:15, or they are looking upon women in lust like in Matthew 5:28-30 or they are refusing to help the poor like in Matthew 25:31-46.

#2. Matthew 7:21 says not everyone who says unto me Lord, Lord will enter the Kingdom of Heaven but he that does the WILL of the Father. The word "will" is suggestive of an action and not a belief alone. Also, in 1 Thessalonians 4:3 says that the will of God is for you to be holy (or your Sanctification).

#3. Jesus said in Matthew 7:20 that you will know false prophets by their fruits. Fruits are deeds. Jesus says in Matthew 7:18 that a good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit (and vise versa).

15 "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." (Matthew 7:15-20).

So again, this is suggestive of actions and not a belief alone.
For James says faith without works is dead (James 2:17).

Matthew 13:41-42 says that the Son of Man (Jesus) will send forth his angels and gather out of HIS KINGDOM all who offend (sin) and who work iniquity (intense sin or lawlessness) and cast them into the furnace of fire (the Lake of Fire).

In John 12:48 says,
"He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day."

What words of Jesus can judge us on the last day if we do not receive them?
Matthew 25:31-46, Luke 9:26, Matthew 16:24-27.


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Alithis said:

And you ..?do you do God's will?
Do you Do the great commission?
I know on here (cf) we talk a lot about it and corner those that we thing don't quiet talk about right into a false delusion that we have proved something..
But how deceived can we be.
For if we ourselves do not Go and Do what the Lord has told us..then we are hearts and not doers..
And Jesus ..Not I,said such are self deceived.

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Well said. James 1:22 says,
"But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves."


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Now, If some think that James 1:22 is not dealing with salvation, all they need to do is read the verse above it. For it says,

"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

So we are to lay apart all filthiness and receive the word of God that is able to save our souls.
I mean, why else are we to perfect holiness in the fear of God cleansing ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit as 2 Corinthians 7:1 says? Are we to change what God's Word says beyond what it plainly says here?


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Dan61861 said:

Jason, the wages of sin is death. The only sins that do not lead to death are...blessed is the man whom the Lord does not impute sin. The sins that do not lead to death are the sins God has forgiven. Through Christ's passion we are made clean.

In Christ
Daniel

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Well, you are partially right. It is true that that sin not unto spiritual death are sins that are paid for by the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. But these are confessed sins and not sins that are automatically paid for by having a belief alone on Jesus. John starts of his epistle by saying that if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). IF, IF, IF... IF we confess our sins we are forgiven. A person cannot be saved and also be unforgiven.

For if you were to truly read 1 John 5 (without any biased preconceived belief), it says that the fellow brethren are to pray for the person who is commiting a sin NOT unto death so as to give that person LIFE. In your view, this chapter is non-sensical and makes absolutely no sense. Why pray for a person who is forgiven automatically? In view of the light of God's Word, the fellow brethren are praying for a believer who is struggling with sin but they are confessing those sins. The church or the body of Christ is praying so as to give this person LIFE or victory so as to overcome their sin.

Now, some Eternal Security proponents believe this is talking about sins that lead to physical death, but how do the brethren really know which deaths are physical death sins or not so as to pray for them? Again, such a view does not fit naturally in a reading of 1 John 5. Put yourself in the shoes of the believers in 1 John 5.


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Dan61861 said:

First, these are His words...not mine. I am repeating what he has said.

Since you sit in judgement, yes I share the gospel everyday. I visit an elderly facility as well. But I countil it as nothing.

I get on my knees before a Holy God and ask for mercy...I am a sinner. If you had read the thread you would know this.

In Christ
Daniel

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"Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble." (James 2:19).

"And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life" (Revelation 21:27).


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Dan61861 said:

You are confused Jason, I didn't quote gal.

In Christ
Daniel

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Loving your neighbor is the fulfilling of the moral law; This is what is in view in Galatians 5:14 and Romans 13:8-10. There is no passage in Scripture that says that the two greatest commands is the fulfillment of all of the Law. You simply misquoted the Bible, my friend.


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Dan61861 said:

Problem is, Christ's sacrifice isn't sufficient for some.

In Christ
Daniel

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Yes, God's grace does not cover pre-planned evil. God commands all men everywhere to repent (Acts of the Apostles 17:30). Repenting is not acknowleding that we are going to do evil in the future again. God's grace is not a license for immorality (See Jude 1:4) (NIV). The true grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness that we should live sober, righteously, and Godly in this present world (Titus 2:11-12).


