Speak in Tongues - essential :

Anto9us

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It is sometimes good to unignore the Cessationists,
so I can see these examples of "HagionPneumaMyopia"
in all its various stages...

THAT WHICH IS PERFECT is the whole KINGDOM and STATE OF AFFAIRS accompanying Christ's return, so even if grammatically splitting hairs, it is an IT and not just a HE

But as I have pointed out above, this "Masculine gender vs Neuter gender" jazz can't be carried too far, Holy Spirit Himself is referred to in both ways
 
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swordsman1

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It is sometimes good to unignore the Cessationists,
so I can see these examples of "HagionPneumaMyopia"
in all its various stages...

THAT WHICH IS PERFECT is the whole KINGDOM and STATE OF AFFAIRS accompanying Christ's return, so even if grammatically splitting hairs, it is an IT and not just a HE

But as I have pointed out above, this "Masculine gender vs Neuter gender" jazz can't be carried too far, Holy Spirit Himself is referred to in both ways

REASONS WHY TO TELEION CANNOT MEAN “THE PERFECT” IN 13:10

The most common definitions of the English word "perfect" applied to Corinthians 13:10 would probably include:
(a) being entirely without fault or defect
(b) corresponding to an ideal standard or abstract concept
(c) the soundness and the excellence of every part, element, or quality of a thing frequently as an unattainable or theoretical state.

Either of these three or a combination of them is the usual notion the average person attaches to the word. All three are qualitative in nature, a characteristic that renders them unsatisfactory renderings of to teleion. Four reasons demonstrate this:

[1] No other use of teleios in Paul can possibly mean "perfection" in the sense of the absence of all imperfection. In fact, the meaning of “perfection" in Greek philosophers—that of a “perfect" man—is absent from the New Testament." Utopian perfection was a philosophical notion, not a New Testament idea, for this word.“ Elsewhere in Paul the adjective is figurative and refers almost exclusively to a grown man [cf. 1 Cor. 2:6, 14:20, Phil. 3:15; Eph. 4:13; Col. 1:28; cf. also Heb. 5:14].o One other time, in Colossians 4:12, it means "mature" in the Old Testament sense of wholeness and obedience to God's will, and picks up on his ambition for every man as stated in Colossians 1:28." So six of the other seven times Paul uses the word, it means "mature." The remaining use is in Romans 12:1 where its meaning is “complete."
This pattern of usage establishes a strong probability that the word includes the sense of maturity in 1 Corinthians 13:10, especially since its other two uses in 1 Corinthians have that sense.

[2] In the immediate context of 1 Corinthians 13:8–13, a qualitative word such as "perfect" is unsuitable in light of the apodosis of the sentence in 13:10, “Perfect" is not a suitable opposite to ek merous ["partial"). A better meaning would be "whole" or "complete" as antithetical to ek merous.

[3] The terminology of 13:11 is most conclusive because it is an analogy with the stages of human life [i.e., nēpios (“child"] and anēr ["man"]].

(a) The analogy directly impacts the meaning of to teleion in 13:10 because it sets up a teleios/nēpios antithesis in verses 10–11 that is relative, not absolute, and therefore incompatible with the concept of perfection. The difference between childhood and adulthood is a matter of degree, not one of mutually exclusive differentiation.
(b) The nēpios/anēr antithesis in verse 11 has the same contextual effect of ruling out the notion of an ideal state as denoted by the translation “perfect."[4] The terminology of 13:12 requires an allusion to degrees of revelatory understanding, not perfection or freedom from imperfection. The verbs blepomen ("I see") and ginõskõ ("I know") correlate with the gifts of prophecy and knowledge and their limited insights compared with the complete understanding that will prevail in the future. This is quantitative, not qualitative, so to teleion must have the same quantitative connotation.

Hence, both etymological and contextual considerations argue emphatically against the meaning "perfect" for to teleion.

REASONS WHY TO TELEION MUST MEAN “COMPLETE” OR “MATURE”

Corresponding to the reasons for not translating "the perfect" in 1 Corinthians 13:10 are four considerations pointing toward the meaning “complete” or "mature" for to teleion.

