Universalism...why not?

Der Alte · Jul 4, 2017

ClementofA said:
I doubt you can find the word "opposite" in the entire Bible.
As for Origen:
"When it is said that "the last enemy" shall be destroyed, it is not to be understood as meaning that his substance, which is God's creation, perishes, but that his purpose and hostile will perishes; for this does not come from God but from himself. Therefore his destruction means not his ceasing to exist, but ceasing to be an enemy and ceasing to be death. Nothing is impossible to omnipotence; there is nothing that cannot be healed by its Maker.—De Principiis III. vi.5
"The restoration to unity must not be imagined as a sudden happening. Rather it is to be thought of as gradually effected by stages during the passing of countless ages. Little by little and individually the correction and purification will be accomplished. Some will lead the way and climb to the heights with swifter progress, others following right behind them; yet others will be far behind. Thus multitudes of individuals and countless orders, who once were enemies, will advance and reconcile themselves to God; and so at length the last enemy will be reached... —De Principiis III.vi.6
...God acts in dealing with sinners as a physician...the fury of his anger is profitable for the purging of souls. Even that penalty which is said to be imposed by way of fire is understood as applied to assist a sinner to health... —De Principiis II.x.6

How does this copy/paste from tents-я-us address anything in the post you quoted? Even if they are quoted correctly what do you think they show? Do you think that the words of Origen who lived 185 a.d.- 254 a.d. over rule the words of Paul?
.....It is irrelevant that Paul did not use the word "opposite" In 2 Cor 4:17-19, 5:1 it is clear Paul is contrasting aionios with temporary and "ages' or "age long" is not the opposite of temporary. And an earthly house which can be destroyed is not the opposite of an"ages long" house in heaven. And Origen, the poster boy for universalism, quotes this passage four times in his writings. In your quote interesting that Origen says "destruction means not his ceasing to exist." I guess our earthly home does not cease to exist.

NIV 2 Corinthians 4:17-18
(17) For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] glory that far outweighs them all.
(18) So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen, since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.[αἰώνιος]
2 Corinthians 5:1
(1) For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal [αἰώνιος] house in heaven, not built by human hands.

Der Alter said:
Most of your post was quotes from the universalist bible "tentmakers."
You quoted four words by one scholar out of nine pages of documentation and ignored where that same scholar also said aionios means eternal!

2. αιωνιος aionios [166] "describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in <Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 1:2>; or undefined because endless as in <Rom. 16:26>, and the other sixty-six places in the NT.
"The predominant meaning of αιωνιος , that in which it is used everywhere in the NT, save the places noted above, may be seen in <2 Cor. 4:18>, where it is set in contrast with proskairos, lit., `for a season,' and in <Philem. 15>, where only in the NT it is used without a noun. Moreover it is used of persons and things which are in their nature endless, as, e. g., of God, <Rom. 16:26>; of His power, <1 Tim. 6:16>, and of His glory, <1 Pet. 5:10>; of the Holy Spirit, <Heb. 9:14>; of the redemption effected by Christ, <Heb. 9:12>, and of the consequent salvation of men, <5:9>, as well as of His future rule, <2 Pet. 1:11>, which is elsewhere declared to be without end, <Luke 1:33>; of the life received by those who believe in Christ, <John 3:16>, concerning whom He said, `they shall never perish,' <10:28>, and of the resurrection body, <2 Cor. 5:1>, elsewhere said to be `immortal,' <1 Cor. 15:53>, in which that life will be finally realized, <Matt. 25:46; Titus 1:2>.
αιωνιος is also used of the sin that `hath never forgiveness,' <Mark 3:29>, and of the judgment of God, from which there is no appeal, <Heb. 6:2>, and of the fire, which is one of its instruments, <Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7>, and which is elsewhere said to be `unquenchable,' <Mark 9:43>.
"The use of αιωνιος here shows that the punishment referred to in <2 Thes. 1:9>, is not temporary, but final, and, accordingly, the phraseology shows that its purpose is not remedial but retributive."

