The Double Message of Eternal Security.

stuart lawrence · Jul 6, 2017

1stcenturylady said:
To my understanding those two are both Arminian as far as sin goes. And many Catholics are Spirit-filled. But the Catholic "holy traditions" separates them from all other denominations, not just Pentecostals. I don't know which two I would choose to be the furthest apart. Personally, I want EVERYTHING God has to offer, so full-gospel is a MUST for me.

I was chatting to a catholic online a few years back. He was telling me about his Christian walk.
He strove to live a sinless life. When he failed he went to confession to get cleansed of his sin so he was back in relationship with God. Then he set off again striving to live a sinless life, when he failed, back to the priest.
I was literally stunned, apart from going to see the priest bit he described to a Tee my Christian walk in the pentecostal church of my youth. I felt such affinity with him and how I was then

stuart lawrence · Jul 6, 2017

1stcenturylady said:
To my understanding those two are both Arminian as far as sin goes. And many Catholics are Spirit-filled. But the Catholic "holy traditions" separates them from all other denominations, not just Pentecostals. I don't know which two I would choose to be the furthest apart. Personally, I want EVERYTHING God has to offer, so full-gospel is a MUST for me. While others find the gifts anathema.

Is the law sin? Absolutely not. I wouldn't have known what sin was apart from the law. But through the knowledge of the commandment: thou shalt not covet, all manner of concupiscence was aroused in me. Sin took advantage of the commandment to do that.
I remember as an adult looking back to the time before I got born again, the time before I knew in my heart of God's good and holy laws. I had felt alive then, a normal, healthy kid, but once in my heart I knew the Commandments, I died/ felt condemned. For when the commandment came to me, sin consciousness sprang to life, and made me feel condemned.
The Commandments I believed were ordained to life, if I obeyed them, instead brought death/ condemnation for I could not keep them. Sin in me took occasion of the commandment and by it slew me. Yet I knew the problem was not Gods good and holy laws, but my sin. I, had become exceedingly sinful.

Paul the Christian looking back to the result of being aware of Gods good and holy laws as a young pharisee:

What shall we say then, is the law sin? God forbid, nay, I had not known sin but by the law, for I had not known lust except the law had said: Thou shalt not covet. But sin, taking occasion by the commandment wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
For I was alive without the law once, but when the commandment came sin revived( or sin consciousness sprang to life) and I died/ felt condemned, and the commandment that was ordained to life I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment deceived me, and by it slew me.
Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, just and good.
Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good. That sin, by the commandment might become exceeding sinful
Rom7:7-13

stuart lawrence · Jul 6, 2017

For sin shall no longer be your master, for you are not under law but under grace rom6:14

ToBeLoved · Jul 6, 2017

Jason0047 said:
Eternal Security or a belief that says: "No Sin Can Separate You From God" is a belief that seeks to justify sin. Paul says have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. Now, I do not quote Scripture out of malice, but out of love because I actually do care for men's souls so as to lead them to the knowledge of the truth.

...

That is not true at all.

I am sure that many OSAS believers live much holier lives than you do, we only know that we do not have to please you or any man.

Your excuse can only be to say that we condone sin. It is the only way someone who thinks. Like you do can try to understand us. But you tell untruths over and over because the truth is not in you.

corinth77777 · Jul 6, 2017

.m yho

Jason0047 said:
Dear 1st Century Lady:

Well, I am commanded by God to pray, do good, and to love my enemies.
So I do not hate Stuart, but I love him and desire him to see what I see.
I believe in hating the sin and loving the sinner.
But that does not mean I am in acceptance of wrong doctrines or sin.

You have to understand the reasons why we are not chummy with each other. Stuart no doubt hates my belief because he thinks I am telling others to do things that I myself don't do (When that is not the case). Actually, I am telling people to obey God's commands in the New Testament as a part of the goal in the process of Sanctification. Nowhere am I saying for them to obey all of the NT commands so as to be saved; And nor am I saying they can obey all of the NT commands overnight. It takes time to do the study and to place these command in your heart.