1. The idea of totality, wholeness, or completion controls the New Testament usage of teleios. In the present connection, totality takes on an added dimension: "Yet in the main the feeling of antiquity . . . was that only an 'adult’ can be a 'full' man; hence these senses can overlap in Paul."' The thought behind the overlap of "complete" and "mature" in this word's usage is that in the minds of the ancients, adulthood represented a degree of completeness not present during childhood. If ever a clear case for this overlap in meaning existed, 1 Corinthians 13:10 is that case. The background of teleios not only allows for the overlap, the circumstances of the context also require the dual concept of “complete-mature."

2. Another reason for this meaning is the consistent sense of the teleios/ nēpios antithesis in Paul, the New Testament, and all Greek literature. Whenever in the proximity of nēpios, as it is in 1 Corinthians 13:10–11, teleios always carries the connotation of adulthood versus childhood [1 Cor. 2:6 and 3:1; 14:20; Eph. 3:13–14; cf. Heb. 5:13–14)." In 1 Corinthians 2:6 Paul speaks of imparting wisdom to tois teleiois (“the mature"), but he encounters an obstacle because, according to 1 Corinthians 3:1, his readers are nēpiois ("infants"]. In 1 Corinthians 14:20, his command to the Corinthians is to be children (nēpiazete) in malice but adults (teleioi) in understanding. In Ephesians 4:13–14, his goal is for all members of Christ's body to attain to the unity of the faith and of the full knowledge of the Son of God, i.e., to a teleios anēr ("mature man"), so that they be no longer nēpioi (“children"). The writer of Hebrews echoes this antithesis in 5:13–14 when he compares elementary teaching to milk that is suitable for a nēpios ("child" or “infant") with solid food that is suitable for teleiōn ("the mature").

3. First Corinthians 12–14 has many parallels with Ephesians 4:1-16, a passage that teaches the gradual maturing of the church through the present age. That correspondence is all the more instructive in light of Paul's presence in Ephesus while writing 1 Corinthians. He was probably teaching the Ephesian church the same principles he penned in the Corinthian letter. Then about five years later, as he wrote back to the Ephesian church, he found it necessary to reemphasize and develop the same truths about growth in the body of Christ that he had instructed them about while present with them. The similarities between the two contexts include the following:
  • All Seven unifying influences listed in Ephesians 4:4-6 are present in 1 Corinthians 12–14 [1 Cor. 12:4-6, 13; 13:13, 14:22). Particularly noticeable are one body, one Spirit, one Lord, one baptism, and one God and Father of all.
  • Emphasis on unity in the body [1 Cor. 12:4-6, 11–13, 24—26; Eph. 4:3, 13) along with the diversity of the body's members (1 Cor. 12:14—26; Eph. 4:11, 16) pervades each passage.
  • The noun meros (“part") in both passages depicts individual members of Christ's body (1 Cor. 12:27; Eph. 4:16).
  • Corporateness of the body (1 Cor. 12:27a; Eph. 4:15–16) combines with an individualistic focus [1 Cor. 12:27b; Eph. 4:4, 7, 16) as a ruling consideration in both places.
  • The general subject under discussion in Ephesians (Eph. 4:7, 11) is spiritual gifts as it is in 1 Corinthians 12–14.
  • The figure representing the church in both passages is the human body, as it is always when Paul talks about spiritual gifts (1 Cor. 12:12-27; Eph. 4:4, 15–16; cf. Rom. 12:3-8).
  • Edification of the body of Christ is the stated objective in both sections (1 Cor. 14:12, 26; Eph. 4:12, 16).
  • Growth from childhood to adulthood is portrayed in Ephesians 4:13–14 as it is in 1 Corinthians 13:11,
  • The nēpios/teleios anēr antithesis is found in Ephesians as it is in 1 Corinthians 13:10–11 (Eph. 4:13–14)
Love is the overarching quality in the growth process in both passages [1 Cor. 13:1-13; Eph. 4:15–16).
Since Ephesians 4:1-16 offers a distinct picture of a gradually developing and maturing body of Christ," the probability is strong that Paul intends to convey the same in 1 Corinthians 13:11, Though he may not say explicitly “the complete or mature body" [i.e., the complete or mature body with reference to revelatory activity) in 1 Corinthians 13:10, he had doubtless taught them verbally at some time during his extended eighteen-month residence in Corinth (as he did the Ephesian church) regarding this analogy so that it was perfectly clear to them what he was talking about. It remains for the interpreter to clarify what he meant by resorting to another of his writings quite relevant to 1 Corinthians.