From Notes on Thessalonians, by Hogg and Vine, pp 232, 233. (from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words) (Copyright (C) 1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers)
You have not even read or addressed the other 8 sources. Four words out of nine pages only proves that one scholar said that. One is not a consensus. Note how Vine's cites 2 Cor 4:18 as a verse which shows aionios means eternal, just as I said it does.
And you have not shown any discussion or evidence that my interpretation of 2 Corinthians 4:17-18 and 1 Corinthians 5:1 is not correct. Vines quotes 2 Cor 4:18 5:You keep repeating the claim that "your own touted highly venerated 9 sources admit the word is used of duration that is finite etc." But you have only quoted "4 words from one source to back up that claim. Once again one is not a consensus.
Repeating the same thing over and over and over does not make it correct. Peter being a rock and satan is ridiculous! Herod being a fox is ridiculous! James and John being sons of thunder is ridiculous! Issachar being a donkey is ridiculous! People having a log in their eye is ridiculous! A camel going thorough the eye of a needle is ridiculous! But all of those things are stated in scripture. And many others. How do you explain that?
Thank you for your unsupported opinion what is and is not hyperbole! Paul stated very clearly three times that aionios was the opposite of temporal, momentary and an earthly house which can be destroyed. What part do I need to explain again?
I don't read the universalist bible "tentmakers!"
I am not interested in any copy/pasted commentaries. They are all unsupported arguments, not evidence.
This is a argument not evidence. How many words in English do we have to say eternal? Endless! Unending! Everlasting! Perpetual! Infinite! Where is it written that Greek only has one word?
Paul said aionios was the opposite of temporal and momentary! "Ages,""age during" etc are not the opposite of temporal and momentary. And Paul said that our earthly house can be destroyed but we have an aionios home in heaven which strongly implies it cannot be destroyed. Origen quoted this passage four (4) times in his writings.
.....Why don't you come back when you can provide credible, verifiable, historical which is your own work and not a copy/paste from tents-я-us.

Der Alter said:
It is only ambiguous to people with an agenda. As Vine said the predominant meaning in the NT is eternal. Remember, aionios was not ambiguous to Paul! He clearly defined αἰώνιος/aionios as opposite to temporary. And Origen, the poster boy for universalists, quotes Paul four times.

NIV 2 Corinthians 4:17-18
(17) For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] glory that far outweighs them all.
(18) So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen, since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.[αἰώνιος]
2 Corinthians 5:1
(1) For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal [αἰώνιος] house in heaven, not built by human hands.

Dartman · Jul 4, 2017

BUMP FOR Uber Genius!

Uber Genius said:
Opps read step 2 again.

Of coarse you are "comparing scripture" but it is eisogesis not exegesis. You are proof- texting.

You're going to need to do MUCH better than merely CLAIM it is eisogesis, you are going to have to provide Scripture that contradicts my interpretation.

Uber Genius said:
Now I wrote yesterday that I am not at all certain about which inference best explains the Biblical data as I have had other systematic theological work to do on more central doctrines. So I am not reject your view out of hand, I'm rejecting your method. Your view could have the most explanatory power for how the original audiences would have understood the teaching on the afterlife by Jesus in the sermon on the mount, or Oliver discourse, etc. But highlighting English words in modern translation and what they mean to us in English is a class of exegetical fallacy known as word study fallacy.

As long as the translators did a good job, it is no problem quoting the English translation. The ONLY time a word study is essential is, when the English translators were biased ... and trust me, I am utterly convinced this happens frequently.
BUT, until then your point is invalid.

Uber Genius said:
Taking passages out of context and highlighting what they don't say is known as an argument from ignorance and is a logical fallacy.

Not when the other party, or the other position, claims the text makes a point that is NOT supported by the actual words of the text.

ClementofA · Jul 5, 2017

Der Alter said:
As Vine said the predominant meaning in the NT is eternal.

The ***only*** meaning for AIDIOS (Rom.1:20; Jude 7) in the NT is eternal.

The***only*** meaning for "NO END" (LK.1:33) in the NT is eternal.

If Jesus were teaching eternal punishment He would have used words which were better suited to express endlessness than olam, aion and aionios. Those 3 words are often used in the ancient languages, including the Scriptures, of finite time periods that end, i.e. of durations that are not eternal.

If Christ meant "endless" punishment at Mt.25:46, why use the ambiguous aionios? Why not instead use the word aperantos ("endless"; 1 Timothy 1:4)?

Or why not use the words "no end" as in Lk1:33b: "And of His kingdom there will be no end"? The answer seems obvious.

If one wishes to teach something clearly, they use words that are definitive or less ambiguous, not words that are full of ambiguity. Therefore Christ did not teach "endless" punishment or torments that have "no end".

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

The "eternal" fire that burnt Sodom went out long ago (Jude 7). It ended. It wasn't "eternal". Neither will the "eternal" fire and punishment (correction) associated with the unrighteous (in Mt.25:41, 46) last forever.

Jude 7 As Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them in like manner to these committing ultra-prostitution, and coming away after other flesh, are lying before us, a specimen, experiencing the justice of fire eonian." (Jude 7, CLNT)

"Speaking of Jerusalem, Ezekiel gives us God's thoughts concerning Sodom. "As I live, saith the Lord God, Sodom thy sister hath not done, she nor her daughters, as thou hast done, thou and thy daughters." And again, "When I shall bring again their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters...then will I bring again the captivity of thy captives in the midst of them...when thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate" (Ezek.16:48,53,55)."