Now, I hate Stuart's belief (and I do not hate Stuart as a person) because while he may make claims that a believer will live holy, I think he is also justifying a sin and still be saved type doctrine because he has admitted to me before that the keeping of the moral law does not relate to our salvation in any way. He also said before that he sins and is not perfect and that God is faithful to him when he does sin (Whatever that means). However, I see it as if you tell a person that they are saved by having a belief on Jesus and it is not in anything they do, I do not see how that gospel message leads a believer to living holy as he suggests. A person cannot sin and yet also be holy. I see such a belief leading it's listeners to live in sin with the thinking they are saved. For if a a law was passed tomorrow that said that there is no speed limit on the highway, then more people are going to do the wrong thing and speed and get into car accidents. This all sounds like Eternal Security. If such is the case, then there are testimonies of people who have came out of Eternal Security who felt trapped or enslaved to their sin. Then there are testimonies of others who I believe were destroyed because of their belief in OSAS.

Just check out these testimonies below.

Ex OSAS Audio Testimonies:
Testimonies of former eternal security believers

Suicide & OSAS:
A tragic story of an OSAS believer.

A Pastor's Testimony on OSAS:
A testimony about OSAS by a Pastor's wife.

Hooked on Sin & OSAS:
Out Of Darkness | NO Eternal Security | Christian Testimony

Mass Murder, Suicide, & OSAS:
George Sodini

Now, Stuart may or may not believe in Eternal Security, but he definitely holds to the belief that "Sin does not separate a believer from God" by what he has said here on the forums. However, this belief is no different than Eternal Security because both beliefs seek to justify sin (Regardless of whether or not they say to you or others that a believer is marked by living a more holy life). That is the deception. They may tell you the Westboro Baptist church is not saved or the church that is into sexual immorality is not saved, but If you pay close attention to their words, they also say they can sin and be saved in their state of sin, too. What sins? To what extent? We do not know. That is what this thread is all about. Eternal Security preaches a two fold message.

Anyways, I hope this helps.
May God bless you.
And please be well.

Sincerely,

~ Jason.

...

If you are doing the best you can with what you know....that's all that would seem to be required.

stuart lawrence · Jul 6, 2017

1stcenturylady said:
As I said, I'm not speaking for either of you again. You both think the worst of each other, and refuse to acknowledge any good. So knock yourselves out.

You said I only gave one side if the message. Let's see if I can please you lol

For we maintain a man is justified/ righteous by faith apart from observing the law
Rom3:28

You see that a person is justified by what he does, and not by faith alone
James2:24

They appear in contradiction at first glance don't they!

A man becomes a Christian. He beats his wife, gets drunk every night of the week, is a habitual thief and constantly uses foul language.
God will accept him there and then as he is. For we are made alive with Christ, even when we are dead in transgression/ sin Eph2:5
The man is called to believe the message of scripture. His righteousness for heaven is faith in Christ. He is not under a righteousness of observing the law. No condemnation.( Rom3:28)

Now if that man has had a true con version, the law is in his heart, and he in his heart wants to obey it. And of course he has the Holy Spirit. If he lives according to Pauls gospel message, sin shall not be his master, for he is not under law but under grace. The power of sin is removed from his life.(1 cor15:56)
This must and will bring results.
A couple of months later the man still beats his wife. He still continually gets drunk, he is still a habitual thief, and he still constantly uses foul language. Something's wrong isn't it.
His faith has not been seen to be justified by any change in his life has it. He had dead faith( james2:26) that produced nothing. He wasn't truly born again in the first place.
So Paul is right and James is also right.
It's impossible to understand this with the logical mind. You have to know you are not under a righteousness of thou shalt not. We agree. But if you have asked Christ to be your Lord and Saviour, and the law is in your heart. Living a life with the power of sin removed from you( a law of righteousness) must bring results.

But what you CANNOT and MUST NOT do is to tell a new convert that unless they cease their sin/ lust/ gambling/drinking too much, (or whatever else you want to think) God will condemn them to hell for they are not proving they are truly saved. If you tell them that, they WILL inevitably live under a righteousness of observing the law. For them the deciding factor of their salvation is a righteousness of ceasing sin/ observing the law. They don't then have the true message.
Preach the true message. They are not under law but under grace, and see what then happens.

I hope you understand what I am saying here. I think you might. You understand about the pink bunny!
Grace is illogical to the human brain. You must know you have no righteousness of observing the law/ works of the law/ working to defeat your sin to see victory over sin. No victory over sin, you either were not shown grace, or you did not have a true and sincere conversion

corinth77777 · Jul 6, 2017

ToBeLoved said:
That is not true at all.

