Is God Sovereign Over All Things?

PeaceB said:

I find it interesting that you cannot fathom that God is in control of the world yet gives his creatures the freedom to choose among A, B, and C.

Is God incapable of creating creatures with that capacity?

Click to expand...

YHWH gives men the desire to choose to seek and to obey Him, when they have any desire to seek and to obey Him,
and YHWH gives men all that is required, to do so,
but
most all men still refuse to obey Him, and many decide instead to follow other men, opposed to YHWH.

Hammster said:

I think His creatures are free to choose between A B and C.

Click to expand...

Consider this example, as poor as it may be:

IN active combat, does the Commanding Officer tell a soldier "You there, you go straight ahead, OR if you want, go to the right , OR if you want, go to the left..... " ... ???

@OP. Yes. Not a dumb question, though...but voted yes.

Christodoulos said:

This is not Bible:

Click to expand...

You are welcome to tell us, with scripture, why you don't think these items are "Bible". Of course, they are not actual quotes of the Bible. But I will offer why I find them to be biblical, though not exact quotes. You have not actually said they are un-Biblical, plus you have not given any scripture why you claim they are un-Biblical; so may be you want me to give scripture for what I have offered >

I said:

Before physical creation, our Father was with His Son Jesus.

Click to expand...

John 17:5

So, yes Jesus was with our Father "before the world was."

and said:

And then was when He destined that He would have many more children who are like His own Son Jesus.

Click to expand...

We already have been offered Romans 8:29 which says God predestined us to be conformed to the image of Jesus, "that He might be the firstborn among many brethren."

This is why I offered that God wants to have many children who are like Jesus > if He wants us to be conformed to the image of Jesus, then I would say He does desire to have many children who are like Jesus, and Romans 8:29 clearly confirms this, I would say.

And Hebrews 12:7-11 supports that God's correction changes us so we become like Jesus > making us "partakers of His holiness" in His love's "peaceable fruit of righteousness". And His love in us perfects us so that > "as He is, so are we in this world." (in 1 John 4:17)

And our Apostle Paul says God chose us "in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love," in Ephesians 1:4. So, this is God's focus of predestination and His all-control, I consider, from this scripture and Romans 8:29

And thank You, God, that You have such good which You desire for us.

@jimmyjimmy Therefore, Jimmy Jimmy I think God knows He is in control, if He could plan before creation to produce many children who are like Jesus. He certainly does not indicate in His word that He is worried that evil will stop Him from succeeding in us, like this. We, of course, know our failures so we can feel we can't become like Jesus; but God clearly commands for us to become loving like He is, including Ephesians 5:1-2, plus He makes it clear how we of our own selves do not have what it takes > 2 Corinthians 3:4-5. But He is able > Luke 18:27. So we need to not excuse less

And . . . again . . . Paul says God did this choosing before the world was founded. So, it is scriptural to believe Jesus was with our Father before the world was created, I offer

and said:

I see how our Father so loved His own Son, and was so pleased with Him, that in this love He destined that He would have many more like Jesus.

Click to expand...

Our Father does so love His own Son, Jesus >

"'The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand.'" (John 3:35)

Included in giving all things to Jesus is that our Father desires to give His own Son Jesus "many brethren" who are conformed to His image, as I think it is reasonable to understand that Romans 8:29 indicates.

And the Bible is clear how Jesus is so pleasing to our Father, and how our Apostle Paul commands us to also love like Jesus does > and to be "a sweet-smelling aroma" like Jesus was being on the cross >

"And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma." (Ephesians 5:2)

And our Apostle Paul does say we are sweet-smelling to God > 2 Corinthians 2:14-15 >

@jimmyjimmy So, Jimmy Jimmy If God is able to lead us in triumph "always" in the fragrance of Jesus (in 2 Corinthians 2:14-15), right in this evil world, then God certainly does have control.

So, yes, our Father desires to have many children who are fragrantly pleasing to Him like His own Son Jesus is. And I think it is reasonable to conclude, then, that before the earth was, already our Father desired to have many children like Jesus.

And so there is no excuse to keep on being smelly in complaining and arguing stuff > Philippians 2:14-16 clearly shows how our Father expects us, instead, to "become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation"; plus, God is easily able in His all-controlling almighty power of grace (2 Corinthians 12:9) to correct (Hebrews 12:7-11) and cure (1 John 4:17, Galatians 2:20, Galatians 4:19) us to do all His word means by this (Isaiah 55:11)

and said:

And with this motivation He created all the universe as His place to have and bring up children who are like Jesus.

Click to expand...

I have offered scriptures where I am coming from, for this

and said:

All this universe is an expression of His love for Jesus, and this is His place to adopt us and bring us up.

Click to expand...

"All things were created through Him and for Him." (in Colossians 1:16)

If our Father loves Jesus and created all things "for Him", I think it is reasonable that this is because our Father loves Jesus. And again I offer >

"'The Father loves the son, and has given all things into His hand.'" (John 3:35)

And . . . this earth is where God has been adopting people to become children of God. You might consider Romans 8:15. But, of course, @Christodoulos you did not actually say anything I offer is not "biblical", but you wrote "not Bible". And yes I have not written only exact quotes of the Bible, in what I shared. But I offer I have scriptures in mind for what I offer

and said:

This is His priority > not only defeating evil or prospering us, but first is to conform us to Jesus, since this will last"

Click to expand...