4. The illustration of 13:11 is hardly suitable to refer to the difference between the present and a period after the parousia. So, the analogy of verse 11 must be supplying data supplemental to what is in verse 12.

a. To say that the parousia is in view in verse 11 is to see Paul as using his own adult status to illustrate a perfection that follows the parousia. Yet, in Philippians 3:12, he views himself as incomplete in his current state as an adult [teteleiōmai ("I am brought to completeness"), a perfect tense; cf. gegona, 1 Corinthians 13:11, which has a present force: "now that I am a man"). In fact, in the very next verse, 1 Corinthians 13:12, he disclaims such a completed state by noting that currently he is among those whose present state is that of conspicuous limitations." This state of incompletion in Paul as an adult negates any possibility that he intends his adulthood of verse 11 to correspond to the state of ultimate completion in verse 12. It is also contrary to Pauline Christian humility as reflected elsewhere in the apostle's Writings that he would choose such an illustration (e.g., 1 Cor. 15:9; Eph. 3:8; 1Tim. 1:15)

b. The nature of the transition from childhood to adulthood is not Sudden as will be the change at the parousia. It is a gradual process. Adolescence is a transitional period between childhood and adulthood.

c. By nature, the process described by katērgēka ("I render inoperative") in 13:11 indicates an altered condition that Continues. It is a dramatic perfecto It indicates "a change of state which still continues; the emancipation from childish things took place as a matter of course, . . . and it continues."* If Christ did not return before a permanent body of New Testament revelation was finished, a degree of completion would arrive that would render unnecessary a continuation of the process involving the revelatory gifts.

d. The difference between childhood and manhood is a feeble illustration of the vast difference between the Christian's present state and that which will exist after the parousia.

- From Understanding Spiritual Gifts - A verse by verse study of 1 Corinthians 12-14 by Robert Thomas (Professor of New Testament at The Master's Seminary in Sun Valley, CA).
 
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1stcenturylady

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Paul answered the question.

I would hate to believe only the Corinths received the Holy Spirit, as tongues is not a Gospel message (from Jesus) nor is it mentioned to any other churches by Paul or mentioned in the non Canon Christian scriptures.

The "gospel" has to do with salvation, so you are right in your statement, however, it is part of our new testament/new covenant.

The Great Commission
14 Later He appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table; and He rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen. 15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

In my Bible, the above is in red, so they are the words of Jesus.
 
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1stcenturylady

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Alas, it seems as though the mere suggestion from a Christian of another tradition saying that Mr. X isn't really speaking in tongues--perhaps some TV preacher who throws a "Kala mala lama haka" into the middle of a sentence--is met by Pentecostal Christians with a denunciation as though HE, the observer, must be the one who doesn't have faith for having doubted.

No, but if someone doubts EVERY Pentecostal that speaks in tongues, then yes, they don't have faith in the word of God.
 
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Albion

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No, but if someone doubts EVERY Pentecostal that speaks in tongues, then yes, they don't have faith in the word of God.
If that is your opinion, then it is. But, again, we were discussing the gifts of the Holy Spirit, not who has faith and who doesn't.

Besides, it is quite wrong IMHO to label any self-identified Christian as one who does not have "faith in the word of God" merely because there's a difference of opinion concerning one small doctrinal issue.
 