I am sure that many OSAS believers live much holier lives than you do, we only know that we do not have to please you or any man.

Your excuse can only be to say that we condone sin. It is the only way someone who thinks. Like you do can try to understand us. But you tell untruths over and over because the truth is not in you.

I don't believe that's his heart.
This comes down to the fuller Gospel...
Trust Jesus and in Him you will find everything you need including forgiveness of sin.

This order is important
Why?
For many of those who are evangelize to believe Jesus died and rose. Before coming into belief that He is the son of God and Lord...and before trusting in who He is, not just what he's done.

May see believing the death, burial, and resurrection as the assurances of heaven when they die.

We are affected by what we believe
For many of us there is no transformation into the image of Christ? [which is also a part of salvation]
Why because many of us that were evangelize that way only see grace,forgiveness, salvation in a one tunnel vision.

For if we already have Heaven when we die...then many of us do not see the reason why we should obey[trust]Him now.

But we miss the whole salvation experience : that God wants to truly destroy the works of satin in our lives
And to purify himself a people who are zealous of good works

The salvation experience begins in trusting Him. Not just believing what HE DID to secure your way into heaven.
He said Grace that appeared to all men teaches us to deny ungodliness and to live soberly and righteous in this present world.

When we learn to trust Him we find Grace in Him...and Grace is unmerrited favor....but What is this favor...it is God working on our behalf of what we cannot do on our own.
When we Trust Jesus...you will find God at work...and When you do you will be able to confess He is Lord...because you know you couldn't do what HE has done.
This is what regeneration amounts to;
He died and yes, so our sins could be washed away but He arose so that we would live our life through Him.
Somewhere When this happens we are translated into the kingdom of his dear son. So while Justification and regeneration may happen at the same time they are different
He died we receive forgiveness
He arose we live through His life

Trusting Him is heeding to His spirit
Where our lives are changed.
The outcome of being joined to Him in this way is The fruits of the spirit and we can abound in them increasingly setting our minds on things of the Spirit.
If you ever come to understand
That Jesus's Faithfulness is the source of our salvation and that no one died to secure this salvation But Him, then you may understand from the KJV that works of righteousness refferred to is what we do without God to try and secure our Salvation. The Ark was salvation from the wrath, but with no one in it it does not save anyone. It takes effort and a working faith to have entered the ark. But realize there is nothing we did to earn the Ark[Jesus's faithfulness=salvation]
Yet we must put in effort to get in. And so it is what you say that people assume where you are.
In first Peter 3 it tells us what saves us now.... the resurrection of Jesus Christ. And the key is as you walk in His resurrected life you know your sins are forgiven...so you will not have to argue once saved always saved Or what will happen when you die. For if you walk in the spirit the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all unrighteousness. And you will see there is no condemnation for those who walk after the spirit...yet there is life and peace which is what the Kingdom consist of.

I use to argue Osas ...But aguing from Our understanding that has come from..years of mistranslation does not change a person.
Sometimes ...if one really seeks God They must humble themselves and listen.

Not saying I can't believe Osas
But I see the area where it stunts sanctification which is also a part of salvation. Believing a particular teaching will not necessarily save a person....But trusting in Jesus will.
We must come through the door[JC] anyone that tries to come in another way is a robber and a thief.

I hope you accept this in Love ...

corinth77777 · Jul 6, 2017

Jason0047 said:
Well, before I address the spiritually born again believer and the Lord working in them, first, it must be clarified that believers obey the New Covenant Law and not the Old Covenant Law.

For Paul was not referring to all forms of "law" in Romans and Galatians. No verse actually says that. He primarily referred to the Old Covenant Law. This is evident in the fact that he spoke against "circumcision" in Romans 3:1, and Galatians 5:2.

Paul says there is Law under the New Covenant. In fact, he said that what he has written should be regarded as the Lord's Commandments (1 Corinthians 14:37). Paul also says if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). The New Testament mentions that there is:

(a) The Law of Christ (Galatians 6:2),
(b) The Royal Law (James 2:8),
(c) The Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:2).