Well, it is God's plan to conform us to Jesus, as I have offered that scripture very clearly does say. And what I mean is that defeating evil, alone, does not accomplish this, nor does prospering us; so it is clear to me, how most of all God is about what actually will conform us to Jesus. This is His priority.

And removing physical evil will only change the present earth. But then this earth will not last, but we will have the new earth > Romans 8:20-21 > and the new earth will be in "the glorious liberty of the children of God," Paul says in this scripture. But from the scripture I have read, it appears that we will be changed into resurrectional glory first, since we are our Father's priority.

↑ Deadworm: "No, God micro-manages neither the laws of nature nor free will. At creation God brought order out of chaos, but He does not control the forces of chaos. Hence, devastating tornados, hurricans, earthquakes, tidal waves, volcanic eruptions, etc.

Christodoulos: you joking, right?"

Deadworm: "Let's get this straight: you actually believe that God wanted to punish New Orleans and other Gulf states by allowing Hurricane Katrina to cause an estimated death toll of 1,833 lives, plus massive property damage, loss of homes, etc.? Are YOU joking?"

What is it about Ecclesiastes 9:11 that you don't understand? "All are victims of time and chance." And how do you explain all the OT examples of God "repenting" and expressing regret for tragedies?

Hammster said:

I think His creatures are free to choose between A B and C.

Click to expand...

Good. And I think God is sovereign over all things.

jimmyjimmy said:

And, D. I often choose, D.

Click to expand...

But not when it comes to choosing thread topics, apparently.

Hammster said:

If He had no control, why would He repent?

Click to expand...

On the contrary, divine repentance implies a lack of control and a profound divine desire for a different outcome. You seem to be mistaking the claim that God does not micro-manage the laws of the universe with the claim that God exercises no providential input on the course of global history. Clearly, God hears and answers prayer and has plans for salvation history. The neglected issue is how to reconcile this fact with the fact that God does not micro-manage natural disasters, etc. Or do you actually believe that God wanted all the deaths and unfair suffering caused by such natural disasters? Again, posters continually duck the significance of Ecclesiastes 9:11: "All are victims of time and CHANCE."

Deadworm said:

No, God micro-manages neither the laws of nature nor free will. At creation God brought order out of chaos, but He does not control the forces of chaos. Hence, devastating tornados, hurricans, earthquakes, tidal waves, volcanic eruptions, etc.:

"All are victims of time and chance (Ecclesiastes 9:11)."

Click to expand...

Let me pursue this a little further, so that what you say is clear. Are you saying that God CANNOT control the forces of chaos, to the point of causing all chaos to cease to exist permanently in an instant? Or are you just saying that he can but chooses not to - thus "does not control" in the same sense that he does not grant the desired outcome of every prayer?

Which do you mean?

Deadworm said:

Or do you actually believe that God wanted all the deaths and unfair suffering caused by such natural disasters?

Click to expand...

God kills everybody.

Bible verse grenade toss in progress.

Deadworm said:

↑ Deadworm: "No, God micro-manages neither the laws of nature nor free will. At creation God brought order out of chaos, but He does not control the forces of chaos. Hence, devastating tornados, hurricans, earthquakes, tidal waves, volcanic eruptions, etc.

Christodoulos: you joking, right?"

Deadworm: "Let's get this straight: you actually believe that God wanted to punish New Orleans and other Gulf states by allowing Hurricane Katrina to cause an estimated death toll of 1,833 lives, plus massive property damage, loss of homes, etc.? Are YOU joking?"

What is it about Ecclesiastes 9:11 that you don't understand? "All are victims of time and chance." And how do you explain all the OT examples of God "repenting" and expressing regret for tragedies?

Click to expand...

You obviously don't understand the Bible, nor the God of the Bible. "He does not control"? If you are right, then God cannot be God! God has and does do AS HE PLEASES, and that includes wiping out complete nations that are against Him. Read Amos 3:6, "Is a trumpet blown in a city, and the people are not afraid? Does disaster come to a city, unless the LORD has done it?" Don't let your human "logic" try to determine how God works. His ways are HIGHER than ours, and they are PERFECT in ALL that He does. "
Also read Numbers 23:19, "“God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent. Has He said, and will He not do? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?"

God does NOT "repent" as we do when we make a mistake are are "sorry" for our actions. The Hebrew word "nacham", literally means "be sorry, moved to pity, have compassion, for others". That is the key to understanding what it means that God "repents", that He "feels sorry for us sinners", and has pity on us. Jeremiah 18:7-10 puts it very well: " If at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, and if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I intended to do to it. And if at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it, and if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will relent of the good that I had intended to do to it". The Lord has determined what He will do and how He will respond with nations and people who obey and disobey Him. All of which fall into His perfect plans, and have nothing to do with God changing His mind because He makes mistakes! Your understanding of Ecclesiastes 9:11, is faulty.

Vicomte13 said:

God kills everybody.