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Anto9us

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I don't care if 'THAT WHICH IS PERFECT", "COMPLETENESS", or "final maturity" is used for an English rendition of TO TELEION; makes no difference to me.

TO TELEION is a time when we shall no longer SEE THROUGH A GLASS DARKLY -- as Paul, even in his own personal maturity -- said was still the case with him, even in adulthood/maturity.

It is a time/state of things WHICH HAS NOT COME YET, TO THIS DAY.

It has nothing whatsoever to do with the "completion of the New Testament writings".

THE ANALOGIES OF 'MILK VS. MEAT', "child to man", are illustrative of the human life of a Christian as he or she progresses in spiritual development -- they do not relate in any way to a FINAL KINGDOM COME when we will no longer see through a glass darkly -- it aint over til it's over.

And it aint over yet.
 
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Anto9us

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1Co 13:8
Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

1Co 13:9
For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

1Co 13:10
But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

1Co 13:11
When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

1Co 13:12
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.


The "FOR NOW / BUT THEN" illustration cannot mean "Christians will see Christ FACE TO FACE once the last New Testament book is written" as Cessationists allege.

It DOES NOT YET APPEAR what will be - but when He shall appear WE SHALL BE LIKE HIM, FOR WE WILL SEE HIM AS HE IS

that's how John describes this FINAL COMPLETENESS that still hasn't happened yet
 
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Anto9us

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1John 3:2

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for

we shall see him as he is.


Sound kind of similar to "seeing FACE TO FACE", rather than through a glass darkly?
 
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Anto9us

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1Pe 3:18
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

1Pe 3:19
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
 
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swordsman1

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The "FOR NOW / BUT THEN" illustration cannot mean "Christians will see Christ FACE TO FACE once the last New Testament book is written" as Cessationists allege.

Christ or his return is never mentioned in this passage. "Face to face" is to do with the analogy of a mirror. At the time of Paul's writing piecemeal prophecies were like looking at someone in a dim mirror - only partial glimpses of God's revelation to man. But when "completeness" comes it would be like looking at someone "face to face" ie with far greater fullness and detail. Partial revelations provided by the NT gift of prophecy would cease and be replaced with the full and complete revelation of scripture.
 
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Phantasman

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Absolutely !!!

Receive the Holy Ghost and the immediate outward evidence speaking in tongues as the spirit gives direct undefileable contact with GOD !

Just as in the beginning ..Acts 2v4.. included Mary the mother of Jesus....

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. (MUST)

Joh 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth....according to the word, to pray in the Spirit :

1Co 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

Ac 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


the first 2 is your part...the third is Gods seal of approval !

Holy Ghost + speaking in tongues .. no tongues no Spirit..

Ro 8:9 .............Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Not to be confused with the demonstration IN THE CHURCH (max 3) to show you are who you say you are !!
when you pray..go to your closet, private place and pray...


confess Jesus Christ..his way...

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

package deal

obtain the Grace,Mercy and Faith that Jesus Christ has made avaliable to whomsoever will..

or have the adversaries religious confusion..just words no power !

Have you ever wondered why the words from Mark 16 you quote cannot be found in the Codex Sinaiticus, the oldest Bible found to date?

'Codex Sinaiticus, a manuscript of the Christian Bible written in the middle of the fourth century, contains the earliest complete copy of the Christian New Testament."
 
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Anto9us

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Let's THINK THROUGH what it would mean if
TONGUES/PROPHECY/WORD OF KNOWLEDGE
as charismatic gifts suddenly CEASED when the New Testament
was finished being written...

what DATES will we use for this "completion of New Testament"?

majority of sholars say Revelation was written about 95 AD
(though some sincere Christians who are Partial Preterists
hold that it may have been written in late sixties)

But lets say that it is now 110 AD, all apostles, even John of Zebedee,
are deceased -- the Gospels are finished and in the hands of local churches,
book of Revelation has been smuggled off Patmos and in the hands of Churches

And say we have one Lucius Marcellus, a Gentile Christian who has been speaking/praying
in Tongues for decades and decades...