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Dan61861 said:

I find it incredible. Jesus who knew no sin, took upon himself our sins. Was beaten, humiliated, spit upon, the skin torn from His body, nail to a tree, crucified for our sakes.

And all some can do is say...hey look at me, I'm righteous.

Incredible

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Not at all. Jesus did not die so that we can remain in our sins, but he died so as to set us free from sin. For Jesus was manifested to destroy the works of the devil (1 John 3:8).

Christ gave himself for church for the express purpose so as to sanctify it with the Word of God and to present to himself a church without spot, wrinkle, holy, and without blemish.

Ephesians 5:25-27 says,
25 "...even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish."

Christ gave himself so that he might redeem us from all iniquity (sin) within our lives and to purify unto himself a peculiar people who are zealous of good works.

Titus 2:14 says,
"Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works."

Hebrews 5:9 says Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all who OBEY Him. One is not obeying Jesus is they say they are also a sinner or sinning, too.

Romans 13:14 says put on the Lord Jesus Christ so as to not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

In other words, Jesus can not only forgive us of our past sins if we truly ask with a Godly sorrow, but Jesus can also help us to overcome our sin, too.

For Jesus came to set the captives free.


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Dan61861 said:

Pride Jason...the devil and his children are self righteous.

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Well, this is really is not a loving and respectful response to the verse in Revelation I put forth, my friend. It says in Revelation that those who WORK abomination (sin) will not enter the holy city of New Jerusalem on the New Earth. I really do not see how OSAS or a sin and still be saved gospel works with this verse in Revelation.

As for your reference to the evil one:
1 John 3:8 says he that commits sin is of the devil.
John 3:20 says all who do evil hate the light unless their deeds should be reproved.
1 John 3:10 says, "In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."


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Dan61861 said:

Stuart, you said something the other day. How sin seers the conscience of a Christian. It is so very true. The Lord said blessed are those that mourn. Everyone mourns, yet a Christian mourns due to sin.

In Christ
Daniel

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Sin sears the conscience like a hot iron. Meaning the more a person sins the more they lose their moral compass and do not know right from wrong anymore. They will think it is normal to rationalize in doing evil. That is what it is talking about. One can feel sorry about their sin but if the proper corrective action is not taken with the Lord, then their sorrow is useless. Judas was sorry about his sin but he hanged himself instead of repenting.

2 Timothy 3:1-9 says,

1 "This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was."


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Dan61861 said:

Jason, if you message was....God for bid any of us sin and if we do we have an advocate in heaven in Christ. I would have no problem with that.

God forbid any of us sin.

But, that isn't your doctrine

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Well, I am not against a believer struggling with sin. Scripture talks about this in 1 John 2:1 and 1 John 1:9 and the Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee (Luke 18:9-14). Scriptures says we are to pray and help the believer who honestly struggles with sin so that they can overcome their sin (1 John 5). But this is generally for the new believer and not mature believers who have walked in the power of the Lord's strength and might. Believers learn to overcome sin in this life and they do not seek to justify God's grace as a license to sin. God has more power over any man's sin nature. But man prefers his sin so he makes excuses to remain in them (and ignores God and His Word).


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ToBeLoved said:

The term spiritual death is to die spiritually, so you are saying spiritual death is to be not saved, right?

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What else would it mean?
When God told Adam that if he ate of the tree, he would die that very day (Genesis 2:17). But Adam did not die physically, though. This means Adam died spiritually and fell out of favor with God and he needed to be reconciled back to the Lord so as to be saved. Otherwise we would not need a coming Savior.

You said:

So, in your own words you are unsaved every time you sin, which gives you no assurance in Christ what so ever and would mean that probably every time we interact with you, you are on your way to H E double-toothpick, correct?

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When a believer sins, they are drawn away by their own lusts and desires away from God. God hates sin, so he will not be party to a person who sins. But God loves us, so He provided a way to not only forgive us of our past sins, but He made a way through Him to help us to overcome our sin so one would not bounce back and forth every day sinning and repenting, sinning and repenting in some kind of endless get dirty and then get clean wash cycle.

While God's grace is there for a person who does honestly struggle with sin (especially for new believers), believers will in time mature and overcome their sin.

A person who abides in Christ cannot sin while they are abiding in Him and His good ways. When a person is drawn away by sin, it is because of their own lust (with God not being present with them in their evil choice).

But with Jesus, a person can crucify the affections and lusts (See Galatians 5:24, Romans 13:14).


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