What is predestination? Is predestination biblical?

Quasar92 · Jul 1, 2017

Romans 8:29-30 tells us, “For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.” Ephesians 1:5 and 11 declare, “He predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will…In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will.” Many people have a strong hostility to the doctrine of predestination. However, predestination is a biblical doctrine. The key is understanding what predestination means, biblically.

The words translated “predestined” in the Scriptures referenced above are from the Greek word proorizo, which carries the meaning of “determine beforehand,” “ordain,” “to decide upon ahead of time.” So, predestination is God determining certain things to occur ahead of time. What did God determine ahead of time? According to Romans 8:29-30, God predetermined that certain individuals would be conformed to the likeness of His Son, be called, justified, and glorified. Essentially, God predetermines that certain individuals will be saved. Numerous scriptures refer to believers in Christ being chosen (Matthew 24:22, 31; Mark 13:20, 27; Romans 8:33, 9:11, 11:5-7, 28; Ephesians 1:11; Colossians 3:12; 1 Thessalonians 1:4; 1 Timothy 5:21; 2 Timothy 2:10; Titus 1:1; 1 Peter 1:1-2, 2:9; 2 Peter 1:10). Predestination is the biblical doctrine that God in His sovereignty chooses certain individuals to be saved.

The most common objection to the doctrine of predestination is that it is unfair. Why would God choose certain individuals and not others? The important thing to remember is that no one deserves to be saved. We have all sinned (Romans 3:23), and are all worthy of eternal punishment (Romans 6:23). As a result, God would be perfectly just in allowing all of us to spend eternity in hell. However, God chooses to save some of us. He is not being unfair to those who are not chosen, because they are receiving what they deserve. God’s choosing to be gracious to some is not unfair to the others. No one deserves anything from God; therefore, no one can object if he does not receive anything from God. An illustration would be a man randomly handing out money to five people in a crowd of twenty. Would the fifteen people who did not receive money be upset? Probably so. Do they have a right to be upset? No, they do not. Why? Because the man did not owe anyone money. He simply decided to be gracious to some.

If God is choosing who is saved, doesn’t that undermine our free will to choose and believe in Christ? The Bible says that we have the choice—all who believe in Jesus Christ will be saved (John 3:16; Romans 10:9-10). The Bible never describes God rejecting anyone who believes in Him or turning away anyone who is seeking Him (Deuteronomy 4:29). Somehow, in the mystery of God, predestination works hand-in-hand with a person being drawn by God (John 6:44) and believing unto salvation (Romans 1:16). God predestines who will be saved, and we must choose Christ in order to be saved. Both facts are equally true. Romans 11:33 proclaims, “Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!”

Recommended Resources: Evangelism and the Sovereignty of God by J.I. Packer and Logos Bible Software.

Quasar92

sdowney717 · Jul 1, 2017

The question of why some believe is purely that God chooses to regenerate some and teach to them His ways and they will then come to Christ in belief and be saved and sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the Day of redemption. refer to John 6

Christ chooses actively to whom He will reveal Himself as the Christ, and the others will remain in ignorance, due to the blinding of their minds by the god of this world, Satan.
God also sovereignly hardens and blinds whomever he will.
All men must come to Christ by divine revelation. God allows none to figure out who Christ is without His aid.
John 12, God blinding people
37 But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him, 38 that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke:

“Lord, who has believed our report?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”

39 Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again:

40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts,
Lest they should see with their eyes,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.”

41 These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory and spoke of Him.

2 Corinthians 4, Satan blinding people

3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. 5 For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus’ sake. 6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Luke 10, Christ choosing to whom He will reveal Himself so that they know Him as Lord and Savior. Christ must actively will it to be so, otherwise Christ and the Father are hidden from their eyes..they will never know them.

21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight. 22 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.”

TheSeabass · Jul 1, 2017

Calvinistic predestination is NOT biblical for it puts culpability upon God for the lost when He has no such culpability. Instead God chose and foreknew a GROUP would be saved and each man chooses to be in the group or not putting culpability, responsibility, accountability upon man. Calvinism attempts to put the responsibility and accountability that God put upon man back upon God.

sdowney717 · Jul 2, 2017

TheSeabass said:
Calvinistic predestination is NOT biblical for it puts culpability upon God for the lost when He has no such culpability. Instead God chose and foreknew a GROUP would be saved and each man chooses to be in the group or not putting culpability, responsibility, accountability upon man. Calvinism attempts to put the responsibility and accountability that God put upon man back upon God.

Why don't you just read and then believe the scriptures?
Your believing in a man taught philosophy about the scriptures.

When your read this from the AMPC, how does it make you feel?