Believing on the Lord Jesus Christ is a commandment (or law) (1 John 3:23), and repentance is a command (or law) (Acts of the Apostles 17:30). So I really do not see how God's Word is in opposition to Law in the New Testament as most Christians believe today. Jesus says if you love me, you will keep my commandments (John 14:15). Revelation towards the end says,

"Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie." (Revelation 22:14-15).

John says in his first epistle, "he that does righteousness is righteous" (1 John 3:7).

Second, please consider these verses, as well.

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).
"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." (James 2:17).
"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).
"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "
(1 Timothy 6:3-4).
"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).
"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).
"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).
"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).
"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).
"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).
"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).
"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).
"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).
"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).

And there are of course many more verses like these, as well.

DW? Please explain.

I am not arguing against the idea that a person needs to accept Jesus as their Savior, ask Him for forgiveness of their sins, and believe He died and was risen on their behalf as a part of being born again spiritually. A person who is born again spiritually will have a new heart with new desires. But from that point on, they will seek to obey God's commands in the New Testament by the Lord working in them. For a person cannot be saved without abiding in Christ (1 John 5:12). If one abides in Christ then primarily good fruit and not bad fruit will be evident in their life.

...

I'm not sure what you are arguing. Its hard when you don't say.

All I said was we do not keep the law by trying to keep the Law. We become the type of people who naturally do it.
That is by staying as close to Jesus "learning how to live our lives as If He were us.."
Agree we are not under the Law for righteousness, however we establish the law of God through Christ. Why? Because we love. The outcome of the renewing the mind through the spirit.
Is liken to; first make the inside of the cup clean then the outside will be clean as well...or it is not what goes in the body that defiled it but what comes out. Or a clean fountain doesn't produce dirty water.
The fruit of the spirit Is love. And love does no harm to it's neighbor, love holds no records of wrong, love is not puffed up....etc..all that love does is the answer to establishing the law.
But I don't look to the Law, I look to Christ...And the spiritual commands.
The law of faith, law of Love ; Law of Christ,
The law of the life giving spirit

Dan61861 · Jul 6, 2017

1stcenturylady said:
You said stuart "has admitted to me before that the keeping of the moral law does not relate to our salvation in any way."

The moral law is holy, and the Jews had it also. But their flesh was still roaring like a lion. Nothing could tame the beast until Jesus gave us His own Spirit to calm the savage flesh. That is the same as what stuart and I have discussed, so I know what he believes. It is not the law that can save us, because being told not to do something, creates a craving for the forbidden fruit. That is what Romans 7 is about. It called that law the law of sin and death. But Romans 8 is saying 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

So when you say we are still under the law of sin and death, when Paul just said we are free from it, stuart balks, because he believes it is ONLY the law of the Spirit of life in Christ that we are really under, and saves us. Not both, as you have said. The moral law just says to not murder. But the law of the Spirit of life in Christ prevents us from even hating.

Very Very well said

In Christ
Daniel

Bible Highlighter · Jul 6, 2017

corinth77777 said:
I don't believe that's his heart.
This comes down to the fuller Gospel...
Trust Jesus and in Him you will find everything you need including forgiveness of sin.

This order is important
Why?
For many of those who are evangelize to believe Jesus died and rose. Before coming into belief that He is the son of God and Lord...and before trusting in who He is, not just what he's done.

May see believing the death, burial, and resurrection as the assurances of heaven when they die.

We are affected by what we believe
For many of us there is no transformation into the image of Christ? [which is also a part of salvation]
Why because many of us that were evangelize that way only see grace,forgiveness, salvation in a one tunnel vision.

For if we already have Heaven when we die...then many of us do not see the reason why we should obey[trust]Him now.

But we miss the whole salvation experience : that God wants to truly destroy the works of satin in our lives
And to purify himself a people who are zealous of good works

The salvation experience begins in trusting Him. Not just believing what HE DID to secure your way into heaven.
He said Grace that appeared to all men teaches us to deny ungodliness and to live soberly and righteous in this present world.