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Considering, then, that the Greek word aionios has a range of meanings, biased men should not have rendered the word in Mt.25:46 by their theological opinions as "everlasting". Thus they did not translate the word, but interpreted it. OTOH the versions with age-lasting, eonian & the like gave faithful translations & left the interpreting up to the readers as to what specific meaning within the "range of meanings" the word holds in any specific context. What biased scholars after the Douay & KJV traditions of the dark ages "church" have done is change the words of Scriptures to their own opinions, which is shameful.

Jeremiah 8:8 "How can you say, 'We are wise, And the law of the LORD is with us'? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes Has made it into a lie. 9 "The wise men are put to shame, They are dismayed and caught; Behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD..."

"After all, not only Walvoord, Buis, and Inge, but all intelligent students acknowledge that olam and aiõn sometimes refer to limited duration. Here is my point: The supposed special reference or usage of a word is not the province of the translator but of the interpreter. Since these authors themselves plainly indicate that the usage of a word is a matter of interpretation, it follows (1) that it is not a matter of translation, and (2) that it is wrong for any translation effectually to decide that which must necessarily remain a matter of interpretation concerning these words in question. Therefore, olam and aiõn should never be translated by the thought of “endlessness,” but only by that of indefinite duration (as in the anglicized transliteration “eon” which appears in the Concordant Version)."

Eon As Indefinte Duration, Part Three

Dartman · Jul 5, 2017

ClementofA said:
The ***only*** meaning for AIDIOS (Rom.1:20; Jude 7) in the NT is eternal.

You mean Jude 6... and those "everlasting chains" are finite. They only last until "the judgment of the great day". Then they will no longer be needed, since everything in that fire is destroyed. Like Sodom and Gomorrah are destroyed (Jude 7)

ClementofA said:
The***only*** meaning for "NO END" (LK.1:33) in the NT is eternal.

Here are some verses using the same Greek word;
Mark 3:26 And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end.
Rom 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
Phil 3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
Heb 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

ClementofA said:
If Jesus were teaching eternal punishment He would have used words which were better suited to express endlessness than olam, aion and aionios. Those 3 words are often used in the ancient languages, including the Scriptures, of finite time periods that end, i.e. of durations that are not eternal.

Jesus is teaching eternal punishment, he is NOT teaching that the punishING goes on forever. Jesus used MANY different phrases/words to convey this truth;
Destroyed.
hath an end.
Damnation.
Condemned.
Judged.
Burned.
Cast into hell (fire).
NOT enter the kingdom

It is blatantly obvious why you want to burrow into this attempt to erode the meanings of words. Your doctrine CANNOT survive the broad overview of Scripture.

Der Alte · Jul 5, 2017

ClementofA said:
The ***only*** meaning for AIDIOS (Rom.1:20; Jude 7) in the NT is eternal.
The***only*** meaning for "NO END" (LK.1:33) in the NT is eternal.

Same tired ol' copy/paste from tents-я-us. All irrelevant! Logical fallacy, argument from silence!

If Jesus were teaching eternal punishment He would have used words which were better suited to express endlessness than olam, aion and aionios. Those 3 words are often used in the ancient languages, including the Scriptures, of finite time periods that end, i.e. of durations that are not eternal.

This is you presuming to speak for Jesus what He would have done or said in any given situation. Unless you have earned a graduate degree in Greek you are not qualified to say which word is/is not better suited to any situation.

If Christ meant "endless" punishment at Mt.25:46, why use the ambiguous aionios? Why not instead use the word aperantos ("endless"; 1 Timothy 1:4)?
Or why not use the words "no end" as in Lk1:33b: "And of His kingdom there will be no end"? The answer seems obvious.

The only thing obvious here is more of the same presuming to speak for and decide which word Jesus should have used in any situation. Aionios was not ambiguous to Origen, the Uni poster boy. In DePrincipiis Bk II, Chap III Origen quotes Paul. And Origen uses eternal as synonymous with incorruptible, perpetual, never ending, immortal, last forever.

