On Free Will

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Hammster

Psalm 144:1
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You can't refute the wedding garments as your righteous acts, so you try to give me passages which have nothing to do with the wedding supper. Stay on track. Do not take that southbound train again.
I didn't say the wedding garments weren't righteous acts. That wasn't the question you asked.
 
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Hammster

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Have you ever read that passage? It does say to those who have ears to hear.
I did read it. If you want to argue that it says something it doesn't, go right ahead.
 
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Hammster

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You are like a broken washing machine. You just go round and round, but nothing gets clean.
You can stop with the insults. Violating forum rules is not righteous.
 
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Hammster

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Isn't a broken washing machine one that doesn't go "round and round"?
I just had to buy one last night because my old one stopped going round and round.
 
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TheSeabass

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On the quote on 2nd Thessalonians, I believe you are out of the contextual narrative.

2 Thessalonians: 1. 6. Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 7. And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8. In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9. Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

This has nothing to do with a 21 year old who never received the Gospel.
The people Paul speaks about clearly no not God because they do not obey the Gospel.

Billy Graham was misquoted many years ago about buddhist being in Heaven.
His point was God would find a way for the buddhist to know the Gospel.
His saying you may see buddest in Heaven was intended to mean were once buddhist but have been saved from this.
I'm sure that Calvinist believe otherwise,that they were never meant for salvation in the first place.

2 Thess 1:8 applies to anyone and everyone. I see no exceptions made to 21 year olds (or anyone else) anywhere in the context. One cannot be saved unless he obeys the gospel. Therefore there is no salvation to them that 'know not' the gospel of Christ

If salvation can be found outside the gospel of Christ, then Christ died in vain. This is Paul's point to those in Galatia that allowed them selves to be removed from the gospel and taken back to the law of Moses. If one could be made righteous by that OT law, then Christ died in vain. Likewise if one can be made righteous apart from the NT gospel, Christ died in vain. The gospel should not be preached, people should be left in their ignorance if ignorance saves.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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Billy Graham was misquoted many years ago about buddhist being in Heaven.
His point was God would find a way for the buddhist to know the Gospel.
His saying you may see buddest in Heaven was intended to mean were once buddhist but have been saved from this.
I'm sure that Calvinist believe otherwise,that they were never meant for salvation in the first place.

Not a misquote.
 
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Wordkeeper

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So what are we saved from? (And no, I don't think we are saved from hell)

Which view is right:


What Are We Saved for? | Desiring God

Quote
Gospel
might not have meant very much. Forgiveness might not have meant very much. Saved might not have meant very much. Life might not have meant very much. But pleasure, I want that. Joy that is full and never ending. Do you see those two modifiers? Full does not mean 90% proof, but 100% proof — pleasure, joy. And then everlasting means that it never comes to an end. I am not interested in your offer of 800 years of pleasure. No, thank you. I want it to last forever.

Breaking News, Analysis, Politics, Blogs, News Photos, Video, Tech Reviews - TIME.com
TIME: Has anyone you've talked to expressed disappointment at the loss of the old view?

Wright: Yes, you might get disappointment in the case where somebody has recently gone through the death of somebody they love and they are wanting simply to be with them. And I'd say that's understandable. But the end of Revelation describes a marvelous human participation in God's plan. And in almost all cases, when I've explained this to people, there's a sense of excitement and a sense of, "Why haven't we been told this before?"
 
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Hammster

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Which view is right:


What Are We Saved for? | Desiring God

Quote
Gospel
might not have meant very much. Forgiveness might not have meant very much. Saved might not have meant very much. Life might not have meant very much. But pleasure, I want that. Joy that is full and never ending. Do you see those two modifiers? Full does not mean 90% proof, but 100% proof — pleasure, joy. And then everlasting means that it never comes to an end. I am not interested in your offer of 800 years of pleasure. No, thank you. I want it to last forever.