When we learn to trust Him we find Grace in Him...and Grace is unmerrited favor....but What is this favor...it is God working on our behalf of what we cannot do on our own.
When we Trust Jesus...you will find God at work...and When you do you will be able to confess He is Lord...because you know you couldn't do what HE has done.
This is what regeneration amounts to;
He died and yes, so our sins could be washed away but He arose so that we would live our life through Him.
Somewhere When this happens we are translated into the kingdom of his dear son. So while Justification and regeneration may happen at the same time they are different
He died we receive forgiveness
He arose we live through His life

Trusting Him is heeding to His spirit
Where our lives are changed.
The outcome of being joined to Him in this way is The fruits of the spirit and we can abound in them increasingly setting our minds on things of the Spirit.
If you ever come to understand
That Jesus's Faithfulness is the source of our salvation and that no one died to secure this salvation But Him, then you may understand from the KJV that works of righteousness refferred to is what we do without God to try and secure our Salvation. The Ark was salvation from the wrath, but with no one in it it does not save anyone. It takes effort and a working faith to have entered the ark. But realize there is nothing we did to earn the Ark[Jesus's faithfulness=salvation]
Yet we must put in effort to get in. And so it is what you say that people assume where you are.
In first Peter 3 it tells us what saves us now.... the resurrection of Jesus Christ. And the key is as you walk in His resurrected life you know your sins are forgiven...so you will not have to argue once saved always saved Or what will happen when you die. For if you walk in the spirit the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all unrighteousness. And you will see there is no condemnation for those who walk after the spirit...yet there is life and peace which is what the Kingdom consist of.

I use to argue Osas ...But aguing from Our understanding that has come from..years of mistranslation does not change a person.
Sometimes ...if one really seeks God They must humble themselves and listen.

Not saying I can't believe Osas
But I see the area where it stunts sanctification which is also a part of salvation. Believing a particular teaching will not necessarily save a person....But trusting in Jesus will.
We must come through the door[JC] anyone that tries to come in another way is a robber and a thief.

I hope you accept this in Love ...

I agree with everything you said, except for your opinion about OSAS. I believe OSAS is not Biblical and it is morally wrong on many levels. The two fold message of Eternal Security is saying:

Message #1. You will live more Christ like and be more holy through out your life.

Message #2. Depending on version of Eternal Security you believe in, You can either sin on occasion and still be saved or you can sin as much as you like and be saved. Gotquestions says that a believer is saved while in a backslidden state and yet they say a believer is defined by living holy. When I talk with OSAS proponents, they say they sin and are not perfect. But to what extent? We do not know. Yet, they say a true believer is defined by living more holy and Christ. See the two contradictory messages they preach?

In my experience, many OSAS proponents (and not all of them) scoff against the idea of doing a study on God's Commands in the New Testament. Many of them (and not all of them) seek to attack me personally, whereby they either lie, insult, and act disrespectful, and unloving. I have been called Wolf, Jason666 on another forum for preaching against a "sin and still be saved" gospel. I have also been wrongfully banned on another forum for preaching against Eternal Security. So I know what I am up against.

...

corinth77777 · Jul 6, 2017

Jason0047 said:
I agree with everything you said, except for your opinion about OSAS. I believe OSAS is not Biblical and it is morally wrong on many levels. The two fold message of Eternal Security is saying:

Message #1. You will live more Christ like and be more holy through out your life.

Message #2. Depending on version of Eternal Security you believe in, You can either sin on occasion and still be saved or you can sin as much as you like and be saved. Gotquestions says that a believer is saved while in a backslidden state and yet they say a believer is defined by living holy. When I talk with OSAS proponents, they say they sin and are not perfect. But to what extent? We do not know. Yet, they say a true believer is defined by living more holy and Christ. See the two contradictory messages they preach?

In my experience, many OSAS proponents (and not all of them) scoff against the idea of doing a study on God's Commands in the New Testament. Many of them (and not all of them) seek to attack me personally, whereby they either lie, insult, and act disrespectful, and unloving. I have been called Wolf, Jason666 on another forum for preaching against a "sin and still be saved" gospel. I have also been wrongfully banned on another forum for preaching against Eternal Security. So I know what I am up against.

...

Well what about Ephesians 1:13

corinth77777 · Jul 6, 2017

Jason0047 said:
I agree with everything you said, except for your opinion about OSAS. I believe OSAS is not Biblical and it is morally wrong on many levels. The two fold message of Eternal Security is saying:

Message #1. You will live more Christ like and be more holy through out your life.