Click to expand...

In what sense?

com7fy8 said:

You are welcome to tell us, with scripture, why you don't think these items are "Bible". Of course, they are not actual quotes of the Bible. But I will offer why I find them to be biblical, though not exact quotes. You have not actually said they are un-Biblical, plus you have not given any scripture why you claim they are un-Biblical; so may be you want me to give scripture for what I have offered >

John 17:5

So, yes Jesus was with our Father "before the world was."

We already have been offered Romans 8:29 which says God predestined us to be conformed to the image of Jesus, "that He might be the firstborn among many brethren."

This is why I offered that God wants to have many children who are like Jesus > if He wants us to be conformed to the image of Jesus, then I would say He does desire to have many children who are like Jesus, and Romans 8:29 clearly confirms this, I would say.

And Hebrews 12:7-11 supports that God's correction changes us so we become like Jesus > making us "partakers of His holiness" in His love's "peaceable fruit of righteousness". And His love in us perfects us so that > "as He is, so are we in this world." (in 1 John 4:17)

And our Apostle Paul says God chose us "in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love," in Ephesians 1:4. So, this is God's focus of predestination and His all-control, I consider, from this scripture and Romans 8:29

And thank You, God, that You have such good which You desire for us.

@jimmyjimmy Therefore, Jimmy Jimmy I think God knows He is in control, if He could plan before creation to produce many children who are like Jesus. He certainly does not indicate in His word that He is worried that evil will stop Him from succeeding in us, like this. We, of course, know our failures so we can feel we can't become like Jesus; but God clearly commands for us to become loving like He is, including Ephesians 5:1-2, plus He makes it clear how we of our own selves do not have what it takes > 2 Corinthians 3:4-5. But He is able > Luke 18:27. So we need to not excuse less

And . . . again . . . Paul says God did this choosing before the world was founded. So, it is scriptural to believe Jesus was with our Father before the world was created, I offer

Our Father does so love His own Son, Jesus >

"'The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand.'" (John 3:35)

Included in giving all things to Jesus is that our Father desires to give His own Son Jesus "many brethren" who are conformed to His image, as I think it is reasonable to understand that Romans 8:29 indicates.

And the Bible is clear how Jesus is so pleasing to our Father, and how our Apostle Paul commands us to also love like Jesus does > and to be "a sweet-smelling aroma" like Jesus was being on the cross >

"And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma." (Ephesians 5:2)

And our Apostle Paul does say we are sweet-smelling to God > 2 Corinthians 2:14-15 >

@jimmyjimmy So, Jimmy Jimmy If God is able to lead us in triumph "always" in the fragrance of Jesus (in 2 Corinthians 2:14-15), right in this evil world, then God certainly does have control.

So, yes, our Father desires to have many children who are fragrantly pleasing to Him like His own Son Jesus is. And I think it is reasonable to conclude, then, that before the earth was, already our Father desired to have many children like Jesus.

And so there is no excuse to keep on being smelly in complaining and arguing stuff > Philippians 2:14-16 clearly shows how our Father expects us, instead, to "become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation"; plus, God is easily able in His all-controlling almighty power of grace (2 Corinthians 12:9) to correct (Hebrews 12:7-11) and cure (1 John 4:17, Galatians 2:20, Galatians 4:19) us to do all His word means by this (Isaiah 55:11)

I have offered scriptures where I am coming from, for this

"All things were created through Him and for Him." (in Colossians 1:16)

If our Father loves Jesus and created all things "for Him", I think it is reasonable that this is because our Father loves Jesus. And again I offer >

"'The Father loves the son, and has given all things into His hand.'" (John 3:35)

And . . . this earth is where God has been adopting people to become children of God. You might consider Romans 8:15. But, of course, @Christodoulos you did not actually say anything I offer is not "biblical", but you wrote "not Bible". And yes I have not written only exact quotes of the Bible, in what I shared. But I offer I have scriptures in mind for what I offer

Well, it is God's plan to conform us to Jesus, as I have offered that scripture very clearly does say. And what I mean is that defeating evil, alone, does not accomplish this, nor does prospering us; so it is clear to me, how most of all God is about what actually will conform us to Jesus. This is His priority.

And removing physical evil will only change the present earth. But then this earth will not last, but we will have the new earth > Romans 8:20-21 > and the new earth will be in "the glorious liberty of the children of God," Paul says in this scripture. But from the scripture I have read, it appears that we will be changed into resurrectional glory first, since we are our Father's priority.

Click to expand...

This really says it all where you have a complete misunderstanding of the God of the Bible:

"And with this motivation He created all the universe as His place to have and bring up children who are like Jesus."

Where in the Bible do you get this nonsense? God "motivated"? Good grief, He is NOT a human being! Unless you really don't know, Jesus Christ HIMSELF is also the Creator of the entire universe, as is the Holy Spirit! Jesus Christ is not some secondary deity, who is inferior to the Father, but is in all ways COEQUAL to the Father.

Vicomte13 said:

God kills everybody.

Click to expand...

I think this thread has lost the plot! there are too many cranks coming on here saying things that are not even from the Holy Bible, and they pretend to be "christians"