De Principiis. Book II. Chap III
6. We must see, moreover, lest perhaps it is with reference to this that the apostle says, “While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are unseen are eternal. For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.” (2 Corinthians 4:18 2 Corinthians 5:1) And when he says elsewhere, “Because I shall see the heavens, the works of Thy fingers,” (Psa_8:3) and when God said, regarding all things visible, by the mouth of His prophet, “My hand has formed all these things,” (Isa_66:2) He declares that that eternal house in the heavens which He promises to His saints was not made with hands, pointing out, doubtless, the difference of creation in things which are seen and in those which are not seen.
De Principiis. Book III. Chap. I.
13. For God deals with souls not merely with a view to the short space of our present life, included within sixty years or more, but with reference to a perpetual and never-ending period, exercising His providential care over souls that are immortal, even as He Himself is eternal and immortal. For He made the rational nature, which He formed in His own image and likeness, incorruptible; and therefore the soul, which is immortal, is not excluded by the shortness of the present life from the divine remedies and cures.
Origen De Principiis. Book IV. Chap. I
36. Every mind which partakes of intellectual light ought undoubtedly to be of one nature with every mind which partakes in a similar manner of intellectual light. If the heavenly virtues, then, partake of intellectual light, i.e., of divine nature, because they participate in wisdom and holiness, and if human souls, have partaken of the same light and wisdom, and thus are mutually of one nature and of one essence, - then, since the heavenly virtues are incorruptible and immortal, the essence of the human soul will also be immortal and incorruptible. And not only so, but because the nature of Father, and Son, and Holy Spirit, whose intellectual light alone all created things have a share, is incorruptible and eternal, it is altogether consistent and necessary that every substance which partakes of that eternal nature should last for ever, and be incorruptible and eternal, so that the eternity of divine goodness may be understood also in this respect, that they who obtain its benefits are also eternal.

ClementofA · Jul 5, 2017

Dartman said:
You mean Jude 6... and those "everlasting chains" are finite. They only last until "the judgment of the great day". Then they will no longer be needed, since everything in that fire is destroyed. Like Sodom and Gomorrah are destroyed (Jude 7)

And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. (Jude 6)

Jude 6 says the angels are kept in everlasting chains to the day of judgement. There is no indication that the chains are finite. The implication is that the period of time they are kept in those chains is finite, until the day of judgement. Then they are loosed from those everlasting chains, which may be a way of referring to the eternal power of God.
If the chains themselves were only temporary, then the writer would have left out the word "everlasting" in regards to the chains.

They will ultimately be reconciled to God (Col.1:20).

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

ClementofA · Jul 5, 2017

Dartman said:
Here are some verses using the same Greek word;
Mark 3:26 And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end.
Rom 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
Phil 3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
Heb 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

None of these verses say the punishment of anyone will have "no end" or be "endless". Since Jesus never used any language like that, when He easily could have repeatedly, He did not teach any kind of endless punishment or torments.

Those verses are easily harmonized with the Scriptural teaching of universalism, the salvation of all:

"So God said to Noah, "I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth." (Gen.6:13)

The "end" of all people was "destruction" by God (Gen.6:13). This already happened. Yet they are not annihilated forever. And they will be resurrected.

Neither was the earth that was "destroyed" (Gen.6:13) annihilated forever.

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. These things command and teach.

1 Timothy 2:4-6
4 Who wills that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one Mediator of God and mankind, a Man, Christ Jesus,
6 Who is giving Himself a correspondent Ransom for all (the testimony in its own eras),

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Dartman · Jul 5, 2017

ClementofA said:
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. (Jude 6)

Jude 6 says the angels are kept in everlasting chains to the day of judgement. There is no indication that the chains are finite. The implication is that the period of time they are kept in those chains is finite, until the day of judgement. Then they are loosed from those everlasting chains, which may be a way of referring to the eternal power of God.
If the chains themselves were only temporary, then the writer would have left out the word "everlasting" in regards to the chains.

They will ultimately be reconciled to God (Col.1:20).

I understand that is your erroneous theory, but that doesn't match the text in Jude, where verse 7 describes their fate;
Then they will no longer be needed, since everything in that fire is destroyed. Like Sodom and Gomorrah are destroyed (Jude 7)

Dartman · Jul 5, 2017

ClementofA said:
None of these verses say the punishment of anyone will have "no end" or be "endless". Since Jesus never used any language like that, when He easily could have repeatedly, He did not teach any kind of endless punishment or torments.

Those verses are easily harmonized with the Scriptural teaching of universalism, the salvation of all:

"So God said to Noah, "I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth." (Gen.6:13)

The "end" of all people was "destruction" by God (Gen.6:13). This already happened. Yet they are not annihilated forever. And they will be resurrected.

You are intentionally avoiding the point. Those people are entirely gone now. AND, the Scriptures state those that are judged to be "wicked" will be destroyed like them, in 2nd death.

ANY claim that there is ANYTHING for those sentenced to 2nd death is in direct conflict with the Scriptures, and has the burden of PROOF.