Message #2. Depending on version of Eternal Security you believe in, You can either sin on occasion and still be saved or you can sin as much as you like and be saved. Gotquestions says that a believer is saved while in a backslidden state and yet they say a believer is defined by living holy. When I talk with OSAS proponents, they say they sin and are not perfect. But to what extent? We do not know. Yet, they say a true believer is defined by living more holy and Christ. See the two contradictory messages they preach?

In my experience, many OSAS proponents (and not all of them) scoff against the idea of doing a study on God's Commands in the New Testament. Many of them (and not all of them) seek to attack me personally, whereby they either lie, insult, and act disrespectful, and unloving. I have been called Wolf, Jason666 on another forum for preaching against a "sin and still be saved" gospel. I have also been wrongfully banned on another forum for preaching against Eternal Security. So I know what I am up against.

...

I think your heart is in the right place, however your def. Is not what Osas means to me.
I don't know where I stand exactly on it.
But I do believe Jesus is Eternally Secure...
I haven't read all the scripture pertaining to it...If you remain in Christ the rest of your life are ye not Osas.

stuart lawrence · Jul 6, 2017

Dan61861 said:
Very Very well said

In Christ
Daniel

Yes, it was very well said.
And she is right. The whole message must be stated, not just one side of it. She was right to chide me on that.
But it's easier to discuss the whole message with those who embrace the whole message, and accept what Paul wrote about not being under the law.
It's great to meet the two of you here. You do both fully accept and understand it

1stcenturylady · Jul 6, 2017

stuart lawrence said:
You said I only gave one side if the message. Let's see if I can please you lol

For we maintain a man is justified/ righteous by faith apart from observing the law
Rom3:28

You see that a person is justified by what he does, and not by faith alone
James2:24

They appear in contradiction at first glance don't they!

A man becomes a Christian. He beats his wife, gets drunk every night of the week, is a habitual thief and constantly uses foul language.
God will accept him there and then as he is. For we are made alive with Christ, even when we are dead in transgression/ sin Eph2:5
The man is called to believe the message of scripture. His righteousness for heaven is faith in Christ. He is not under a righteousness of observing the law. No condemnation.( Rom3:28)

Now if that man has had a true con version, the law is in his heart, and he in his heart wants to obey it. And of course he has the Holy Spirit. If he lives according to Pauls gospel message, sin shall not be his master, for he is not under law but under grace. The power of sin is removed from his life.(1 cor15:56)
This must and will bring results.
A couple of months later the man still beats his wife. He still continually gets drunk, he is still a habitual thief, and he still constantly uses foul language. Something's wrong isn't it.
His faith has not been seen to be justified by any change in his life has it. He had dead faith( james2:26) that produced nothing. He wasn't truly born again in the first place.
So Paul is right and James is also right.
It's impossible to understand this with the logical mind. You have to know you are not under a righteousness of thou shalt not. We agree. But if you have asked Christ to be your Lord and Saviour, and the law is in your heart. Living a life with the power of sin removed from you( a law of righteousness) must bring results.

But what you CANNOT and MUST NOT do is to tell a new convert that unless they cease their sin/ lust/ gambling/drinking too much, (or whatever else you want to think) God will condemn them to hell for they are not proving they are truly saved. If you tell them that, they WILL inevitably live under a righteousness of observing the law. For them the deciding factor of their salvation is a righteousness of ceasing sin/ observing the law. They don't then have the true message.
Preach the true message. They are not under law but under grace, and see what then happens.

I hope you understand what I am saying here. I think you might. You understand about the pink bunny!
Grace is illogical to the human brain. You must know you have no righteousness of observing the law/ works of the law/ working to defeat your sin to see victory over sin. No victory over sin, you either were not shown grace, or you did not have a true and sincere conversion

Yes, I understand about the pink bunny, but in order to truly come to Christ, and not just for the sole purpose of eternal life, one must realize they are a sinner. Just like in AA one must come to terms that they have a problem, they are an alcoholic.

Repentance is the key to the law of the Spirit of life in Christ. It is the only way to receive the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:38 And if you don't have the Holy Spirit one isn't a Christian. Romans 8:9

This is why the law of sin and death came first. To show us we are sinners. It is also why John the Baptist came first preaching repentance, to pave the way for the Holy One, Jesus and then the Holy Spirit.