At this point of TO TELEION (assuming just for sake of argument here that the Cessationist view that it means 'completion of New Testament' is correct,not that I think it is, but assume it for a moment...)

Does Lucius Marcellus wake up one morning and find that
HE CAN SUDDENLY NO LONGER PRAY IN TONGUES ??!!??

Or let us say that this TO TELEION is much later --
like when THE FIRST KNOWN LIST OF ALL 27 NT BOOKS WAS GIVEN
(which I think was about 325 AD in an Easter letter by Athanasius)

Then at that time we have Priscilla Bartholemew,
a Christian who has been praying in Tongues for decades;
does she read Athanasius' letter with the list of the 27 books and say to herself:

"Oh - that is why I have not been able to pray in Tongues since last wednesday --
THAT WHICH IS PERFECT/complete/mature has COME!!
Of course my charismaton just vanished!!"

See the silliness in saying TO TELEION means completion of the New Testament?
 
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Anto9us

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it would be like looking at someone "face to face" ie with far greater fullness and detail.

That's one reason I included John's quote of "we shall see Him as He is" -- it doth not yet appear what we shall be -- I mean this goes far beyond "looking at one's face in a mirror", sheesh, this is KINGDOM COME, this is the whole shootin' match!

---

OK -- You want to say Codex Sinaiticus signifies the TO TELEION?
Far fetched, but even so -- same thing applies -- James Justus has been speaking/praying in Tongues most of his life -- can he suddenly NOT DO IT ANYMORE when he gets a copy of Codex Sinaiticus?

Now add to this that churches in some parts of the world did not accept certain NT books as canonical til much much later than Codex Sinaiticus, and the "completion of New Testament" idea gets sillier and sillier.

If you admit that the charismatic gifts EVER WERE valid, then the POINT AT WHICH THEY CEASE is something BIG -- all flesh shall see it together -- WHAM, BOOM, all over -- with no ambiguity whatsover that TO TELEION is here at last, NO DEBATING ON MESSAGE BOARDS 2000 YEARS LATER ABOUT IT!!.

Didn't happen -- it's not here yet.

Let the Cessationist continue in his Cessationism -- I write for people who may be observing this thread without entering in -- not everybody has THEIR MIND MADE UP about this issue; and I want to point out the ERROR of seeing the TO TELEION as "New Testament being finished".
 
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swordsman1

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Let's THINK THROUGH what it would mean if
TONGUES/PROPHECY/WORD OF KNOWLEDGE
as charismatic gifts suddenly CEASED when the New Testament
was finished being written...

what DATES will we use for this "completion of New Testament"?

majority of sholars say Revelation was written about 95 AD
(though some sincere Christians who are Partial Preterists
hold that it may have been written in late sixties)

But lets say that it is now 110 AD, all apostles, even John of Zebedee,
are deceased -- the Gospels are finished and in the hands of local churches,
book of Revelation has been smuggles off Patmos and in the hands of Churches

And say we have one Lucius Marcellus, a Gentile Christian who has been speaking/praying
in Tongues for decades and decades...

At this point of TO TELEION (assuming that the Cessationist view that it means
'completion of New Testament' is correct)

Does Lucius Marcellus wake up one morning and find that
HE CAN NO LONGER PRAY IN TONGUES ??!!??

Or let us say that this TO TELEION is much later --
like when THE FIRST KNOWN LIST OF ALL 27 NT BOOKS WAS GIVEN
(which I think was about 325 AD in an Easter letter by Athanasius)

Then at that time we have Priscilla Bartholemew,
a Christian who has been praying in Tongues for decades;
does she read Athanasius' letter with the list of the 27 books and say to herself:

"Oh - that is why I have not been able to pray in Tongues since last wednesday --
THAT WHICH IS PERFECT/complete/mature has COME!!
Of course my charismaton just vanished!!"

See the silliness in saying TO TELEION means completion of the New Testament?