ClementofA · Jul 5, 2017

Dartman said:
I understand that is your erroneous theory, but that doesn't match the text in Jude, where verse 7 describes their fate;
Then they will no longer be needed, since everything in that fire is destroyed. Like Sodom and Gomorrah are destroyed (Jude 7)

The proper translation is important. Compare the "Interlinear" for Jude 7 via this site:

Jude 1 Interlinear Bible

The Interlinear there says it is not "suffering the vengeance of eternal fire", as some versions say, but the cities are "set forth as an example", "undergoing the penalty of fire aionion".

Similarly, a literal version reads:

7 As Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them in like manner to these committing ultra-prostitution, and coming away after other flesh, are lying before us, a specimen, experiencing the justice of fire eonian." (Jude 7, CLNT)

"7 The destruction of Sodom and the surrounding cities is still apparent to all who visit the region. In this way these cities are experiencing the justice of eonian fire. The fire has long ceased but its effects will remain and testify to God's judgment until the close of this eon, after which Sodom shall return to her former estate (Ezek.16:53-56)" (Concordant Commentary of the New Testament, p.376)
Concordant Commentary on the New Testament

"We likewise subscribe to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, who "are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire" (Jude 7). This occurred many centuries ago. How poor a passage to apply to that which is thousands of years hence!"

"The word "set forth" is, literally, "lying before." The term "example" or specimen, is from the word show. These are readily comprehended if we apply them to the sites of Sodom and Gomorrah today. Their destruction was so complete that their exact location is in dispute. Now the preponderance of opinion places them under the shallow end of the Dead Sea. No one can visit this terrible desolation without fully appreciating the force of these words."

"But we are asked to forget this solemn and forceful scene for an "example" which no one can see, and which is not at all "set forth" or "lying before" us. We are asked to forget the fire (Gen.19:24) which destroyed these cities so that the smoke of the plain went up like the smoke of a furnace. The justice or "vengeance" of this fire is all too evident to this very day. It is a powerful reminder of God's judgment which should deter those who are tempted to follow a similar path. This fire is called "eternal." Just now the plain is covered by water, not fire. It was an eonian fire, as is witnessed by its effect for the eon."

"Speaking of Jerusalem, Ezekiel gives us God's thoughts concerning Sodom. "As I live, saith the Lord God, Sodom thy sister hath not done, she nor her daughters, as thou hast done, thou and thy daughters." And again, "When I shall bring again their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters...then will I bring again the captivity of thy captives in the midst of them...when thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate" (Ezek.16:48,53,55)."

"2 Peter 2:6 gives a parallel passage, where we read that God condemns the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, reducing them to cinders by an overthrow, having placed them for an example. This is perfectly plain, unless we try to distinguish between the cities and the people, and make conscious cinders suffer from flames beneath the waters of the Dead Sea."

"If the Sodomites were on public exhibition where all could see them suffering in the flames of a medieval hell, we might consider them as set forth as an example, but as no one has ever seen them, and no one can see them, they are no example at all. The cities, however, are lying before us as a specimen of God's eonian justice. The effects of the fire endure for the eon. When Jerusalem is restored, they will be restored."

A Reply To “Universalism Refuted” Part Seven

ClementofA · Jul 5, 2017

Dartman said:
You are intentionally avoiding the point. Those people are entirely gone now.

Nobody is gone forever. The resurrection of all is coming.

For no one is cast off by the Lord forever. (Lam.3:31)

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Dartman · Jul 5, 2017

ClementofA said:
The proper translation is important. Compare the "Interlinear" for Jude 7 via this site:

Jude 1 Interlinear Bible

The Interlinear there says it is not "suffering the vengeance of eternal fire", as some versions say, but the cities are "set forth as an example", "undergoing the penalty of fire aionion".

Again, you are intentionally attempting to distract from the point. The chains last ONLY until "the judgement of the great day". Their end is to be exactly like Sodom and Gomorrah are NOW!! Their lack of existence is a classic example of God's judgement!!
I know this doesn't match your agenda, but that merely proves your agenda needs to change.

Dartman · Jul 5, 2017

ClementofA said:
Nobody is gone forever. The resurrection of all is coming.

You are avoiding the issue. The END of the wicked is to be like Sodom and Gomorrah are NOW! Gone!

ClementofA said:
For no one is cast off by the Lord forever. (Lam.3:31)

You're slashing this out of context. This passage is talking about the restoration of the NATION of Israel, it isn't talking about your theory. No Scripture explains your theory!
The end of the wicked is "not be", "not be found", "ashes", "burned up", "left neither root nor branch", etc.

gordonhooker · Jul 5, 2017

It looks as though we are going to end up with every verse of the Bible that has the word 'eternal' in it so I figured I would save some time and provide a listing for everyone to pick and choose from:

NRSV with Strong’s

New Revised Standard Version of the Bible with Key Numbers (NRSVS)

The Scripture quotations contained herein are from the New Revised Standard Version of the Bible, copyrighted, 1989 by the Division of Christian Education of the National Council of the Churches of Christ in the United States of America, and are used by permission. All rights reserved.
Strong’s Number tagging ©2010 OakTree Software, Inc.