4 Even as [in His love] He chose us [actually picked us out for Himself as His own] in Christ before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy (consecrated and set apart for Him) and blameless in His sight, even above reproach, before Him in love.

5 For He foreordained us (destined us, planned in love for us) to be adopted (revealed) as His own children through Jesus Christ, in accordance with the purpose of His will [because it pleased Him and was His kind intent]—

6 [So that we might be] to the praise and the commendation of His glorious grace (favor and mercy), which He so freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

def · Jul 4, 2017

sdowney717 said:
Why don't you just read and then believe the scriptures?
Your believing in a man taught philosophy about the scriptures.

When your read this from the AMPC, how does it make you feel?

4 Even as [in His love] He chose us [actually picked us out for Himself as His own] in Christ before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy (consecrated and set apart for Him) and blameless in His sight, even above reproach, before Him in love.

5 For He foreordained us (destined us, planned in love for us) to be adopted (revealed) as His own children through Jesus Christ, in accordance with the purpose of His will [because it pleased Him and was His kind intent]—

6 [So that we might be] to the praise and the commendation of His glorious grace (favor and mercy), which He so freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

Chose has more than one meaning; to "pick us out" is one, but could also mean prefer, desire, or plan,for example, I chose to go out today.

Paul said He chose us in Christ, and the "in Christ" suggests there is a plan to do something in Christ. If the supplementary information is removed, the sentence becomes: He chose us in Christ to be holy and blameless; it means God planned to make us holy and blameless through Christ.

Your previous post mentioned that the god of this age is Satan, I think "god of this age" refers to the things people worship such as money, power, lust, etc. People are blinded by money, power, sexual desires, etc.

sdowney717 · Jul 4, 2017

def said:
Chose has more than one meaning; to "pick us out" is one, but could also mean prefer, desire, or plan,for example, I chose to go out today.

Paul said He chose us in Christ, and the "in Christ" suggests there is a plan to do something in Christ. If the supplementary information is removed, the sentence becomes: He chose us in Christ to be holy and blameless; it means God planned to make us holy and blameless through Christ.

Your previous post mentioned that the god of this age is Satan, I think "god of this age" refers to the things people worship such as money, power, lust, etc. People are blinded by money, power, sexual desires, etc.

Satan holds the world under his sway.
Believers in Christ are not of this world, we are of God, not of Satan. We live here for a short time in the world, but we are sojourners, the world is not our home.

1 John 5 for context.
18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.

19 We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.

John 8:42
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me.
John 8:47
He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”
How is Satan god of this world (2 Corinthians 4:4)?

def · Jul 4, 2017

sdowney717 said:
Satan holds the world under his sway.
Believers in Christ are not of this world, we are of God, not of Satan. We live here for a short time in the world, but we are sojourners, the world is not our home.

1 John 5 for context.
18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.

19 We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.

John 8:42
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me.
John 8:47
He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”
How is Satan god of this world (2 Corinthians 4:4)?

1 Jn 5:19 KJV .. the whole world lies in wickedness.

sdowney717 · Jul 4, 2017

def said:
1 Jn 5:19 KJV .. the whole world lies in wickedness.

Satan is the wicked one, those words are referencing the devil.
Matthew 13:19
When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside.

def · Jul 4, 2017

Those who hear the word of the kingdom, are they believers?

TheSeabass · Jul 5, 2017

sdowney717 said:
Why don't you just read and then believe the scriptures?
Your believing in a man taught philosophy about the scriptures.

When your read this from the AMPC, how does it make you feel?

4 Even as [in His love] He chose us [actually picked us out for Himself as His own] in Christ before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy (consecrated and set apart for Him) and blameless in His sight, even above reproach, before Him in love.

5 For He foreordained us (destined us, planned in love for us) to be adopted (revealed) as His own children through Jesus Christ, in accordance with the purpose of His will [because it pleased Him and was His kind intent]—

6 [So that we might be] to the praise and the commendation of His glorious grace (favor and mercy), which He so freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

The plural pronoun "us" refers to the GROUP that Paul, those Ephesians and anyone else who has obeyed the gospel all belong to... that GROUP called "Christian".

He chose "us". Where? "In Christ". So no individual is of the foreknown elect unconditionally. To be of the foreknown elect one must conditionally be in Christ and one must be in the GROUP to be in Christ. This is why there is no such thing in the NT as an individual unconditionally saved APART from the GROUP for it the GROUP that is saved and not the individual apart from the group.

sdowney717 · Jul 5, 2017

TheSeabass said:
The plural pronoun "us" refers to the GROUP that Paul, those Ephesians and anyone else who has obeyed the gospel all belong to... that GROUP called "Christian".