Breaking News, Analysis, Politics, Blogs, News Photos, Video, Tech Reviews - TIME.com
TIME: Has anyone you've talked to expressed disappointment at the loss of the old view?

Wright: Yes, you might get disappointment in the case where somebody has recently gone through the death of somebody they love and they are wanting simply to be with them. And I'd say that's understandable. But the end of Revelation describes a marvelous human participation in God's plan. And in almost all cases, when I've explained this to people, there's a sense of excitement and a sense of, "Why haven't we been told this before?"
I'll try again (if you aren't going to answer, then just don't respond).

So what are we saved from? (And no, I don't think we are saved from hell)
 
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TheSeabass

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Yet you excuse infants and the mentally incompetent, who do not know God and who do not have a knowledge of or belief in the gospel of Jesus Christ. Could you please show me where Scripture teaches that 2 Thessalonians 1:8 does not apply to infants and mentally incompetent people? In other words, where does the bible teach that children and the mentally incompetent are excused for unbelief, but only mentally competent adults have no excuse?

For your information, Catholics, Lutherans, and many others hold to original sin, but do not teach that infants and the mentally incompetent are lost (I think that some reformed Christians hold this, but you would need to ask them about that).

Infants and the mentally disabled do not have the capacity to believe therefore are not accountable to the command to believe, (at least until infants mature into youths (Genesis 8:21), learning right from wrong (Isaiah 7:15-16) then they become accountable to God's commands.) Holding infants and the mentally disabled to commands of God when they cannot even comprehend them would be like holding a man born without legs accountable for not being able to walk.

Sin is the reason people are lost. If infants are conceived or born with sin and die/aborted/still born, then they will be lost for not having sins forgiven.
 
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TheSeabass

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What did Adam eat? From what tree are we eating has to do with "Where art thou?" that God asked Adam...and Adam first perceived he was naked and ashamed...his eye sight changed.

Jesus' words about single of eye and becoming blind are the same truth as it pertains to us and sin.
Adam ate from a tree he was forbidden to eat from. Therefore was Adam a sinner BEFORE he transgressed? No. Neither is anyone else a sinner BEFORE they sin.
 
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TheSeabass

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Scripture says For ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

Paul is talking about all who are capable of sinning and have chosen to sin. Infants are not capable of sinning. Christ as an adult was capable of sinning but chose not to.
 
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Albion

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Adam ate from a tree he was forbidden to eat from. Therefore was Adam a sinner BEFORE he transgressed? No. Neither is anyone else a sinner BEFORE they sin.
Not so. What you are referring to is called "actual sin." But the Bible teaches that all men, by virtue of our fallen nature, are born in sin. That is sometimes referred to as "original sin" but there are debates over the exact nature of original sin, so let's just point out that a person is in sin even before committing an actual sin.
 
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TheSeabass

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So sheep and anyone else can enter? Or just sheep?
John 10:9 ".... if any man enter in...."

So anyone can enter but not of Christ until they do enter.

John 10:9 "I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved..."

The order of the verse has "enter in" BEFORE "saved"

-----

John 10:27 Jesus said:
1) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me
or
2) My sheep do not hear my voice, and I know them, and they do not follow me?

Obviously Christ said #1 for it is not possible to be of Christ without ever having heard or followed Him. Not possible for one to be a sheep of Christ if sheep does not even know who the Shepherd is.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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John 10:9 ".... if any man enter in...."

So anyone can enter but not of Christ until they do enter.

John 10:9 "I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved..."

The order of the verse has "enter in" BEFORE "saved"

-----

John 10:27 Jesus said:
1) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me
or
2) My sheep do not hear my voice, and I know them, and they do not follow me?

Obviously Christ said #1 for it is not possible to be of Christ without ever having heard or followed Him. Not possible for one to be a sheep of Christ if sheep does not even know who the Shepherd is.

The sheep know His voice *before* they enter in. They come to Him because they are His sheep. They are lost sheep, and then found sheep, but they are always sheep, which is exactly what He says about those who are His own.
 
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