Version 3.5

Analysis of hits for every book including the apocryphal books:

Total number of verses = 93
(total number of verses displayed = 576)

eternal (94 total words)

Number of different forms = 7:
(Triple-click a form to see its occurrences)

Eternal = 1
(No Key number) = 1
eternal = 93
G0126 aidios ἀΐδιος = 2
G0165 aion αἰών = 1
G0166 aionios αἰώνιος = 67
H5703 ‘ad עַד = 1
H5769 ‘owlam, ‘olam עוֹלָם, עֹלָם = 2
(No Key number) = 20

Concordance:

Eternal (1)
3Mac. 6:12 O Eternal One, who have all might and

eternal (93)
Gen 49:26; Eccl 12:5; Jer 20:11; Hab 3:6; Tob 3:6; 14:7, 10; Wis 7:26; 17:2; Sir 1:15; 16:27; 17:12; 30:17; 46:19; Sus 1:42; 2 Mac 1:25; 3 Mac 7:16; 4 Mac 9:9; 10:15; 12:12; 13:15; 15:3; 17:18; Matt 18:8; 19:16, 29; 25:41, 46; Mark 3:29; 10:17, 30; 16:8; Luke 10:25; 16:9; 18:18, 30; John 3:15–16, 36; 4:14, 36; 5:24, 39; 6:27, 40, 47, 54, 68; 10:28; 12:25, 50; 17:2–3; Acts 13:46, 48; Rom 1:20; 2:7; 5:21; 6:22–23; 16:26; 2 Cor 4:17–5:1; Gal 6:8; Eph 3:11; 2 Th 1:9; 2:16; 1 Tim 1:16; 6:12, 16; 2 Tim 2:10; Titus 1:2; 3:7; Heb 5:9; 6:2; 9:12, 14–15; 13:20; 1 Pet 5:10; 2 Pet 1:11; 1 John 1:2; 2:25; 3:15; 5:11, 13, 20; Jude 1:6–7, 21; Rev 14:6

Hope this helps

ClementofA · Jul 6, 2017

Der Alter said:
Aionios was not ambiguous to Origen, the Uni poster boy.

Since he was a universalist have you provided any evidence that he understood aionios in Mt.25:46 re punishment as anything but finite duration that ends? No.

Evidently the Greek Old Testament (LXX, Septuagint) uses aionios of finite duration:

I have considered the days of old, the years of ancient(aionios) times. (Psa.77:5)

Don’t move the ancient(aionios) boundary stone, which your fathers have set up. (Prov.22:28)

Don’t move the ancient(aionios) boundary stone. Don’t encroach on the fields of the fatherless: (Prov.23:10)

Those from among you will rebuild the ancient(aionios) ruins; You will raise up the age-old(aionios) foundations;... (Isa 58:12a)

Thus says the Lord Yahweh: Because the enemy has said against you, Aha! and, The ancient(aionios) high places are ours in possession; (Ezek.36:2)

Because of thy having an enmity age-during(aionios)... (Ezek.35:5a)

They will rebuild the perpetual(aionios) ruins and restore the places that were desolate; (Isa.61:4a)

I went down to the bottoms of the mountains. The earth barred me in forever(aionios): yet have you brought up my life from the pit, Yahweh my God. (Jonah 2:6)

He beat back His foes; He gave them lasting(aionios) shame. (Psa.78:66)

Will you keep the old(aionios) way, which wicked men have trodden (Job 22:15)

Will it make an agreement with you for you to take it as your slave for life(aionios)? (Job 41:4)

’Will you not fear me?" says The Lord "will you not be cautious in front of my face? The One who appointed the sand to be the boundary to the sea, by perpetual(aionios) decree, that it will not cross over though it will be agitated it is not able and though the waves resound within her yet she will not overstep it. (Jer.5:22)

Their land will be an object of horror and of lasting(aionios) scorn; all who pass by will be appalled and will shake their heads. (Jer.18:16)

Behold I will send, and take all the kindreds of the north, saith the Lord, and Nabuchodonosor the king of Babylon my servant: and I will bring them against this land, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all the nations that are round about it: and I will destroy them, and make them an astonishment and a hissing, and perpetual(aionios) desolations. (Jer.25:9)