After we repent FROM our sin, and turn TOWARD Christ, does He give us the Holy Spirit, without which our conscience is not given the laws on our heart, and the power of God living in us to love our wife and our neighbor's posessions. It is also how we become dead to sin and no longer its slave.

Stuart, you and Jason are both right, and both necessary. You are like the blood of Christ on opposite ends of a swinging Pendulum. But the blood pools in the center where the Holy Spirit resides. The Holy Spirit is truth. That's where I want to be.

Dan61861 · Jul 6, 2017

JLB777 said:
Yes sir. Amen.

God sets His seal of approval on those who believe.

Believe is the condition for being saved.

Believers have the promise of salvation.

11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:11-12

Key: lest they should believe and be saved.

However, those who depart from Christ, while under persecution, no longer believe.

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

Key: who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

Matthew says it this way:

But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. Matthew 13:20-21

but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.

Believe = Saved
Believe for a while = Saved for a while

JLB

I apologize for taking so long to respond to this, with work it can be difficult to keep up. I do believe my salvation is secure. I do not believe that this believe is a salvation issue.

Now, I had given you a scripture Ephesians 1:13-14, that does teach eternal security. To make your point, you brutally misrepresented the scripture. We are not sealed with approval, we are sealed with the HOLY SPIRIT. It is God working in us, not God approving of us.

As you said:

God sets His seal of approval on those who believe.

Ephesians 1:13-14
In whom(Christ) you (Christians) also trusted,(Christians trusted in Christ) after that you heard the word of truth(We trusted after hearing the Word of Truth), the Gospel of your salvation (The Gospel is that Word of Truth) in whom also you believed,(We believed in Christ, Him crucified) you were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise,(We are sealed with the Holy Spirit, we are born again.) which is the earnest of our inheritance,(We are Christ’s inheritance) until the redemption of the purchased possession,(Christ has purchased us with His blood, He will gather us to Him, until He does we are sealed with the Holy Spirit) unto the praise of His Glory. (All to the Glory of God).

While I will admit, this is much like the debate between the Calvinism vs. Arminianism. Each ignoring the evidence the other presents. Myself, I am neither. The Bible teaches both…God is sovereign, man has free will. Yet God’s sovereignty always trumps man’s free will. In the same sense, the Bible teaches both eternal security and turning away from the truth. We cannot ignore one to support the other. But one is greater than the other…if you believe.

As you said:

Believers have the promise of salvation.

As I said, I am a proponent of once saved always saved. For me this is truth. For what God has begun in me, He will finish, this is Ephesians 1:13-14. I believe God is faithful, I believe He will keep His promise. I believe I will be resurrected with Christ.

I believe

1. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

2. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

3. That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

4. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Believe=Saved
Believe for a while= They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. This answers the Parable you had given.

In Christ
Daniel

stuart lawrence · Jul 6, 2017

1stcenturylady said:
Yes, I understand about the pink bunny, but in order to truly come to Christ, and not just for the sole purpose of eternal life, one must realize they are a sinner. Just like in AA one must come to terms that they have a problem, they are an alcoholic.

Repentance is the key to the law of the Spirit of life in Christ. It is the only way to receive the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:38 And if you don't have the Holy Spirit one isn't a Christian. Romans 8:9

This is why the law of sin and death came first. To show us we are sinners. It is also why John the Baptist came first preaching repentance, to pave the way for the Holy One, Jesus and then the Holy Spirit.

After we repent FROM our sin, and turn TOWARD Christ, does He give us the Holy Spirit, without which our conscience is not given the laws on our heart, and the power of God living in us to love our wife and our neighbor's posessions. It is also how we become dead to sin and no longer its slave.

Stuart, you and Jason are both right, and both necessary. You are like the blood of Christ on opposite ends of a swinging Pendulum. But the blood pools in the center where the Holy Spirit resides. The Holy Spirit is truth. That's where I want to be.

You cannot be right if you believe the Christian is under a righteousness of the observing the law. And as I said previously. Unless Jason has had a dramatic change of heart, he certainly does believe the Christian is under the law in regard to: Thou shalt not.