No tongues didn't cease when the ink dried on John's papyrus. It took decades until the completed canon was circulated to all the churches. The early church fathers (eg Origen, Irenaeus) reported that tongues was still in operation around 150AD (and they confirmed it was foreign human languages), but we see increasing rarity of the gift in the patristic reports until around 350-400AD when the later church fathers (eg Chrysostom, Augustine) reported that the gift had ceased.
 
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1stcenturylady

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If that is your opinion, then it is. But, again, we were discussing the gifts of the Holy Spirit, not who has faith and who doesn't.

Besides, it is quite wrong IMHO to label any self-identified Christian as one who does not have "faith in the word of God" merely because there's a difference of opinion concerning one small doctrinal issue.

1 Corinthians 14:22-23 shows that tongues is a sign to the unbeliever. Why? Because they will speak against it. They will think you are mad. But verse 23 gives two categories - the unsaved, and the merely uninformed. You may be in the second group. They are saved, but still ignorant about tongues, and like the unsaved will speak against it. This type of sign is also mentioned in Luke 2:34. It just means that it is a "sign which will be spoken against."
 
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Anto9us

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Have you ever wondered why the words from Mark 16 you quote cannot be found in the Codex Sinaiticus

I have. Have you?

So what do you say Phantasman -- is Mark 16:9-20 SCRIPTURE or not? Is it a GLOSS, or is the passage inspired by God?
 
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1stcenturylady

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I have. Have you?

So what do you say Phantasman -- is Mark 16:9-20 SCRIPTURE or not? Is it a GLOSS, or is the passage inspired by God?

Why isn't it in there? I believe it is inspired.
 
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Marvin Knox

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I don't care if 'THAT WHICH IS PERFECT", "COMPLETENESS", or "final maturity" is used for an English rendition of TO TELEION; makes no difference to me.
TO TELEION is a time when we shall no longer SEE THROUGH A GLASS DARKLY -- as Paul, even in his own personal maturity -- said was still the case with him, even in adulthood/maturity.
It is a time/state of things WHICH HAS NOT COME YET, TO THIS DAY.
It has nothing whatsoever to do with the "completion of the New Testament writings".
HE ANALOGIES OF 'MILK VS. MEAT', "child to man", are illustrative of the human life of a Christian as he or she progresses in spiritual development -- they do not relate in any way to a FINAL KINGDOM COME when we will no longer see through a glass darkly -- it aint over til it's over.
And it aint over yet.
All a person has to do to know whether maturity has come to the church is log in here at the Christian Forums. If things are still is in doubt spend some time in the soteriology section.:eek:
 
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Marvin Knox

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No tongues didn't cease when the ink dried on John's papyrus. It took decades until the completed canon was circulated to all the churches.
So, if the circulation of the completed canon is the criteria for when the gifts ceased, that would perhaps explain why tongues and the other gifts are so active in the areas where the scriptures aren't as readily available as they are in the West.

Lot of charismatic/Pentecostal activity in the world today. Just look around.

As I see things - shame on many where the church has been blessed the most for their lack of faith.

IMO - the idea that the gifts passed away because the canon was completed and circulated is ridiculous. That's because the directions for the use of those gifts in the church and privately are found in (wait for it :)) - the completed and circulated canon.

I don't depend on Chrysostom and Augustine to tell me about the use of tongues in the church and privately. I depend on the scriptures. To each his own - I guess :scratch:.
 
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Anto9us

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Why isn't it in there? I believe it is inspired.

It IS inspired, 1stcenturylady, this is a case of "selective textual criticism" by the nay-sayers of Tongues

There are some manuscripts where the Gospel of Mark ends at 16:8.

Therefore it is now getting thrown at us Tongues-affirmers that the entire "signs following" passage at the end of Mark is in question -- they'll say anything -- ANYTHING to DISS TONGUES.

Seeing how the "completion of the New Testament" folderol isn't going over, now here comes the "but Mark 16:9-20 isnt really supposed to be in the Bible" tactic.
(yawn)

same-o same-o Cessationists.
 
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