And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans; and I will make it perpetual(aionios) desolations. (Jer.25:12)

In their heat I will make their feasts, and I will make them drunken, that they may rejoice, and sleep a perpetual(aionios) sleep, and not wake, saith the LORD. (Jer.51:39)

When I shall bring thee down with them that descend into the pit, with the people of old time, and shall set thee in the low parts of the earth, in places desolate of old(aionios), with them that go down to the pit, that thou be not inhabited; and I shall set glory in the land of the living; (Ezek.26:20)

I will make you a perpetual(aionios) desolation, and your cities shall not be inhabited; and you shall know that I am Yahweh. (Ezek.35:9)

From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian(aionios) life and these to reproach for eonian(aionios) repulsion. (Daniel 12:2)

Thus says Yahweh, “Stand in the ways and see, and ask for the old(aionios) paths, ‘Where is the good way?’ and walk in it, and you will find rest for your souls. But they said, ‘We will not walk in it.’ (Jer.6:16)

For my people have forgotten me, they have burned incense to false gods; and they have been made to stumble in their ways, in the ancient(aionios) paths, to walk in byways, in a way not built up; (Jer.18:15)

Then he remembered the days of old(aionios), Moses and his people, saying, Where is he who brought them up out of the sea with the shepherds of his flock?where is he who put his holy Spirit in the midst of them? (Isa.63:11)

******************************************************

"...it doesn't say what most evangelizers of hopelessness want it to say in that regard either."

"It is false, he maintained, to translate that phrase as "everlasting punishment," introducing into the New Testament the concept found in the Islamic Quran that God is going to torture the wicked forever."

Der Alte · Jul 6, 2017

ClementofA said:
Since he was a universalist have you provided any evidence that he understood aionios in Mt.25:46 re punishment as anything but finite duration that ends? No.

No such evidence exists because I can't find where Origen ever quotes Matthew 25:46. I wonder why Origen, the poster boy of UR, never explains that verse?

Evidently the Greek Old Testament (LXX, Septuagint) uses aionios of finite duration:

Evidently that is irrelevant. That is not the way translation is done.

(Psa.77:5)(Prov.22:28)(Prov.23:10) (Isa 58:12a)(Ezek.36:2) (Ezek.35:5a) (Isa.61:4a)(Jonah 2:6) (Psa.78:66)(Job 22:15)(Job 41:4)(Jer.5:22) (Jer.18:16)(Jer.25:9)(Jer.25:12)(Jer.51:39)
(Ezek.26:20)
(Ezek.35:9)
(Daniel 12:2)
(Jer.6:16)
(Jer.18:15)
(Isa.63:11)

What a pity that someone wasted so much time copy/pasting all this from tents-я-us and it means absolutely nothing for translating any word.

"It is false, he maintained, to translate that phrase as "everlasting punishment," introducing into the New Testament the concept found in the Islamic Quran that God is going to torture the wicked forever."

Such total rubbish. There was a belief in everlasting, unending, eternal fiery punishment in Judaism hundreds of years before Islam. I have documented that more than once in these discussions. Any scholar who would make this claim does not deserve to be called a scholar. Now according to the 1917 Jewish Publication Society translation. I'm sure the native Hebrew speaking Jewish scholars who translated this version knew the meaning of עולם /olam and used it correctly.

Genesis 9:16
(16) And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting [עולם /olam] covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.'
Genesis 21:33
(33) And Abraham planted a tamarisk-tree in Beer-sheba, and called there on the name of the LORD, the Everlasting [עולם /olam] God.
Exodus 3:15
(15) And God said moreover unto Moses: 'Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel: The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you; this is My name for ever, [עולם /olam] and this is My memorial unto all generations.
Deuteronomy 32:40
(40) For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever. [עולם /olam]\
Judges 2:1
(1) And the angel of the LORD came up from Gilgal to Bochim. And he said: '...I made you to go up out of Egypt, and have brought you unto the land which I swore unto your fathers; and I said: I will never [עולם /olam] break My covenant with you;
1Chronicles 16:34
(34) O give thanks unto the LORD; for He is good; for His mercy endureth for ever.[עולם /olam]
1 Chronicles 29:10
(10) Wherefore David blessed the LORD before all the congregation; and David said: 'Blessed be Thou, O LORD, the God of Israel our father, for ever [עולם /olam] and ever.[עד/ad]
Psalms 10:16
(16) The LORD is King for ever [עולם /olam] and ever; [עד/ad] the nations are perished out of His land.
Ecclesiastes 3:14
(14) I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever; [עולם /olam] nothing can be added to it, nor any thing taken from it; and God hath so made it, that men should fear before Him.
Isaiah 9:7
(7) (9:6) That the government may be increased, and of peace there be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it through justice and through righteousness from henceforth even for ever. [עולם /olam] The zeal of the LORD of hosts doth perform this.