He chose "us". Where? "In Christ". So no individual is of the foreknown elect unconditionally. To be of the foreknown elect one must conditionally be in Christ and one must be in the GROUP to be in Christ. This is why there is no such thing in the NT as an individual unconditionally saved APART from the GROUP for it the GROUP that is saved and not the individual apart from the group.

Christ views us in the church as individuals, not the group.
Does God call the church as a group, or are we the called of Christ individually?
Christ adds to the church daily those who are being saved.

1 Corinthians 12:27
Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually.
Jude 1:1
[ Greeting to the Called ] Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ:

Those who are called, is referring to individual persons.

sdowney717 · Jul 5, 2017

Romans 9, individuals are called, not the group.

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

TheSeabass · Jul 6, 2017

sdowney717 said:
Christ views us in the church as individuals, not the group.
Does God call the church as a group, or are we the called of Christ individually?
Christ adds to the church daily those who are being saved.

1 Corinthians 12:27
Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually.
Jude 1:1
[ Greeting to the Called ] Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ:

Those who are called, is referring to individual persons.

The group is made up of individuals but no individual is saved, not part of the elect while apart from the group for it is the group that is elect.

Each member at Corinth was part of the group/the body of Christ. Was there an individual at Corinth who was saved yet not part of the body of Christ (the group)? No, for there is no salvation outside of the body of Christ (outside of the group).

Jude uses the terms "called", "sanctified" and "in Christ" and these terms define the group so one must be of the group to have these traits. That is why it cannot be found in the NT gospel an individual who possessed these traits yet not in the group If salvation is not about the group, then why isn't the NT full of information about individuals who are 'the called' and 'sanctified' and 'in Christ' yet not in the group Christian?

TheSeabass · Jul 6, 2017

sdowney717 said:
Romans 9, individuals are called, not the group.

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

All are called, both Jew and Gentile, but only those who answer the call make up "the called" , make up the group.

bbbbbbb · Jul 6, 2017

II Thessalonians 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. 14 It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

sdowney717 · Jul 6, 2017

bbbbbbb said:
II Thessalonians 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. 14 It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Perfect fit with Ephesians 1 and 2 and Romans 4.
Beloved by God, chosen from before the foundation of the world, to be saved and of His brethren.

Romans 4:16
Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all

bbbbbbb · Jul 6, 2017

sdowney717 said:
Perfect fit with Ephesians 1 and 2 and Romans 4.
Beloved by God, chosen from before the foundation of the world, to be saved and of His brethren.

Romans 4:16
Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all

Here is what James, who is mistakenly believed to teach salvation by works, has to say -

James 1:18 In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures.

TheSeabass · Jul 7, 2017

bbbbbbb said:
II Thessalonians 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. 14 It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Much information can be gained from this short passage:

1) when Paul says those Thessalonians Christians were chosen by God "from the beginning" does not mean the individual Christian cannot lose his salvation. Paul warns them in 1 Thessalonians 3:5 they could be tempted, deceived and "and our labour be in vain". There were converts of Paul's in Galatia that had left the gospel, had fallen from grace and Paul told them "I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain" Gal 4:11. So there is no OSAS for the one who allows himself to be deceived.

2) individuals who make up the chosen are not arbitrarily chosen or chosen for some unknown reason.
Men are chosen to salvation conditionally " through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth".
Those individuals that conditionally have a belief of the truth make up the chosen GROUP called Christian. Contrasted to those that choose to not believe the truth in verse 12. Therefore God's choosing requires belief on part on the individual.

TheSeabass · Jul 7, 2017

bbbbbbb said:
Here is what James, who is mistakenly believed to teach salvation by works, has to say -

James 1:18 In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures.

The "us" and "we" refer to the group Christian.

God brought us forth "by the word of truth", so salvation does not happen in some arbitrary, unknown or miraculous way but by the word. Those saved will be saved by the word, the gospel is God's power to save, Romans 1:17. John 6:45 God draws by His word when men have been 'taught', 'heard' and 'learn' that word then men come to Christ. 2 Thessalonians 2:14 men are called by the gospel. So those that will be saved were not arbitrarily predestined by God before the world began apart from the word of truth. As we just saw in 2 Thessalonians 2:12-13 salvation is not done apart from the free will of man in either choosing to not believe or believe.

"we would be a kind of first fruits" those in Thessalonica in the first century were among the first generation in the group called "Christian".

James 2:24 "by works a man is justified" -- it would take a great amount of work and effort to not understand such simple language, simple words.

bbbbbbb · Jul 7, 2017

I Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

What is predestination? Is predestination biblical?

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