I believe at the point of conversion we will naturally repent. At that point the Holy Spirit enters our lives and writes the law in our minds and places it in our hearts. We are then in a saved state.
Absolutely, well done for quoting rom8:9. You cannot be a Christian un less the Holy Spirit dwells in you.
But i believe, as many others do, the baptism in the Holy Spirit is a secondary event. You do not have to receive what evangelicals term that baptism of the holy Spirit to be in a saved state. As soon as you become conscious of your sin in your heart you are in a saved state. For the law reveals the sin, and if the law is in your heart you are saved. For the moment that happens you have a saviour from your sin. In my view, it is two simultaneous events.
For Jesus will be no one's saviour from sin unless they in their heart desire to live as his Father wants them to

1stcenturylady · Jul 6, 2017

stuart lawrence said:
You cannot be right if you believe the Christian is under a righteousness of the observing the law. And as I said previously. Unless Jason has had a dramatic change of heart, he certainly does believe the Christian is under the law in regard to: Thou shalt not.

I believe at the point of conversion we will naturally repent. At that point the Holy Spirit enters our lives and writes the law in our minds and places it in our hearts. We are then in a saved state.
Absolutely, well done for quoting rom8:9. You cannot be a Christian un less the Holy Spirit dwells in you.
But i believe, as many others do, the baptism in the Holy Spirit is a secondary event. You do not have to receive what evangelicals term that baptism of the holy Spirit to be in a saved state. As soon as you become conscious of your sin in your heart you are in a saved state. For the law reveals the sin, and if the law is in your heart you are saved. For the moment that happens you have a saviour from your sin. In my view, it is two simultaneous events.
For Jesus will be no one's saviour from sin unless they in their heart desire to live as his Father wants them to

This is the old, "what came first, the chicken or the egg."

If the law was not necessary in written form, why didn't Jesus die for the world as soon as Adam sinned? Then the law would be written on hearts and everyone would know right from wrong? It seems to me you are saying the law was never necessary because alone it couldn't save.

In God's wisdom, the sequence of events happened exactly as it should have.

Dan61861 · Jul 6, 2017

stuart lawrence said:
Yes, it was very well said.
And she is right. The whole message must be stated, not just one side of it. She was right to chide me on that.
But it's easier to discuss the whole message with those who embrace the whole message, and accept what Paul wrote about not being under the law.
It's great to meet the two of you here. You do both fully accept and understand it

You truly have been a pleasure Stuart. I do believe we all see through a shadowed glass and that the Gospel of our Lord is what makes us truly brothers and sisters in Christ.

stuart lawrence · Jul 6, 2017

1stcenturylady said:
This is the old, "what came first, the chicken or the egg."

If the law was not necessary in written form, why didn't Jesus die for the world as soon as Adam sinned? Then the law would be written on hearts and everyone would know right from wrong? It seems to me you are saying the law was never necessary because alone it couldn't save.

In God's wisdom, the sequence of events happened exactly as it should have.

The law never saved anyone. For no one who ever lived could attain heaven by a justification of observing the law. The pass mark is too high. 100 percent perfect obedience.

I like the way the living Bible puts it. The law kept people in protective custody until the coming of Christ
Why didn't God send Christ to die as soon as Adam sinned?
Don't know is the honest answer.
I hope you appreciate I am not someone who believes the law itself was abolished. Only that no righteousness of observing the law exists for the believer

1stcenturylady · Jul 6, 2017

stuart lawrence said:
The law never saved anyone. For no one who ever lived could attain heaven by a justification of observing the law. The pass mark is too high. 100 percent perfect obedience.

I like the way the living Bible puts it. The law kept people in protective custody until the coming of Christ
Why didn't God send Christ to die as soon as Adam sinned?
Don't know is the honest answer.
I hope you appreciate I am not someone who believes the law itself was abolished. Only that no righteousness of observing the law exists for the believer

Let me ask you something. What about the man still beating his wife, getting drunk all the time and being a thief leaves you to believe this man has the Holy Spirit residing in him, or has any laws of the Spirit written on his heart? What made him a Christian? Belief in Jesus? Even the demons believe and tremble.

The Double Message of Eternal Security.

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

learner

Well-Known Member

learner

learner

7 days without God, makes one weak.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

learner

learner

Well-Known Member

Spirit-filled follower of Christ

7 days without God, makes one weak.

Well-Known Member

Spirit-filled follower of Christ

7 days without God, makes one weak.

Well-Known Member

Spirit-filled follower of Christ

Similar threads