ClementofA · Jul 6, 2017

Der Alter said:
No such evidence exists because I can't find where Origen ever quotes Matthew 25:46. I wonder why Origen, the poster boy of UR, never explains that verse?

Who can say how many of his works were destroyed by Damnationists during 1200 years of dark ages, Inquisitions, Crusades, & burning of the opposition.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

ClementofA · Jul 6, 2017

Der Alter said:
Evidently that is irrelevant. That is not the way translation is done.

What a pity that someone wasted so much time copy/pasting all this from tents-я-us and it means absolutely nothing for translating any word.

I never mentioned "translation".

Neither did i copy paste from "tents-я-us". Whatever gave you that idea?

Der Alter said:
Such total rubbish. There was a belief in everlasting, unending, eternal fiery punishment in Judaism hundreds of years before Islam.

No one said otherwise.

Judaism, such as the Sad-You-Sees & Pharisees of Jesus' earthly life:

"Jesus warned His disciples to “watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees,” which was their false teaching (Matt. 16:6,12)."

"Not giving heed to Jewish myths, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:14). Jesus said re the Pharisees: "...in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men." (Mt.15:8-9)

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Tim.3:16)

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Der Alter said:
Now according to the 1917 Jewish Publication Society translation. I'm sure the native Hebrew speaking Jewish scholars who translated this version knew the meaning of

Der Alter said:
עולם /olam and used it correctly.

What gives you so much faith in the translations of biased non Christians whose ancestors were the Pharisees?

JPS Tanakh 1917
For the Lord will not cast off For ever.
For though He cause grief, yet will He have compassion According to the multitude of His mercies. For He doth not afflict willingly, Nor grieve the children of men. (Lam. 3:31-3)

********************************************************

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

"...it doesn't say what most evangelizers of hopelessness want it to say in that regard either."

"It is false, he maintained, to translate that phrase as "everlasting punishment," introducing into the New Testament the concept found in the Islamic Quran that God is going to torture the wicked forever."

Der Alte · Jul 7, 2017

ClementofA said:
Who can say how many of his works were destroyed by Damnationists during 1200 years of dark ages, Inquisitions, Crusades, & burning of the opposition.

Oh yes. Now let us construct an entire doctrine based on what Origen might have written but now might be destroyed.

Der Alte · Jul 7, 2017

ClementofA said:
I never mentioned "translation".

If not what was your purpose for posting all those verses?

Neither did i copy paste from "tents-я-us". Whatever gave you that idea?

You call it tentmakers, I call it tents-я-us. Once upon a time there was another uni website called "Hellbusters" that was frequently copy/pasted here. I called them "hellmakers" and "tentbusters." I know their writing style and I know yours.

No one said otherwise.

Your quote implied that the Biblical concept of Hell was copied from the Quran.

Judaism, such as the Sad-You-Sees & Pharisees of Jesus' earthly life:

Irrelevant. My quotes reflect the beliefs and practices in Judaism during Jesus' lifetime.

"Jesus warned His disciples to “watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees,” which was their false teaching (Matt. 16:6,12)."
"Not giving heed to Jewish myths, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:14). Jesus said re the Pharisees: "...in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men." (Mt.15:8-9)

All irrelevant unless you can show specifically anything I quoted which Jesus directly addressed. Since you can't do that your out-of-context scriptures are evasive and non-responsive. But that is to be expected from unis whose source of truth is tents-я-us

What gives you so much faith in the translations of biased non Christians whose ancestors were the Pharisees?

JPS Tanakh 1917
For the Lord will not cast off For ever.
For though He cause grief, yet will He have compassion According to the multitude of His mercies. For He doth not afflict willingly, Nor grieve the children of men. (Lam. 3:31-3)

Already answered. This question implies a logical fallacy, poisoning the well.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

As I said the Uni source of "truth." Here is the condition for Lam 3:31-33

Jeremiah 4:1
(1) If thou wilt return, O Israel, saith the LORD, return unto me: and if thou wilt put away thine abominations out of my sight, then shalt thou not remove.
Malachi 3:7
(7) Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the LORD of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return?

Universalism...why not?

Which is it?

God doesn't want all men to be saved.

God can't do what he wants to do.

Neither, God will continue to work on unrepentant souls because his love & patience are unending.

Don't know...never thought about this before.

This is me about 1 yr. old.

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This is me about 1 yr. old.

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Franciscan tssf

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This is me about 1 yr. old.

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This is me about 1 yr. old.

This is me about 1 yr. old.

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